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Another thing mentioned is that they(illegals) steal jobs. How exactly does one go about stealing a job? It's always the employer's prerogative who they hire regardless of the excuses they may come up with. I think the difficult thing is trying to figure if illegal labor is an overall plus or a minus. Would the extra cost associated with products for legal labor compensate for the savings on welfare programs?
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Well I don't know about food cost rising as much as a guy would first think, because as most food processors know, the cost of food is not from the cost of labor of say picking fruits and veggies, but in transportation, packaging, more transportation, processed, transported again to the super market, etc. For any food product that is procesed a bit and packed/bottled, the actual price of the food is a fraction of the end products price. We are literally eating oil. That is why I have a 100 mile diet, well majority of my food, comes from well within 100 miles from where I live, mostly within 15 miles, especially in summer. Did you guys know that 100 years ago there was roughly 1 calorie of energy to get 10 calories from our food? TODAY, that figure has reversed, to 10 calories in, 1 calorie out, where is it coming from? Oil. That's a 100 folder increase in entropy.
Rabosi, exactly, in the end I think it is costing our countries MORE hiring abroad than to hire locals. For sure. |
The minimum wage worker thing doesn't fly. Why, because for minimum wage to apply you have to be working under legal status. Illegals will work for less than federal minimum wage.
Again, the issue is with illegal immigrants, regardless of where they are from. Also, going back in History to the natives and what happened is pointless at this juncture. We are in the here and now dealing with the hear and now. Unless someone has a time machine I don't know about, going back and changing all of that is pointless to talk about. I am sorry but regardless of what anyone feels the tax paying citizens of a country should be able to decide who can come and go in their country regardless. You also cannot compare a tax paying business person who gets tax breaks to someone who pays no taxes yet get's subsidies and money from the government. It is in no shape or form the same. I am also for eliminating the welfare system completely. We have unemployment which is paid into by employees. If you lose your job you should be able to draw unemployment benefits (tax free, I will never understand how a tax subsidy can be taxed again) for up to 6 months and that is it. I am tired of unrestricted and uncontrolled money flowing out the door in all directions but the focus of this thread is illegal immigration. |
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Therefore it matters little whether an illegal is paying taxes or not, it matters whether there is an entry point within the wage structure that allows an illegal to work. The lower the min wage, the greater the opportunity for an illegal...who else would do the work that they do If for example you were to have a higher minimum wage, which narrows the differential between min wage & average wage. This would isolate the illegals to a degree, make them easier to identify (find your closest sweat shop), round up & deport. The trade off is a lesser standard of living for the lower middle class... |
The great state of TN has very similar immigration laws to that of AZ. But IMO they don't go far enough. What is there not to get about illegal?
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I also know from dealing in maintenance and cleaning services that there are certain immigrants who will undercut others and then use underage workers (family usually, kids, grand kids, nieces, nephews, etc) and pay them little to nothing for their work. This is one of those rampant and ignored issues surrounding illegal immigration. I am not talking teens either, I mean children, some as young as 6. I am positive that it happens elsewhere too. What is worse is the child sex trafficking going on right underneath everyone's noses. Most want to ignore it but I can take you to numerous places in Houston in which this is present. It's not like you have to look hard. People just don't want to admit it, kind of like the Asian Spa's/Massage Parlor's etcetera which are run by organized crime. But hey the politician's get greased by these guys so the issues get ignored. Then there is the drug trafficking issues as well. But hey, these people are just looking for a better life. Spend a little more time with some illegals and you can find out the true stories and not just what many want you to believe. This is one of the many problems with illegals, it's not just entering the country illegally, it's violating numerous other laws too. It's not like the money recirculates here either, it get's sent back to their home countries. That is another major factor people do not pay attention to when looking at the entire picture. You get cheaper labor on the front end but the unseen costs eat you alive. There is a lot more to look at than just the "face value" of the issue. |
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It's also a significant difference between Australia & the US (no need to flame me I'm not saying the Australian wages structure is better or the US is worse) that does stand out as a contributing factor to illegal immigration for the US |
No flaming here, just a discussion. :intello:
Sorry I live in Texas so the issue is near and dear to my heart. I also have many Hispanic friends and family so that plays into the mix as well. |
Haha...wasn't expecting a flame
My wife is a legal immigrant to Australia...so the issue is close to home here also |
Its funny and amazing how they do cross over into our country but take notice who are the first people that go and take advantage of their labor and cheap pay? Guess who? I have noticed first Italians, Irish , Americans who seek a way to gain monetary benefits by hiring cheap labor from people who come from a country that DO NOT have the same quality or standards that the US has I live in NYS and mention hey why if you care so much about them being here then why do you hire them to do labor an American, that is not working to do and pay him the correct wages answer that.????? I hate to rant but I HAVE SEEN THIS TO OFTEN WHETHER ITS IN YOUR GROCERY STORE OR THE LOCAL MARKET WHAT HAPPEN TO AMERICANS WORKING OR ARE THEY COLLECTING THE SAME WAY!:diablo:AND WHO SUPPORTS IT OTHER IMMIGRANTS AND WE TURN OUR HEAD. THEIR GOES ANOTHER SKYSCRAPER GOING UP OH LOOK A VAN FULL OF IMMIGRANTS TO BUILD IT GO FIGURE AND SEE WHO IS TURNING THEIR HEADS POLITICIANS, GOVERMENT?
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I didn't want to bother looking through all of the replies, but here is my take on this....
I am 100% for the Arizona immigration law, especially considering that I am only about 35 miles (if that) from the US/Mexico border. Border Patrol helicopters fly over my area pretty often, and Border Patrol trucks stopped on a side of the road with a big line of illegals is a common sight here. If you happen to be in Arizona and follow the news, a rancher was recently killed while riding his quad on his ranch property adjacent to the US/Mexico border, and footprints lead back to the border. Could have been illegals or drug dealers, but around here, stuff like that on the news is common. It's sickening that they are even able to cross the border illegally at all and even cross at places other the usual ports of entry. I'd share my opinions on what should be setup on the border and what it should do to illegal border crossers, but it would be considered "inhumane" so I won't bother. And honestly, I don't get why all these people are complaining about racial profiling. It's not like cops are going to pull over every "tan skinned black/brown haired Hispanic looking person" they see. It just takes extra time out of their day and if they do make an arrest they have to drive them back to the county jail or w/e it is they take people when they get arrested, and I would bet money that a majority of cops probably wont want to do that all the time. Also, the people who complain about this law, you have to wonder if they are legal themselves. I mean honestly, is it that big of a deal to give like 5 minutes of your time up to show a police officer you are a US citizen? It's not like it's going to hurt anyone to do that, unless of course they aren't here legally. And my thought is, if they complain about the law, more reason to find out of they are actually legal themselves. Criminalizing the presence of illegal aliens is by far one of the best laws Arizona has come up with yet. After all, they are "ILLEGAL" aliens, they shouldn't be here in the first place if they are here illegally, so why wasn't this enacted a long time ago? Thanks goes to Jan Brewer, Arizona Governor. |
Did you say your wife was an illegal immigrant? Well we better let the authorities know about this.
I see more and more the middle class disappearing, and has been for the last 100 years especially, more so now than ever. |
I propose that all the states that border Canada and Mexico call on all the unemployed in the state. Make them an offer to go to work, if they deny it their unemployment could be canceled for refusing work. In case you haven't figured it out I say we use all these workers to build a wall aprox. 10' tall and 3' thick of concrete along the entire border, with watch stations every 100 yards for an armed guard to stand watch. This would cost a great deal of money, that I understand, but I'm sure the cost would be offset by reducing the number of illegal immigrants receiving gov't handouts. It would also lower unemployment rates and those people would put the money back into the economy. I beleive that anyone who can't produce a proped ID confirming their citizenship should be sent back to where they came from. I have no problem with legal immigration, but those people should be required to speak english fluently. My biggest problem with any immigrant though is when they send the money they earn back to their country rather than putting it back into the economy that gave them a job. I have worked side by side with such an immigrant. The company was given aprox half his wage to hire him, he wasn't required to pay taxes for his first two years in the US and he sent about a third of his earnings back to his family in Nigeria. I find all of that wrong!
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They should be given some type of number like our social security and then see how much they get back after taxing them then they can send back what they have left you have a choice of what to do with your own money but even if they do it funnels back to our economy somewhat and have the businessowners pay a percentage for cheap labor
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I just thought I would share a recent joke I got in the ole e-mail account that relates to this. May come of a bit harsh, racial profiling warning, but hey I thought it would bring a few laughs to an annoying debate that makes perfectly good sense to most who pay taxes...
So in a small local bar in Arizona sat an Afghanistan guy, a Hispanic man, and a blond from Arizona. All fairly intoxicated the Afghanistan thought to show off a bit. He took his shot of liquor and slammed it on the counter, than quickly threw it in the air and shot it to smithereens with his AK-47. "We have so much sand in Afghanistan to make shot glasses out of we don't need to drink out of the same one twice." Amused by this the Hispanic slammed back his shot of tequila and threw it in the air while pulling out his revolver and shooting it in mid air. "Shot glasses are so cheap in Mexico we don't have to drink out of the same one twice." After the Hispanic sat back down and ordered another round, the Blond smiled, polished off her beer, sat it on the counter and stood. She than pulled out her legally concealed Lady Smith .38 and shot the two gentleman she had been drinking with. Shocked the bartender looked at her and she stated, "Here in Arizona we have so many illegals we don't have to drink with the same ones twice." Again I apologize if this offends anyone but I could not resist!:na: |
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Fascist dictatorships or communists put up walls.... wait. |
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1920's
USA BORDERS: We are not in the 1920's any longer ya know. We put up walls, fences, lock our doors, and arm ourselves today, because the rest of the world wants what we have, and will take it any way that they can. These morons will blow themselves up and kill hundreds or even thousands of American people to take our freedoms away from us. If we do not protect our belongings including our country's borders there will not be a USA for us to brag or complain about. There are only three ways for terrorists to get into the USA. Through customs; arriving at airports, cross the border from Canada, or cross the border from Mexico. All of these areas have to be protected by our Gov in some way, and what they are doing right now is not working 100% in case you are not paying attention. If you do not want us to build some kind of protective border deterant, then what do you suggest to remedy the problem of illegal's entering our country? One thing I cannot stand is listening to people complain about the way things are being run, without a viable resolution. If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.
UNEMPLOYMENT: I grew up in the 60's & 70's and was taught that if you want anything in life you had to work hard for it. I have never understood welfare and think it is a total waste of our tax dollars. Unemployment is understandable, but I think it is ill run like most Gov services. If someone is unemployed (not working) for whatever reason, why not have them work during that unemployment period in some way for the US Gov in order to properly earn that right to collect Gov supplied unemployment benefits? Work 4 days a week and look for a replacement job on the 5th day. Too many people are collecting these benefits and sitting on their asses doing absolutely nothing to return to a regular job to support themselves. It is being run just like welfare. More free cheese for the lazy. This is exactly why the USA is in such financial dire straights. Too many lazy, spoiled, idiots looking for a free handout, because somewhere along the line they gathered that the rest of the country owed it to them. because they fell on hard times. |
I agree with you Jerry. Welfare and any handout program isn't being treated as a helping hand, but as a way of life.
A couple possible corrections to your post though: Can't you get to the US by boat too? :wink: Also, aren't unemplyment benefits paid by the employer? |
Well put Jerry, well put!
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I'd liken the "walls" to gated communities. When you drive by one of those, what do you think? "Man, I'd sure like to live there"? Or "What a bunch prudish snobs...what are they thinking?". Personnally, I'd prefer to deal with "problems" face to face, rather than just blocking them out. And I'm not overly concerned about terrorists coming across the border - in fact I have yet to hear of a terrorist that snuck across through an "unprotected" zone. Second, I challenge anyone to put a wall up across the Rockies, and what are you going to do along the coast? It aint all flat scrub brush like ya got down south!!
How to deal with them? I can admit I don't have all the answers, but giving our law enforcement some teeth would be a big help. |
Not totally
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There was a story back about 1 or 2 years ago about a mother of 5 kids who was collecting welfare for like 5 years, and was finally kicked off the program because she was doing absolutely nothing to get off welfare. She went to court and tried to fight the system, but the judge gave her community service 8 hours a day, 5 days a week to earn her check. When she yelled at the judge and said who is going to watch my kids while I am out picking up trash, the Judge replied give her 5 more bags and have your kids help to earn their food money. That is the way all of these Gov programs should be handled. Stop giving our service money away for free. |
If terrorists (or anyone for that matter) want to get in, they will get in no matter what you do. But when they do, you just have to smack them down so hard that their buddies will think twice about doing it again. So no, physical walls are not the answer, but economic walls are (at least for the illegal immigration issue). Eliminate all the free handouts, jobs, medical, schooling, etc (basically erase any reason for them to want to come here), and the problem will take care of itself. Once all those people stop coming here, the other reason for illegal crossing (drugs) will be much easier to spot and deal with.
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I am not against welfare, just abusing it. There are times when people need a helping hand, and I have absolutelly no problem with that, but it has to have a definite and finite limit. I just think it's simply too easy to do so, and anyone with no integrity will take the easy road. |
A little story that happened to me today. I went to the doctor's and when I was checking out, there was a hispanic family checking out as well. The clerk was asking them for payment and the only thing the guy could say was "no money". OK, I was a little miffed, but I do live on the East Side of Des Moines after all. Anyway, I paid my copay, then left. As I was settling into my car, the family walked out and got into a pristine late model Lincoln Navigator that was all pimped out. I checked out the family a little better and both parents were wearing quite a bit of jewelry. No money, eh? Talk about getting my blood boiling!
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Welfare is a right for tax payers, a safety net for those that may fall on hard times...it's like drawing down payments for all the hard work you've put in first
No free rides in Australia, if you are able to work & your payments are getting long in the tooth you get to work for it... http://www.centrelink.gov.au/interne.../work_dole.htm |
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Sounds like a woman that worked for the company I was at a few years back. She always complained she didn't have money to cloth her children yet drove a new expedition with 22's, TV's, and loaded out. She also had designer clothes and the latest cell phone. She opted out of the company health insurance and used the local "free" hospitals. Translation free to mean tax payer supported.
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Pissed off
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I didn't even think of that! I was too pissed off for rational thought to be honest.
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Just think of it.
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Some material for your viewing pleasure. The following links are ~11 min parts of a single video. So, grab a chair and listen if you like:
Vid 1 of 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvsDR...layer_embedded Vid 2 of 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfTOe...layer_embedded Vid 3 of 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b19zM...layer_embedded Vid 4 of 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8JUk...layer_embedded |
I think everyone is watching too much FOX news (or similar)... there is no terrorist boogie men that want to take your freedom away. JERRY, sounds like you are really convinced they are out to get you.
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As the saying goes, the problem with pointing your finger is that you have three pointing backing at you.
I can understand AZ's frustration when you have some 600K+ illegals in a state of 6-7M, a completely porous border, and a Federal response that has been completely lacking for a decade. That said, I think their law is a bad option pulled from a hat only having bad and worse options. Mandating a gov't LEO (law enforc. officer) can apply an arbitrarily "Americanness test" and arrest anyone who isn't carrying gov't papers seems about as un-American as a law can get, and a huge expansion of gov't powers. Especially when the Gov who signed it doesn't even have the balls to say what a "real American" vs an illegal even looks like. Overall their law represents the national failure to properly deal with the issue. IMO, the nation is schizophrenic to its immigration towards Mexico. Fact is we need that source of cheap labor to provide the economic competitiveness and std of living we all enjoy. Illegal numbers peaked at the same time unemployment was 5-6% (nearly full employment) which proves the demand in the economy for more laborers. Mex labors get a source of jobs and cash which is sent home to help build their country (a net good thing for US.) Business groups the marketplace has very much welcomed this labor force. OTOH, we want them to come here, work all the shit jobs for pennies, and then go back to their apartments and stay invisible people. Don't be seen in public, we don't want to hear your language, hear your music, or be exposed to or inconvenienced by your culture. We don't want people, we want ghosts. We want all the benefits, w/o the tradeoffs. I don't hate on the Mexicans who come here to work. I actually have a lot of respect for them. They are willing to venture off away from their families, pay hard-earned money to smugglers, risk death crossing deserts all for the chance to come to a foreign place who is hostile to them, to work grueling 4-50+hr/wk jobs chopping up dead animals, or picking vegetables in the blazing sun, cleaning garbage, digging ditches and the other dangerous and disgusting jobs they come here to do for very little pay. They then go home to cramped apts they share with other workers, and send much of the earnings home to support their wives, kids and parents. My cousin owns a large landscaping company, and my mom's cousin owns a med-large commercial orchard and farm, both in Colorado. They try to hire legals as best they can determine, but most workers are Mexican regardless. These guys kick ass. I've seen the machismos get into races laying sod, so much they were running with two 40lb logs of sod on their shoulders in 100F+ heat until the entire truck is empty. They then brag who laid the most and fastest. My cousin will hire white guys or whoever, but they never last. (Face it, if you are easily replaced by a guy who speaks no english and has a 5th grade education, you have not taken much advantage of this country's world class educational system to make yourself a more valuable worker.) The gringos who do get hired, usually dirtbags who can't get a better job, are often late to work, slow, constantly complain and want to take breaks, want more money 3 days after they have started, and sometimes don't ever show up to work. Its rare to find one who isn't useless or doesn't quit the first day after he finds out how hard the job is. Pay more for Americans? How much would you have to pay to find someone who would put up with a back breaking job like that? No, Americans who are hard-working and motivated get educations so they can work in skilled trades or professional jobs in air conditioned offices with extended eat out lunches on Fridays so they don't have to do shit like that. Long post, but my opinions boil down to this: -We need these people in our economy, else decide we are going to pay much more for less and have our products (incl Ag products) less competitive overseas due to increased labor costs. -Form an immigration policy that has some roots in economic reality and can actually control the flow. The Guest Worker program Bush proposed may would have been one of his few not-terrible ideas. Whatever works for everyone. -Guest workers should be mostly limited to unskilled labor. Don't destroy middle class skilled jobs by letting illiterate workers who don't understand codes just come in and slop crap together for cheap. -I don't care who has what flag on their car. If we are going to ban Mex flags, lets ban Italian flags and Puerto Rican flags too. They are everywhere here. Seen Jersey Shore? Yes, the guidos are real. -Building a fence to solve the problem will be as effective as building a Bat Signal, but will waste a lot more money. Sure, may slow and push some routes out of cities and into the rural areas, but it will not stop anything. The Gaza border is less than 40 miles, and Isreal/Egypt can't even stop them from building tunnels large enough to import cars thru. US-Mexico is 2000 miles though mountains and deserts. Good F'ing luck. - End/re-think The Drug War. Drug smuggling, mafias and criminality get all mixed into the economic migration. Mex cartels get most of their money (billions) from selling weed to us. They use the money to corrupt the gov't, impoverish the country, and ensure a permanent 3rd world status. We've spent $1T on the drug war, and all its bought us the worlds largest prison population and higher rates of drug use than ever. Even just de-crim/legalizing weed would largely defund the cartels and reduce our wasted tax $ here. In the end, immigration will always be a strong force as long as Mex is a poor, horribly corrupt, crime-infested country with little opportunity and people wanting to flee. Imagine the strength of the continent if we had a country as modern and industrialized as Canada on both our borders. It can happen in time. |
Wow
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If you think about what drives people to extreme acts, it's often not what seems the best fit, it may be a variety of reasons. It might be because the isolated, persecuted, ignored etc...like McVeigh |
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When a dog does something out of line you reprimand it fast and firmly (swift kick in the guts usually works), no difference in my mind. |
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