I agree Linc, they should give us the money from the TARP back so we can stimulate the economy ourselves. "No taxation without representation" Ha, Back in the day folks went ape $h!+ over a penny taxe on Tea, it wouldn't suprise me if we start seeing more Tea parts...

pb4ugo, do you do your own taxes? Well, when the day came that I couldn't use an EZ form, I went with a Pro. Our tax code has something like a million lines in it (or maybe it was words, I cant remeber). Anyway, I get it that the bigger the business, the less tax they pay and Thats simply rediculous. Its no wonder that companies like AIG can afford to send their upper Mgt to luxury spa's and vacation.

As for small business taxes, I guess we need to define what a small business is. Obama's plan places small business under $250k. I'm not going to ask what you guys make a year but if you get taxed more in the comming years, I don't have much sympathy cuz if I was making that kind of money, I'd be damn happy.

The fact of the matter is the richest 1% don't seem to pay any taxes. Ask Warren Buffet, I heard him say something like he pays less tax then a school teacher. The last time I checked, school teachers don't make squat so that tells you something.

I think its time we all get our own "Golden Parachute" and get all our tax money back and let the banks fall where they may. Why should we give banks our money just so they can turn around and charge us interest on the money we just gave them for free. We should be charging them interest NOT the other way around. This is absolutely craziness...

Break out the lube now!

I don't make that, but if I did, I wouldn't expect you to have sympathy for me. Your sympathy would lie with the people I'd have to lay off because I couldn't keep them as employees anymore due to Obama's business tax increases.

The only fair way (even though an income tax is unconstitutional) would be a federal sales tax.

You sound like Joe the Plumber. Is that you Joe?

Thats always the line...
I see now, you give your CEO's and upper managment bonuses but when they screw things up there is no accountability. I guess that makes sense, lay off the little guy so you can keep paying management...

The richest 1% made around 8 or 9% of the national income back in the 80's. Now that 1% makes 20% of the income. That increase in income sure didn't come from generating more jobs. It's a fact that trickledown economics does not work.

Companies that make more than $250k won't be laying people off due to tax increases. They will be laying off people because of the fall out of greedy business practices that have gone on for too long now.

It's absolutely crazy that companies get tax breaks for outsourcing jobs to other countries. Just unbelievable... And you wonder why America is in the trouble we're in.

This country rides on the backs of the middle class and at the rate we're going at some point that class won't exist anymore.

All taxes are uncontitutional but I agree. If taxes are going to be collected then everyone should pay the same rate. I'm sure we could eliminate all taxes except for a 18% sales tax. Thats really the only fair way. No tax breaks, no loop holes, no tax shelters.

Now is the 250k gross or net? Or profit? I make more than 250k gross, but somehow spent all of it doing business. I pay myself a small salary and even had to stop doing that for a few months to keep my business afloat. I did not have to fire anyone, and paid all of my bills. I did show a loss, but all of the social security tax, and sales tax and all of the other taxes still had to be paid. The gov't views my loan payments as income, so I do not get any money, but still get taxed on it (asset building?), and I guess I do own more of my business, but it is a hard pill to swallow. Especially when I am paying for some worthless shit bags to get welfare checks, and more worthless shit bags to run the country. I should take the sign off the building and do cash jobs only... Screw all of them!!!

Maybe I will fire myself, and start collecting unemployment and welfare... I could claim to be pregnant and get wic too. And since I am british there should be some sort of grant that I can get for being different. I could also claim disability, and maybe rent my house back to myself at a ridiculous price...

No, not Joe. Unfortunately, the top percentage will always find the loop holes. More regulation=more loop holes. Especially with Mr. pad his pockets from loop holes himself (Franklin Raines) as Obama's chief financial advisor. That will not change no matter who is at the helm until a more ethical corporate structure makes it's way into existence. It's coming soon, just not yet.

Since that top 1% is of no significance to me, I focus on what is. Obama's tax plan will increase regulation, tax burden, and weight on my back as a middle class American (thanks for the analogy). I'm in a fragile enough position to where any additional load may well break my back. It's O.K. though, he'll give me everything I need after I'm no longer able to provide it for myself.

I am not actaully sure if its net or gross as I never heard anyone actually say. I believe the plan was "if you make $250k or more" than you would get higher taxes. I can't see how this would be gross as you never actually made $250k. I'm no Einstein but I would think that even if it is gross, your business can pay yourself a $249.99k salary so your business would have very little profits to tax.

The top 1% has no significance, are you kidding me? How do you think we got in this catastrophe right now? It wasn't from padding the pockets of the middle class I can tell you that. What did cause this was greedy businesses. You know, there used to be laws on the books that made it illegal to charge more than 19% interest, as anything more than 19% makes it impossible to pay off the loan making min monthly payments. This is called usery and the banks have been charging this kind of interest ever since the deregulation. So, the idea that regulation is not needed is a very scary idea as thats what got us here in the first place.

It's funny how rich business people say that socialism is bad but when the system is setup so that big business makes out like bandits its OK because thats the American way. I get capitalism, its a good thing, but still needs regulations to keep the greedy ones in check.

lol @ this thread.

I'm pretty sure Obama said income above $250K, and that its the income above $250K that would be subject to the higher tax rate. Ie, for $280K, the additional $30K would get taxed higher.

Its not gross, as $250K for any small business is nearly making jack$hit. Really you have to be bringing in a couple mil to really start making any real money. Inventory, overhead, etc costs alot before you get to bring any home. Now my cuz has a small biz, has ~10 guys and clears several mil a year, bring a few hundy home a year (3-4 maybe, hard to say...) Not only that, thru his biz he gets tons of writeoffs that just aren't avail to me as a normal non-business owner. He writes off cars, real estate, on and on. He can buy a $80k mercedes SUV, but as its classified as a truck he gets to write off as capitol equipment. I don't want to say everything he does, and some def pushes some lines, but he can still do it. I can tell you too, he's not hurting for cash.

Now I don't think he should just get the S taxed out of of him, but at the end of the day soemone has to pay for all the services gov't provides. And also, even @$400K/yr, he isn't that rich. Not like the truely rich. Its true that the greater amt of wealth one has, the more opportunites you have to exploit loopholes and dodge taxes, but on top of that, you just have opportunities to do things that avg people can't bc they don't have that kind of disposible capitol. Say, throw into lucritive hedge funds, make a huge return, and pay low cap gains taxes on it. The proportion of the countries wealth has been accumulating in the top top teirs (.1%) for decades now and its showing.

I think the big choice in the coming years will come down to spending regardless. The middle class has been very squeezed, and that makes it harder for entrepeneurs to go out and start small businesses and provide innovation.
We can't just shift tax rates out of the problem, but the big cost items like entitlements (SS and medicare) and defence which make up 2/3s of the budget. Obama has made some movements towards the former, but no one is really even talking about the latter yet, and not even the huge repair bill we are looking at for all the run-down equipment coming back from Iraq and Afghan. Eventually someone is going to have to ask if it makes sense to spend a trillion dollars a year on a coldwar-era big budget military when we are just fighting terrorists w/ RPGs and AKs and will be for the forseeable future. With mindblowing deficits, an expensive and inefficient healthcare system, and other domestic issues, I don't see a whole lot of people volunteering to raise their taxes to pay for it. I wish Obama well and lots of luck, as he's getting a huge mess to deal with and is going to really need it.

I for one hope that Obama and the current gov't feel the squeeze and make some attempt to fix or at least address the problem. Poor bastard will be a scapegoat, that is for sure...

Well said Finnster.

I doubt if there are very many Americans who are going to raise thier hand if asked "Who is going to pay for this?". We all want someone else to take the burden - thus, getting out of this mess is going to mean that our leaders are going to have to make some tough, and very unpopular decisions that are going to make most of us suffer.

I for one do want the misery spread equally to all, and ot me, that means some way of eliminating the loopholes that the richest portion of our nation find so favorable. Unfortunatley, they are the ones that can also afford to write a big check to the lawmakers. Thus, we need a grassroots foundation that would eliminate campaign contributions, and ALL of the possible veins of money that flow into it. That is the only way we wil have unbiased representation in DC.

I do like to see how excited people are with Obama. He says all the right things - I just hope he has what it takes to make the change happen. And I hope we the people are willing to pay the price to get better.

I know we have some major differences of opinion linc, but despite all of them I actually like you and a lot of what you say. On this . . . I can't just sit back.

I have no problem with people having opinions, but you're totally stepping over the line there. This is not the place to call the leader of another religion "Hitler". That is totally outrageous and freaking pisses me off. Not only am I Catholic, I would say that the Pope has done more for humanity than most other leaders in the world.

Dude, you can say all kinds of stuff and I'm cool with turning the other cheek but bashing my religion like that is crazy and you can't expect me to just not say anytyhing. Totally inapropriate, selfish, and remedial. You have no business to post that kind of crap.

One more think limpnic . . . if you want to make a statement like that you better back it up with something factual. You want a freakin' debate on this, then bring it.

Why not start throwing racial slurs around too while you're at it? How about mentally handicapped people? Anything against them? Go for it - what's stopping you?

Alright, I better get out of here before I say any more. I already know I've said too much.

Got sent this,thought it apropriate,as the real cause of problems.