It must be another nation-centric thing...you'd be brave or stupid to attack my family, I'll die defending them. My home is insured & replaceable, I'll fight you for it but not dieing for bricks & mortar

Gun ownership in Australia is falling & IIRC is below 10% p/household while the US has (I'm guessing) > 50% p/household...?

From a purely logical mindset, how many people in the US actually defend their homes & family from anyone by using a gun?

From this far away, it does seem a little paranoid to stockpile arms against a potential threat, not saying it's wrong - just sounds weird. If you say that sort of thing in Australia (generally speaking) people start crossing you off their Xmas card list & crossing the road if they see you walking down the same side of the street...

We must never forget that history repeats itself though, again, and again, and again, and again. You get the point.

Somehow we think today we live in a different type world, one that is above things of the past. We have great technology, but that's about it. Somehow though, we still repeat the mistakes of old. We think just because something is the way it is right now, that it will be that way forever. Why not be prepared on all fronts. Remember that an armed citizen is much harder to push around than one that is unarmed.

At one time Rome was the most powerful nation on earth, at another time a group of barbarians known as The Huns who seemed to have come from nowhere almost completely concurred the known world. Persia was once a great empire, as well as Greece, the UK, Germany, Russia, Turkey, Egypt, and so on. The only constant we have is change. Change for the better and changer for the worse, but change no doubt.

I know of a man in Northern California is was laughed at by his liberal neighbors as being a dumb right winger for installing a back up generator and having a water storage tank. The one winter when the snow storms came and the power was out, he didn't look so foolish.

There is nothing wrong with being prepared. As the old saying goes I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

I just have to ask, if an intruder breaks into your house and threatens your family, how will you respond? What if the intruder is only carrying a knife, but what if he has a gun?

Both sides
 

I see both sides very clearly and can defend either way. Personally I find that having guns in ones house could turn out for the good or the bad. We have all read or seen on TV about the kid who got a hold of his father's firearms and accidentally killed himself or someone else. Or the father who defended his home from a home invasion. I have personally seen kids turn on their own parents and shot them to death with their very own guns just because they were told to take out the trash one time too many. It is much easier to have an accident with a firearm, than with a baseball bat. I have qualified for Expert pistal, and Expert rifle while serving our country in the US Navy, but still have never had a firearm in my home. Personal choice. Maybe if we lived out in the wilderness where wild animals could enter our homw, but the likelyhood of that happening in the average home is very unlikely.

Still if something catostrophic were to happen in our society that would send us into some kind of powerless dark days a weapon might be ones only chance of survival for a while in defense of personal property. Who knows? I prefer to live in the realm of today. Life is good and I want to enjoy it the best ways that I know how. Be happy and spend that money sharing the life you have with the ones you love. Not hiding in one's house worrying about some ficticious invasion. If it happens, it happens. Survival in those types of situations will be pretty slim at best, and even so who would want to be around if it does come to that?

Honestly, they could have a damn Popsicle stick for all I care. There ass is still gonna get shot and attacked by a pitbull.

I understand your point. I find it a little doomsday but hey, plenty have optimists have been caught short before!

In Australia you can only use reasonable force even if you're the victim of home invasion or forced entry. This means (in general terms) you can't kill them, shoot them, bash them, detain them etc...you're supposed to shoo them out the door & call the cops!!

I however live in a reality that says; "if you come in uninvited, you're getting whatever I have that will hurt or maim until you leave". Part of this reality also recognises that these events are very rare in Sydney & rarer still where I live. As I suggested before it may be a case of nation-centric mindsets that don't fit specific circumstances

My mother chose to live on Sydney's meanest street for 10 years (it's long story). It was a no-go area during the day...don't even think of it at night!! She had bullet holes in the front of her house & acquired more as more guns were brought into the street. The residents armed themselves against rivals who had guns...things escalated (or degenerated) from there & drive-by's were happening almost weekly...point being, violence & especially armed violence, in my opinion breeds more of the same as the arms race ensues...

Reasonable force, gotta love the socialist terms that the gov't tools use to make court cases draw out...

Lets just say there are no guns, and a very well trained martial artist breaks into your home. You attempt to defend yourself against him, not knowing that he is well trained. He kills you and your family.

Same scenario with you having a gun, bang, and he is dead.

Lets see them prove in court that he was not capable of attacking and killing you. Maybe he has a black belt, and you are quasi handicapped? Seems like shooting him was a pretty good idea at that point, and certainly not excessive. Or you are a 80yr old frail woman. No one is going to go against her protecting herself with a gun.

People who are physically handicapped, old or of small stature are targets. They are easier to overpower or subdue. No one is going to say a 90lb 5ft tall woman is a match for a 250lb 6'4" cage fighter. No contest. So that is where a gun is a great equalizer. Most 9mm midsize pistols or a 38spl revolver are easy enough for anyone to handle safely and effectively.

And here is another way to look at it. Criminals are not stupid, and they are opportunists. Lets say they know for a fact that you do not have a gun, and your neighbor does. Who are they going to rob? Tough choice, huh. A gun is a great deterant, and when everyone has one, people are much more polite as the stakes are higher. You would not start a fight with an armed man if you were not armed, just not a good idea. If you are both armed, the element of suprise is there, but you still run the risk of getting shot, which is alot worse than a black eye or some bruised ribs.

I will never understand the issues with guns. You would not try to frame a house up with a 10oz hammer, you would use a nailgun, faster, easier and more effective. Same thing, why protect your family and possesions with a stick when you could use a gun? I can only think that people lack the guts to end another persons life. Not like we are running out of people, and the ones who want to start trouble better be ready to reap what they sew. If every criminal though he had a damn good chance of being shot to death he would rethink the situation. These criminals are not going away, no matter how much "hope and change" you wish for. Being armed and ready is just good sense to me.

Crime is more prevalent here in the US, and it is spreading out of the major areas too. I live in the suburbs, and own a business. I have a gun handy in the places I frequent, in my house, my car, and my business. I had to run off a vagrant recently who was drunk and combative. I had a broomstick at the time, and would have been happier to have a gun. He would have got a beating from me, and I was sober so I had some advantage. It all depends where you stand. Get in a situation where you need a weapon and the best weapon is not good enough.

Diferences.
 

Some of your argument is a bit scewed James. When was the last time you saw or heard of any well trained martial artist robbing a house? Or a cage fighter who commits home invasions? A bit exagerated don't you think? Your discription of how smart thieves are is a bit over rated as well. Have you watched COPs much lately. The average violent criminal is a pretty stupid individual, hence this is why they are engaging in criminal behavior in the first place. they fail to achieve a decsent education and end up getting involved in situations that result in robbery, petty theft, or even home envasions and car jakings. Most people with an above average IQ just do not need to do things like this, because they are smart enough to better their own lives without violence.

Sure we all need to take steps to protect our property and our family, but at what cost? If anyone is stupid enough to break into someone elses home and try to take what is yours by force or otherwise deserves a beating. A death sentence is a bit harsh, and facing a jury for doing so is just rediculous, but we know it happens in the USA. I would not want someone elses death on my hands and having to deal with charges of exsesive force, because some poor guy made the mistake of entering my home whatever the reason. Just dealing with killing someone would be hard enough. How many people have you killed so far? Talk with Vet's who have served in the desert and killed. Ask them how it feels. It haunts you for the rest of your life, and they had to do it because of war under orders. I get your point, but make it with reality statements. I know the world is a dangerous place. Most violent crime happens because people are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Usually places they should not have been in the first place.

Classic analogy linc and a compelling argument. Hard to argue that logic!!

I guess I'm glad I live where I do but if I lived in the US...from the way you guys live it, I'd probably have an Action Express or something equally canon like. When in Rome...after all!

Well, let's look at the genocide in Rwanda. Now think in terms if the other side had guns. Things would be a little different.

Jerry, it's not really that extreme, they are examples, and things like that can and do happen every day.

Here's a true story about elderly intimidation.

My grandfather at 90 lived alone. He was in good enough health to care for himself and what not with minimal assistance. He was slow though, had a bad leg with a drop foot, and not strong enough to fend anyone much younger and healthier than him off. So one afternoon a man comes to his door, asking for money. (this is a nice neighborhood in a small town north of Houston) My grandfather never opened the door but kept asking the man to leave. The man wouldn't leave and started becoming belligerent. Well low and behold my grandfather grabbed his .357 he kept by his chair and pointed it through the window in the door at the man and instructed him to leave. I imagine you could have seen smoke trails when the guy left. Had the cops been called, it would have taken at least 5-10 minutes. What could this unknown man done in the amount of time?

Then there is the efficiency of the it all. If someone is threatening my family I don't want to chance me taking a baseball bat against them and them still getting the upper hand. What if they are quicker than me? What if they are so high they don't feel pain?

My business partner just the other day had a guy get out of his car and threaten him because he accidentally cut him off. My partner then pointed his laser site at the guys eyeball and the guy rethought the situation, became much more polite and got back in his car. I was actually on the phone with him when this happened and he dropped the phone in the seat and I could still hear the exchange.

As far as children go, I grew up in a family with guns, hunting rifles to pistols. I knew where they were but was taught about them and never touched them. All of my friends families had guns and so on. Never was there a single incident. In fact I think most of those incidents are few and far between as I can't even remember the last time I read or heard of one.

I remember a case that was in the news several years ago (maybe 10?) here in Oz of a fella who shot an intruder but did not kill him.

The intruder pleaded "trying to survive with my 2 children" like the welfare wasn't enough.

The home and gun owner went to jail.

I guess that backs up your point as well as how stupid the legal system is.

Here's where there's a difference Jerry. The vets were under orders to kill. Some of them might not agree with the war they were fighting so the nightmares maybe real. But I'm willing to bet top dollar that a guy/gal defending his/her family/property/life is in a completely different mindset. Agreed? Yeah, he/she may have a couple of hours/days of lost sleep but the hugs/kisses from the rest of the family and the hi-fives from the neighbors and most importantly knowing that they protected their family from harm will get them sleeping again in no time.

Agreed as well that violent crime happens for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But that is an argument made for an unarmed victim out in the streets. Not for a burglar who was shot dead for entering into a house of a resident of a state that allows deadly force in such instances. That's the answer to your dilemma about facing a jury Jerry. Move to any of the 12 -15 states that have a "Castle Bill" and you'll be free to defend what's rightfully yours without feeling guilty.

I'd really have to agree with most of you on this one. I wouldn't feel guilty in the least bit if I had to kill someone who was trying to hurt me or my family. The thing is though, if someone opens your door to your car or home, SHOOT TO KILL. Otherwise, you may end up like some, behind bars for simply defending you and your family. And yes, if someone simply OPENS the door of your car, you have the right to shoot/kill them because your car is a extension of you and your property. I've spoke with several cops about this and they all say, if you are in that situation, shoot, but shoot to kill so they can't come back with some sob story and your the one in prison. My home defense is a .44 Magnum Desert Eagle and a Cobray Mac11.
Heres a picture of a Mac11 IDENTICAL to mine.

My friend (who is a retired Snap-on dealer)had a truck in N.Y. a bunch of years back. He had a black "gentleman" standing on the steps of his truck and theatened to kill him if he did give him money. Mark shot the dirty bastard in the leg w/a .380, cops hauled him(the perp) off to jail sentenced him and he served prison time. Travel ahead 8yrs, Mark had to go to N.Y. and defend himself against a lawsuit the thief filed. His lawyer said, to bad he didn't kill him. Could of avoided all this nonsense and wasted money.

Wow this thread has changed subjects. Not a bad thing... but interesting non the less to finally here some you guys speak your mind on typically sensitive topics.

My opinion on the self-defense issue... I believe most of the time you can get out of a situation just by saying the right thing (personal confrontation) usually, keeping a cool head is very important; but generally on the whole forced home entry, or if a person is threatening you, or is acting ornery towards you.. I can't really say, every situation is different and there are many factors to consider that I wouldn't feel comfortable saying 'react in exactly this way' (shoot to kill)... like it depends on so many things. BUT, if I know for CERTAIN that my life, or the life of a family member/friend is on the line, I wouldn't think twice before pulling the trigger, or using brute force to take them down for good.

Also, I completely agree with home gun ownership, personally own around a dozen firearms.

I don't know about most of you, but for me: If I were in front of a hand full of bureaucrats high up in the food chain I would literally feel self preservation for myself and my children (don't have any yet, but you get the point), and my children's children, if I were to 'shoot to kill'. Call me extreme, but that is the way I feel, they are the root cause of all the problems we face, so why not take it out at the source?

That's what the vote is for ZPB :whip:

Too bad the vote doesn't work on burglars. Thats where deadly force plays its part. When one of them breaks into your home, I bet you know what's going to happen. You don't sit and think: "Gee, I wonder what this gentleman/lady could want at this ungodly hour?" :neutral: No, you know what exactly he/she wants: to take your possessions or worse, God forbid. In situations like that, it is not prudent to second-guess their intentions to the detriment of your family, health or life. Click, click, BOOM :rules: