I noticed that too lutach.....

Lutach,

PQ is indeed enerland cells.

There are many unscrupulous sellers in china. At a Chinese trade show one of the employees of Novak went up to the hobbywing booth and had the HW rep tell him that they produced the ESC's for Novak. The novak employee then informed the HW rep who he was. Open mouth, insert foot. Novak does not have HW make ESCs for them.


I just may say something to one of my reps about this. He knew all along where MA was getting their cells, and had some interesting tibits about tronics last time we talked.

HW is another case that is driving me nuts. They told me they couldn't send the 120A car controller here because of the relationship with Speed Passion. Now Venom and Orion will have their system branded. I told HW I would like a controller that had double the power board and a few changes of software so it would be completely different from SP, Venom and Orion. HW told me I needed to buy 2000 units a year, well I told HW I could buy 2000 units right away as I can cover Brasil with their product and no answer from HW. The Asians knows how to build stuff, but their business ethics has to change. The battery industry their is somewhat the same way. I contacted a few places asking for some samples and at first they all agree to send samples. But for some reason they tend to go the other way after I send them all my info.

What I would've paid to see the look on that guys face.. :surprised:

Lutach.. Business ethics in China, LOL... I don't think it'll ever change.. sell at ALL cost.. :oh:

They don't want to sell, that's the problem :lol:. All they told me to do is wait for the 1/8 scale controller, but I've heard Speed Passion will come out wit one as well and my guess is the HW will be making them for SP. All I can do is shoot for HV car controller and join the big club: Schulze, Kontronik, MGM and Actronic. Those are the only ones I know that makes HV 12S controllers and up.

My thoughts on MA are this:

They are a dealer of "cheap" entry-level/basher packs, unfortunately they are not that cheap. They tend to consistanly overrate their product to stay competitive w/ other makers and justify inflated prices.

I remember when they were first starting out on Ebay selling GP3300 cells. They guaranteed 1.21v/cell@30A (IIRC) on unmatched and untested cells. They had a money back guarantee if the cells if they could not do this.

Question is, how can they make that claim? The cells were never tested! They were sold right out the box. Well, because people don't have a $600 CE discharger to test them and prove they are not what they say they are. People (n00bs) see those cells guaranteed, and then see tested and matched cells going for much more. Why pay $75 for a matched racing pack that does maybe 1.18V, when you can buy a ~$30 pack that is guaranteed to do 1.21V? Where were they getting all these magical GP cells that did huge voltages, and that were so reliable they didn't even have to test them to be sure? Meanwhile all the other batt makers had to screen and match cells to find the very rare few that could do such high voltages... talk about overhead... Meanwhile those buyers prolly only ever owned crappy powerizer packs or such, and the difference was so big few questioned the claim.

Its complete BS, and most should know it, but they sold tons of packs. Now the price they were charging for a normal sxs 6cell GP3300 wasn't hugely expensive, but it was several $$ more than other makers just selling (the same) plain jane 6cell GP packs. I call it the MaxAmps Bull$%it Mark-up Factor, and frankly its been very successful for them and they've grown tremendously.

I don't think their products are necc horrible. They are just not that good, and expensive for what they are. They are roughly the same quality as several TrueRC packs but with an easier form factor, regardless of actual manufacturer. TrueRC doesn't overhype their cells (you know what you are getting), their website is fairly crappy, but they are fairly-priced and honest in what they sell.
I have, and will continue to buy my cheap packs from TRC, and if I want better cells I will buy Neus. The price is not that far off MA's, but they are considerably higher quality and performance.
Caveat emptor, bitches. [/Chappelle]

TrueRC keeps it real with what I like to call it TrueCR (C Rating). I have their packs that I bought before my Max Amps pack and guess which one is still going. All Max Amps has to do is make a really nice apology letter to everyone. Aqwut probably bought the 2100mAh pack by going with what MA said that they were 20C and in fact they are 15C. That is really messed up. They should just get rid of this packs they have with true C rating (10C) and move on to high quality cells. Now people are catching on to their fake rating and with some guys sueing companies for stuff like this, they better keep on a look out.

I am adding my .02 to the discussion over on the nitrokillers forum. I wonder if it will stay posted.



Since your 6000 pack is actually rated for a higher discharge rate I see it as a fair comparison from one capacity to another. Comparing your pack to the 8000 pack is actually unfair to TrueRC imo, as it is not rated for the amp draw that yours is. Since your 6000 pack has a higher burst rating it should actually have a higher voltage under load as compared to the trueRC pack. It is quite possible that he just got a bunch of bad packs though, so there are certainly other variables to consider.

Just so we can get more data, do you have any discharge graphs of your packs being used in cars? The only one I can find on your site is a 5000 pack in a heli under 6.6c max usage. I assume you have graphs of the trueRC cells being used too since you already know which is better?

Since the poster is getting an 8000 pack to compare we will be able to get a better comparison in your eyes. You have made it clear that the truth is that your packs are better, so if that is not his finding is he lying? I find it hard to believe that a pack that is thinner and lighter can have the same capacity with better discharge performance without large increases in price. It is like saying that I can buy a 4500mah sub-C that is the same weight as a 3800, it just isn't possible. Of course without more information and discharge graphs I cannot make fully valid conclusions.

That is some nice wording by Jason! If he reports back with the truth maxamps will be better. I love it!

I love how he back pedals with the fact that the better performance was due to the fact that the truerc pack had more capacity than the maxamps pack.

I wonder what he would say to my findings that a polyrc 3700 25c 5s pack outperformed the 5000 maxamps 5s pack? I am guessing that the 25c rating of the polyrc pack would be why it was better than the 20c maxmaps. So whatever pack has whatever number that is higher would be better. I guess the polyrc pack is longer than the maxamps pack, must be why it is much better?!

All boils down right here:
Maxamps 5000 5s 20c pack = 5ahx20c=100amps cont (according to maxmaps rating)
Poly rc 3700 5s 25c pack - 3.7ahx25c=92.5amps cont

So how did the polyrc pack give the same runtimes, more punch, and also pull a higher gear (changed the revo to a wide ratio gearset)? Must be because the polyrc pack is longer, by about 7mm or so. (I just believe that the poly rc is rated properly and the maxamps is not, but the previous sentence would be the only way that Jason could justify my finidings!)

Maxamps are selling a bunch of 10c batteries, that is all there is to it. Their 8000 packs are the only packs that will work well on 4s in a heavier MT or 1/8 scale vehicle. The 5k packs are not powerful enough, neither are the 2p 3000 cell 6000 packs. The 4000 3s packs are good lightweight packs for 10th scale 2wd, and fit where they need to. For 2 lipo a trakpower pack will fit anywhere a 5k maxamps will and outperform it.

I can't even say that I liked the performance of my 8k 10C packs. Dropping to dual 3700s that were 25C made a HUGE difference.

Now enerland has some pretty good looking 3000's that are 30c/60c and pretty cheap too. Dang it I don't need more batteries.

Found a great link:

http://rclovers.com/Documents/Enerla...SpecSheets.pdf
and
http://rclovers.com/Documents/Racing_Car_Battery.pdf

Granted it looks like these are olders cell and not the 25/50C and 30/60C cells out now, but there are some really cool test graphs in there (like 15C/40C burst tests) an also tests that show battery capacity at 1st, 30th and 50th cycles of the pack.

I still have 10C rated 3100mAh 3S PQ-3100HP-3S that I bought from rclovers now rclipos.com and they are wonderful packs. This are the ones I use on my 3S2P set up for my Stampede which has seen 45mph with them :lol:. They are roughly the same size of the current 2500mAh packs. I wish rclipos still had this 3100 packs that had out performed my MA 4000mAh 3S packs. Max Amps will not come out looking good if they do their tests to claim their cells are truly what they are and we have seen proof they are not.

The owner of rclipos is a good guy, I have talked to him a lot about this and that.

He seems to be a true business man and it's shown on the prices the items he sells. Look at what Mike has done and it shows how a business man should do for this hobby. Mike offers high quality products and the price is not bad at all.

That thread on NK is getting hot! I really don't think that Jason is seeing where I come from. I have never had anything against them, I just haven't ever seen any data to support their claims.

I ask for info and I don't get it from them. What am I to do? Test myself.

He accuses me of only promoting packs I sell, yet I don't sell 90% of the packs that I recommend. I'm not in the business of batteries! How am I supposed to take this?


Jason certainly is passionate about his work.

Almost fell off the chair!

I have to wonder if he really believes what he says? Do you think that he is fooled by the website too? Is Jason a maxamps owner, or just an employee? I get the feeling that Austin is the owner, but wanted to make sure.

I just have a hard time seeing this as anything other than a bunch of lies from maxamps. If I compare 2 packs from 2 diff mfgs that have similar discharge ratings, and one out performs the other am I to think the "better" pack is under rated? Or that the "poorer" pack is being used past its abilities. I know what my systems can draw, and that proves that maxamps claims are bs to me. I need to look up the NK thread and have a read, should be funny, and full of it!

Austin is the owner, he used to work for CBP.

Austin's response:

The only real fair way to test is to weigh the packs, test the capacity of the packs(true mah), and test the voltage under load....
It is all very confusing because there is no standard for the “C” rate testing.


So Austin is saying that the fair way to compare is to test capacity and voltage under load. That is what Kung did, and Jason says it is not fair. Of course there is no real standard for C ratings, but there is a standard charged voltage and voltage cutoff that makes determining what the cell can handle a very easy task. To determine a C rating all one has to do is pinpoint an average voltage and increase the discharge rate until it gets there or the discharged MAH hits 90% below rated capacity (or whatever). There are other methods but that is not really important. What is important are the two things that a battery produces- voltage and amperage. Controlling other details of the matter just makes measurement more precise.

How about some blind testing? Settle on a tested vehicle setup that can draw a certain amount, and pit all of the various packs that are rated close to that setup. Have a pro diver run the vehicle on a track for x number of laps, and measure the various parameters, including speed and lap time.

At that point the various packs could be grouped in various ways, and a best pack out of the bunch could be determined. One could also check the stated ratings against pack performance from the runs. Maybe some average numbers could be extrapolated and listed.

The ratings are important for descision making. How are we supposed to figure out which battery to use. If you go with maxamps ratings, you will have issues. I did. I can find eagletree info of what a similar, to identical setup will pull, average and burst. Factor in some safety space (a la BrianG) and there you have your info for battery purchases.

So, everyone with a 8xl in a revo geared for 40mpg should be fine with a 6000 maxamps 4s pack. Could I have some backup on this conclusion Kulangflow?!

I had a pair of 6000 2s packs, and ran them in series in the above listed revo. They did not like it. Yet a pair of trakpower packs work fine. Same rated discharge spec between the two, and 1000 mah less on the trakpower.

Bottom line is we need apples to apples comparisions. Until then, all of the testing and graphs leads me to belive the 25c rated enerland cell based packs are the best value for dollar to capability. I would like to see some info that disproves that.

I like bench testing better - much better controlled environment without the added variables of track conditions, the driver taking corners a tad differently, etc. Just need some time, dummy loads, and measuring equipment...

I guess you could mimick a variety of loads and cycle times to esablish a set bench test that would emulate a real world situation. Standardizing that sounds like fun.

Why don't manufacturers just give their cell internal resistance. Wouldn't that solve all these under rate over rate, no standard for C rating nonsense? I always though a cells internal resistance would ultimately determine its discharge capabilities. Could you say anything about the temperature of a pack in given conditions from the packs resistance?

Even better, why not use a charger (hyperion duo and fma 10s are two that I know of) that will tell you the batteries internal resistance, I think that would have to give you a good indication of cell quality.

edit: just notice in the pdf's above that the impedance @1khz is listed. I always thought a packs resistance would be say the average of the resistance during a discharge using V = IR. Is there some other method of testing? I also realised that those chargers measure it during charge, and say that the figure gets more accurate the longer it is charging for. any light on this?

Max Amps should get one of those CBA and run some cycles through the packs at 10C, 15C and 20C to see what they really are. I know normal guys that has a CBA and MA as big as they are should have one too. I know they won't know how to explain why they post 20C ratings on a 15C rated cell. Maybe they can just apologize and say they got money hungry. It looks too much like a "Sponge Bob Square Pants" cartoon where they Sponge Bob and Patrick were selling chocolate. They were having trouble, but they saw a advertisement for some chips and got an idea of elaborating the truth. I like the one where he says, "Chocolate will make you younger."

P.S.: I'm forced to watch it :lol:.

I agree that bench testing would be better, but unfortunately I don't have the dummy loads.

My unedumakated theory thus far was that it didn't matter so much what kind of driving or vehicle got the load, so long as they got the same load. 90A is 90A, right? Like, within the first 1000mAh of a run, if pack 1 hits a max of 90A seven times and drops the voltage to less than 6.1V each time. Then pack 2 hits a max of 90A twelve times in its first 1000mAh but only drops voltage to a min of 7.1V, isn't that proof enough between those two packs? Do the variables really matter at that point?

I like the idea of drag race style testing like John mentioned in the NK thread. I could just draw a line on two ends of my street and do 10 straight runs back and forth on each pack, fresh off the charger in the same vehicle.

I certainly won't claim to know more about this than you guys do, so please correct me when I'm wrong. I'm here to learn just like everybody else. The only reason this all started for me is because I can't use these $100 packs in my Revo. These packs should be a perfect fit for my Revo based on the advertised C rates.

Thoughts?

I have done similar basic tests using a datalogger.

All you have to do is get the amps up.... to see how low the voltage drops at those points.

Keep track of the temp of the packs being tested too. Cool lipos don't perform nearly as well as a nice warm pack. My tests showed a big difference between say 60s* and 90s*

If I had the batteries and some spare time, I'm sure I could run some very accurate discharge tests on any of these batteries. One of my more recent programs here at work had 2 - 6kW programmable load boxes ( http://nhresearch.com/Products/4700-...onic-load.html ) that could be set up for a constant current load so that you could verify voltage under a specific load. It could also be programmed such that you can cycle through current spikes at various intervals. Add a data recorder to that and it would be real easy to plot the current versus voltage in a very controlled situation. I may have to look a little further into where all the equipment is now to see if it's something that would be feasible to come in and do on a weekend. Is this something you guys would be interested in seeing if I could do it?

Skellyo, absolutley! I'd love to see graphs of MaxAmps, Neu Energy, FlightPower, TrueRC, Zippy Lipo, and those cheapy no name ebay packs.

I think knowing the voltage drop at the rated "continuous" and "burst" amperages would be a good indicator of what works and what doesn't. How much the cells heat up at the "continuous" amp draw would also be an indicator of potential life span.

I'm guessing you would end up with something like the graphs of the enerland testing posted earlier. It would also be good to have them compared with similar voltage/mah A123 packs, and to have the temperature logged all the while.

Maxamps does have a CBA, Jason posted up about it a while back on RCC. Still no data from them....


I feel like getting one just to play around with. New revo, or CBA? Tough choice.

I woder why he doesn't post real graphs from using the CBA :oh:. If I had a CBA, I would be having fun with it :lol:.

I don't know why. He is passing anything I say as just "hating" at this point. Jason has directly stated that good news is "truth" and bad new is "claims" in that thread.

I have a feeling I could post up 10 graphs and he would give me 10 reasons why they didn't say anything about the packs. Really disappointing to see somebody in our industry so unwilling to accept anything but what he wants to hear.

Wow. He actually said that?

I did some looking at the CBA you guys were talking about. It looks like it would be around $1500 + shipping for everything needed to test 2S packs. That would be the CBA, 2 - 500W amplifiers and a 1000W harness kit.

Sorry John, but it looks like Jason booted you and erased all your posts from NK because of your "hating".

I keep wanting to defend your good name there, but I don't want it to compromise my ability to get answers from them. I'm sure I would immediately be booted like you were. :whip:

Hmm, I wonder why too:lol:

That's not a good sign from MA at all. Are Austin and Jason relatives or maybe best friends, but if they are none of the above, I would seriously start restructuring the company ASAP. Get better products and qualified people to handle issues with the out most professionalism so their actions won't make the company look even worst. I bashed a little in rctech regarding the Speed Passion GT controller, but those guys handled that well. Jason has also shown us that he doesn't know how to deal with pressure at all. Good point was when lincpimp posted in the MA thread.

Hey lincpimp, look what you started my friend :rofl:. You made Jason have a melt down :rofl:. I now have what I need to not buy a MA pack ever again.

I knew that this would happen as soon as I found out that Jason was the admin over there. Well, John, we all know who the better man is now! Looks like all questioning of maxamps product will be deleted. I guess that people are just going to have to find out the hard way about maxamps quality/honesty, I had to.

NOTE TO ANYONE NEW TO THIS FORUM, AND ALL MEMBERS IN GENERAL: DO NOT EXPECT ANY SORT OF RELIABLE BATTERY INFO AT THE NITRO KILLERS FORUM.

If you want some biased opinions be my guest and go over there. I know that quite a few members from here are on that forum too, and I wish them good luck.

I was going to sign up, but seeing this has made me change my mind. All John was aking for was a few graphs to prove maxamps claims. I guess that Jason could not bring himself to doctor up some graphs to suit his claims.

Who cares, we all know what forum to come to for the best advise and info about nitro to electric conversions!

Funny huh, I love stirring the pot. I posted in a thread that Jason had here a while back asking for some graphs, and he reported my posts to the Admin as trouble! Luckily Serum had been asking him for the same info! I can't believe Jason, he will eventually be the only member over there if he keeps this up.

I can't wait for larger scale electric to get more popular, and the mags have some battery shootouts! Can you imagine what will happen if they pit similar priced maxamps and enerland based packs together! Puff, puff, pass!

MA will be in deep trouble if something bad happens to anyone using their poor quality, misleading on spec lipos. One of my packs made me go over all my other ones (All of them). If I didn't check the pack and went out running, for sure I would be here telling you guys how my rc caught fire. If someone is good friends with the MA team, please and I'm dead F U C K I N G serious about this, tell them to take the low quality packs out of the market right away. This is how this hobby gets dangerous and I'm afraid of a little kid abuses his pack and gets hurt.

Sorry for the foul language, but this is real serious and they need to let everyone know ASAP.

Right there with you Lutach, last thing we need is electric rc to get a bad name from this kind or "rating war". I have had lipos pop and puff, but I am usually careful. We do not want anyone getting hurt, especially the younger rc enthusiasts!