I'm sorry.
 

I'm sorry. THANK YOU, and leave it at what???:eyes: We still have not heard or read any accurate data to answer the question of just what these ESC's are truly capable of:whistle:. Maybe I'm missing something here. If you put a product out on the market and cannot tell your customers what it can do, then who wants to buy it? I'm confused. Castle came up with the Mamba Monster and not only got excited about their newest product, but shared some real time data with us to bost just what it will do in our various setups. This has become a very competitive business and if you wish to win over people to your products then one would think that sharing some data would be tops on their list of things to do in order to make that happen. Thank you for what?? I am not trying to piss in anyones weaties here. If anyone of us is going to spend our hard earned money on anything, then we deserve some kind of specs that make sense don't you think? I am not one of the tech heads on here, but people in this hobby are smart enough to go with the products that can speak to us and convince us that they have the better data to make the grade. That just seems like simple marketing stratagy to me if any business is going to be successful. Sorry if my direction has upset someones fragile sensibilities. I did not start this line of questioning, but now that it is out here and we are curious, is anyone going to step up and clear the static in the air? I thought that was what this site is all about. Getting answers. If this was a question of our Governments operations there would be a congressional panel setup to get to the bottom of it, and someone would more than likely lose their job over it. Of course then our Gov would probably be paying $10K for this $200 item:na::lol:.

I am sorry, but I hate to see threads that end without a proper answer to the question.

Jerry, tell us how you "really" feel!!!!:lol:

I agree that some sort of universal rating would be nice, but it is just like lipos, not a snowball's chance in hell that every mfg would comply. And if everyone does not comply there is no point in anyone doing it. So you get back to having to research products, and you get to read the rcm forum!!!! And hopefully use the search button, or just ask 5 billion repeatitive questions like some people...

Wrong thinking.
 

Sorry to disagree James, but I have been taught throughout most of my working life that the only way we solve real issues is to push in the right direction in order to achieve the best result for the common good of all involved. Burrying our heads in the sand and saying that it will never get fixed, or it has always been that way just does not fly anymore. For God's sake this is 2009 and we still cannot get a straight answer about just what a product can do from it's own manufacturer??? Please explain to me what kind of marketing strategy that falls under, and how that equates to a solid profit or company growth. Surely this cannot be the policy of any company if it plans to stay in business for any length of time.

I am sure that the majority of the auto makers were not in agreement about the OBD11 at the start of it all, but they did it for us. It made sense to simplify things for everyone, and setup a generic way to access and troubleshoot ALL domestic vehicles on the road worldwide. Any business today that uses proprietary stragities ends up losing in the long run, because there will always be someone else out there to do it better, cheaper, and easier and run you right into bankruptcy.

Jerry - They have said here that they used basic FET current multipliers to come up with their current ratings and they are dropping them in favor of their preferred method motor wind limit and number of cells...

Castle don't quote current ratings now and prefer to also design controllers for specific uses - The "masses" don't have eagletrees and just want to know a setup that works.

An objective set of standards for Lipo and ESC testing would be ideal but until that happens i see this as a step forward that NOVAK is deleting the artificial high ratings.

I'll email a link for this thread to Bob. His email is a really big secret--- bob@teamnovak.com He only reads forums if someone calls them to his attention.

Lutach, to whom I was addressing my comment, has emailed Bob previously; I expected that Lutach would re-post his questions, and Bob's response here.

All I would want to know is the part number for the ESC's MOSFET, I did post a couple, but it could be different. That way we can get a better rating for the ESC and hopefully all others will follow.

In the meantime, please post the parameters used by other manufacturers to determine the various ratings that you believe would be important in making your purchasing decision:

LRP, Tekin, SpeedPassion, Xcerlorin, CRC, Castle, etc.

Perhaps, when you communicate exactly what you are seeking, we can offer some guidance that will be useful. We have a factory filled with test equipment; surely, we can come up with specifications comparable to what these other companies' are providing.

Castle (18 (NTMFS4933N Ta of 52A) FETs, 6 per phase, but 3 should be added and that gives a 156A rating) and Tekin's rating already has been posted through out the forum and I posted how the Tekin is rated. The Hobbywing (Maker of the Speed Passion) uses the FET that is rated for Ta 32A and it has a total of 24 FETs, 8 per phase, but in a H bridge only 4 should be added which gives it a 128A rating. The LRP uses the same FET as the Tekin R1/RS and the same amount so they're rated the same. The Xcelorin uses a total of 18 FETs like the GTB/Kinetik, but it's the same as the Hobbywing (IRF6635), so 3 time 32A is 96A and like the Novak all the FETs are cooled by the heat sink which should help raise the rating a bit. CRC (Advanced Electronics) is somewhat unknown and I've contacted them to get one, but no answer yet. The others like Ko Propo, Futaba, Keyency and GM, we would need to know how many FETs and the part number as I haven't seen any inside pictures of them.

Is there any way Novak can test the ESC under a constant load of lets say 20-30A for 5-8 minute, but also increase the AMP number gradually to see when it'll fail or come close to failing? That's the avg. I got from testing a few ESCs using a data logger. Novak would also get much respect by getting your sponsored drivers to post a few number of race pace data logging using your data logger. That way we can see the bursts AMPs capability of the ESC. The more accurate the number the better as a lot more people are looking for more speed and a accurate number will allow everyone to set up a vehicle properly and avoid costly mistakes.

Are these ratings approved by, and published publicly, by the manufacturers?

Castle's and Tekin's are publicly posted in this and another forum. Their rating is more realistic and I like to use it as a max continuous that the ESC will handle. We all know there's no way a ESC so small can provide a full continuous 100A+ load. I mainly use it to determine a safe and reliable full throttle of the line rating. Now, depending on the application, a ESC will push a bit more AMPs, but it'll be for a couple of seconds or less. Example, one of the ESCs I have here is rated for 100A and I've used it in my dragster and saw a burst AMP of 170A+ for less then a second. The same ESC I used in 12th scale racing in a small track and saw an avg. of 15A during a 5 minute heat.

Links, please

Here's a link for the Castle products:

http://www.castlespecialprojects.com...ntrollers.html

Now the rating for the MM Pro might be with the older FETs they had or it might be just a safer rating to avoid people going over what the ESC is actually rated for.

This is what I found for Tekin, but Jim has said the specs in rc-monster or rctech, but I'll search for it and post it.

SPECS: Controls: Forward/Brake/Reverse
ON Resistance: 0.00005 Ohms (brushed fwd mode)
0.00015 Ohms (brushless mode)
0.00015 Ohms (brushed fwd/rev mode)
Input Voltage: 4 - 9 Cells, 2 - 3S Lipo
BEC 6.0 V / 3.0 A
Motor Limit: Brushed and Brushless, no limit
Throttle Profiles: 1-7
Max Current: Brushed Forward, 312amps / 624amps (R1 / R1 Pro)
Brushless per Phase: 104amps / 208amps (R1 / R1 Pro)

One thing that I was thinking is to see if Novak, Castle and Tekin to form some sort of standard rating based on data from in-house testing and race pace with some sort of data logger available on the market (Novak and Eagle Tree for example). Either make a website or post it in various forums and hopefully others will join in and end the higher ratings. Even though they are your competitors, it would be nice to join together to form the first hobby industry standard system of ratings. The some one will have to figure out how to do the same for lipos :lol:.

Why not???
 

Now thats what I am talking about. Sure there may be some resistance in cooperating with competitors, but in the long run it is better for the industry to have some kind of standard to work and choose from when shopping for these items. Great suggestion Lutach. There needs to be some level of trust built up between to MFR and the customer base. Besides its not like you are sharing secrets or anything like that. You are merely sharing a standard measuring platform that we can all understand and use for comparison. Why not?? This is great stuff guys.

lutach and all,

The part number that we are using in our top of the line ESC is the Vishay SiE802DF which has a Ta=42.7amps and a maximum power dissipation of 125W @25C and 80W @70C. Now the On Semiconductor NTMFS4933N Equivalent spec is Ta=52amps but its maximum power dissipation is only 104W @ 25C and no spec given for 70 C. Power dissipation is very important as this determines how fast the heat gets out of the package. A couple of days ago I ran tests on five ESC's. The GTB, Kinetic, Tekin RS pro, LRP SPX and the Mamba Max Pro. The set up was as follows. Novak 8.5 turn motor driving a 6X5 propeler with all wires on each ESC the same length and size being powered by a 0-8Volt 0-350 amp power supply with no ESC electronic timing advance. The only variable were the ESC's. Here are the results at 7.5 Volt input.
Mamba Max Pro 50amps @ 11800 rpm 236 rpm/amp 31.47 rpm/watt
Novak GTB 49amps @ 11800 rpm 241 rpm/amp 32.11 rpm/watt
Novak Kinetic 48amps @ 11700 rpm 244 rpm/amp 32.50 rpm/watt
Tekin RS pro 51amps @ 11900 rpm 233 rpm/amp 31.11 rpm/watt
LRP SPX 51amps @ 12000 rpm 235 rpm/amp 31.37rpm/watt.
Now as you can see everything is about as equal as can be. This tells me that all the ESC's also have the same internal impedance regardless of how many mosfets are used. I did not have time to do a longer time at a constant load for temp rises but I suspect that this will come down to how well ALL of the mosfets are heat sinked to the outside world.

We have been discussing this max current Spec for quite some time now. We were forced into these years ago by the ridiculous claims that some ESC manufacturers were using for their max current. At that time we decided to use the Mosfet Manufacturers published max current speck at 25C as our published spec. I agree that this still is not the real world Spec but you would be surprised how many people out there still believe that if one ESC will handle 150 amps and another handles 1500 amps they will buy the later. Getting all the manufacturers to agree on one type of test for this spec would be quite the challenge and with all the overseas manufacturers getting involved it would probably be impossible to enforce.
All you tech fans out there have a great Thanksgiving.
Bob Novak

Bob,

Nice information. So the kinetic can have let say a max continuous current of 128A or round it out to 130A. Now, since the Kinetic is not rated for higher then 2S lipos, why not use the SIE874DF which has a Ta of 52A? As for getting manufacturers to agree with a standard rating system, why not start with Novak, Castle and Tekin? If others want to get the respect afterwards, they can follow suit, but the only ones who needs to have a better rating would be the following: Futaba, Ko Propo and LRP. Thank you for coming in and posting this info by the way and my daughter and I would like to wish you, your family and the Novak crew a Happy Thanksgiving.

Regards,

Luciano.

The reason we don't is that it is only a 20 volt part. The rule of thumb is to use a minimum of three times Vcc for the Vds of the Mosfet in inductive circuits. This is why I don't understand how in the world Castle can rate their Mamba Max Pro to 6S(25V) when they also use a 30 volt Mosfet. That's just asking for trouble.
Bob

Luciano, hope that you and your dear daughter have a wonderful Thanksgiving holiday.

I am blessed with amazing children and grandchildren; and I know just how precious this family time can be.

Thank you and Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.

P.S.: I never would've thought you had grandchildren. You must be and awesome grandfather as this hobby is an amazing tool for happiness.