If you haven't seen...
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And from today- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37573643...er_in_the_gulf




Nobody really knows.

Hate to admit it.
 

I hate to admit it, but I have serious doubts about them even being able to get this fixed to a point of zero leakage. Without being able to completely cover the entire well head and the surrounding plumming systems there for sure will be some level of leakage going on for many months or even years until the level of oil/gas pressure drains below that of the ocean/water pressure being exerted upon it now. Once the pressure equalizes between the oil/gas & the water then BP will be able to force the oil back into the well and seal it. Who knows how long it may take for that equalization to happen, but with the pressure escaping from that well head right now it looks like it may be quite some time before any of us sees that.

Who is at fault? We are. We all are.... It is our need for that oil that is driving the entire oil industry to do the things they are doing. That uncludes taking short cuts and overlooking saftey issues to keep the oil flowing so you and I and everyone else can drive our cars, use plastics, and purchase all of the other products that come from this crude oil. Until we as a spiecies stop depending on this oil in the many ways that we do this will not stop. We truly do need to focus our attention and resources on alternative power.

Think about this? It took our planet literally thousands of years to compress and create this fosil fuel from organic matter, and we have gone through a great % of it in just 100 years. We have already used up the easy to get to oil, and now we are digging deeaper and deeper into the planet to retrieve what is left, and at what cost? Many lives will be lost, and who knows how many other disasters we will create if we keep moving in this direction. We as human beings need to really push for more solar, wind, and hydor electric power sources to be used, before we do even more damage to our delicate eco system and create an atmosphere that is uninhabitable by whoever is left here by that time to sustain even a simpe life of survival. This disaster is much much bigger than the terrible pictures that the media are sharing with us. The size of this calamity is only just getting started, and the depth of the real disaster is going to be so great that we may not be able to undue what has been done to our surrounding oceans. Once this escapes the Gulf waters it will spread around the world faster than we can possible move to stop it.

Has to be said with all the pumping capacity I'm not sure what ther can't create negative pressure and pull water into the feeder pipe vs letting oil leak...

I can only assume that this would cause issues of separation later or the cynics could say reduced profits.

Not a bad idea. The big hurdle being getting pumps large enough for that kind of flowrate, as well as the even larger containment vessel needed to capture all of that liquid.

Its my understanding there is a fair amt of water in extracted oil anyway, so not something terribly new.

Only futher thought I had was that with the added water hydrates could form again blocking the pipe...

(bold perthigh lighted)

When Henry Ford was Alive he was going to use Soy bean or some other kinda plant to make their plastics and other synthetic materials.But Petroleum was so cheap and available that they decided to use the petroleum version.
But what People don`t realize gasoline,Plastics,paints. and other things have components from Petroleum,so you have realize that the whole market for crude oil/petroleum is more than just fuel for vehicles.

Jerry, I have to take issue with your assertion that this is 'our' fault, on an individual level. The petroleum infrastructure was established long before any of us were born. The industry itself has been proven guilty of maintaining the structure (disallowing alternatives) and will go to extreme lengths to hold onto their profit power. Just yesterday in an MSN top story, BP has been buying top spot on Google search, so that people looking for info would be swayed/redirected to BP's own site!

Just like the global warming/climate change issue, where we continually hear the tired third degree that we (personally) caused that as well. Not to start a debate on either of those points, but I will not take one iota of blame, and I don't think the vast majority of us should either. Also your point about fossil fuel I disagree with wholeheartedly. This is an area where I have done seriously extensive research, and I subscribe to the abiotic oil theory. That is to say, petroleum is a perpetually self-renewing resource. And if you need proof you can look into the DeBeers diamond cartel to see how the supply is manipulated to keep the prices high, as was mentioned on one of the videos I posted.

I'd go out on a limb here and say that most of us on RCM, being electric freaks, would embrace new technology much more willingly than your average person. The fact we still don't have truly practical alternatives has kept even us in the 19th century in many ways, because the expense of many of the new technologies is prohibitive. And I don't think that's by coincidence either...

Arc, I agree that is about the only method that would seem feasible. But that 10,000 psi number is daunting. That is 5 TONS per square inch. The first video mentions that even if they could do that, the wellhead may be to weak to withstand it, if that's true then where does that leave us? People (including myself) are beginning to grasp the true scope of this only lately.

Perspective
 

Redshift Try to remove yourself from the present perspective and look at this situation lets say 200 years from now. What do you imagine the people of that time will say about this catastrophy from that end. Regardless of what any of us will say about who is running the show in oil right now the entire industry is driven by the demand of the people. The idea of invention is driven by the restrictions of our present technology. If we are forced to do without oil you can bet your bottom dollar that somone will come up with better ways for us to create the power we require to move forward. Looking at this whole picture from the outside the blame for the situation at hand belongs to anyone using oil right now, incuding myself. None of us will pay for the damage being done by using this oil. It will be our children, grandchildren and the many generations to follw who will have to pay for the mistakes that we are making right now. These mistakes are being made with a clear concience of knowing that oil is not the only answer to our power needs.

This world will end at some point due to the natural order of things. That end could be 100 years or 1million years, but if we continue to poison our own planet that end will come much sooner and at the hands of the human race as a whole.

Well presently I'm over a thousand miles north of it... and hopefully there will be a 200 years from now :)

"Looking at this whole picture from the outside the blame for the situation at hand belongs to anyone using oil right now, incuding myself. None of us will pay for the damage being done by using this oil. It will be our children, grandchildren and the many generations to follw who will have to pay for the mistakes that we are making right now."

Following that line of logic, we are paying for the mistakes of our grandparents. Would you not agree with that?

If you feel the need to take personal responsibility for your energy 'misdeeds' then you are free to do so. It was not my decision to drill into the seafloor, pretty sure it wasn't yours either, and I was not offered the chance to vote on it. That's the point I'm trying to illustrate. Even more to the point, to use your example, for every new well they drill there is one less opportunity to do things differently. That is the way I see it.

BTW did you know there has not been a new refining facility built in over 25 years? Seems to me (and a whole sheetload of other people) that the amount of traffic increase in that time would sure justify building a few more?

You know..... if they really wanted to keep prices reasonable. AHEM.

Qualification
 

Look I am not saying that any of us would or should be standing in the same shoes as BP in this matter to receive blame or penalty. I believe that BP will suffer not only a herendous loss financially for this matter, but also a huge loss in business for whats going on here. BUT we all share some leve of responsibility for what is happening to our world as a result of using fossil fuels.

Yes I believe we all suffer in some ways for the mistakes and the successes that our fore fathers have made in the past. All one has to do is open their eyes a little wider and look throughout history at the wins and losses that our country has suffered through in the way of patriotism, invention, and/or in fighting over a piece of real estate.

BP was only doing what the people wanted them to do, and that is providing oil for our use. Of course they did everything that they thought possible to prevent any mishaps such as this one, but there are always unknowns and accidents in every situation that we have not come across previously. BP thought they had all of the angles covered, but one simple mistake will end up costing them several billion dollars in clean up, restitution, captiol losses, and business losses, and the rest of us will have to suffer many many years of devastation to our ecological system as a whole. One can always turn their head and state that it is not my fault in any way, but if you bought $1 of fuel from them, then you to share some level of responsibility. This is why these companies put us in this situation in the first place. You could mirror this to the drug Cartels. They would not have the success they live if there was not a demand for the product. So you don't think the dealer or the junky share in that responsibility?

Some good points Jerry. I understand your parallels between a drug cartel and big oil. But drugs are not a requirement for daily life. Oil is however. So that's sort of an apples and oranges comparison. Let's agree to disagree on this one?

I'm fine with letting people form their own opinons concerning the finer points, my concern here is the ecological fallout. We're hearing lots about a media blackout, more Obama grandstanding "looking for an ass to kick"- sounds so presidential no?

Let's not forget he was on vacation for 2 WEEKS in the middle of this. Could we imagine Eisenhower or FDR having taken a vacation during their biggest crises? Alright I'm off track again...

The oil continues to flow, the booming is being done incorrectly, they are not even allowing waterfront/ coastline landowners to make their own oil control devices, and at EVERY front this is literally being allowed to worsen. This is just what I've seen and read, I'd really like to hear more from you guys down there. Nitrostarter, linc (anyone spoken with him?), JeffNutz and anyone close to the region. Please correct me if I am spewing BS, and confirm whatever points you can!

Wrong
 

You have a right to protect your own land with any means at your disposal as long as you do not violate local laws in doing so. Yes up to now there have been many mistakes made such as using this oil dispersant. I was in the US Navy for many years and had to deal with small oil spills in just this way by order of the powers to be. I think I have already stated that all this stuff does is weigh the oil down and make it sink just below the surface for a while, but eventually the oil will overcome and float back to the surface. I believe that these sub-surface or underwater Plooms they keep talking about are the result of using that disperesant. It is merely a temporary means of disguising the true depth of the problem.

Alright I should have been much clearer here "But drugs are not a requirement for daily life"- should have said drugs are not a requirement for being a 'productive member of society' (or tax slave- but that's another thread) OIL IS.

My point with Obama is merely the massive contradiction in his words vs. his action.

The rest, I still disagree with. A little late here, I'll pick up tomorrow.

Once again
 

I understand your point of view, but your still only looking at this from the consumer aspect. Try putting yourself in God's shoes looking at this from outside of our world. If you view this planet from afar you can see the flow of oil as it goes from the wells to the refineries, to the gas pumps, to our vehicles. No one is forcing anyone to buy fuel. We just do, because we have come to enjoy a life with FASTER transpertaion. We are spoiled by the very world we have created. So yes we are paying for our ancesters mistakes.

From the view above one would have to think "What in the hell are these creatures doing to themselves and their planet"? How stupid do you have to be and not know that you are killing the very atmosphere that sustains the life of your own spiecies.

Some are saying BP will file for bankruptcy. Lets see if any Gov. money will go to them.

Doubt it.
 

I seriously doubt that will come to pass. BP recorded profits last year of something like $61 billion. Lets just say worst case scenerio that this disaster ends up costing BP $5 billion. Sure that is a huge amount of money to most, but that will equal out to less than 5% of last years profits. Hardly puts them into bankruptcy I would think. According to the AP they also have an insurance policy on every rig which pays out $500 million towards any damages or losses in the event of an accident such as this one. So far according to the AP BP has spent nearly $1 billion trying to recitfy the matter. I would think that the tough part in all of this is getting things cleaned up to our satisfaction, which will take a few years of their time and money, and that is once they get the leak stopped however long that takes. BP now says that they will have the leak stopped 100% next week.

Cafffine / Tabacco / Viagra (linc) ? Pretty serious drugs that quite a few productive members of society would get upset about loosing...

I'm closed minded? HARDLY.

I still disagree with your perspective, and don't care to continue this little debate. Keep believing in antiquated theories about fossil fuel if you wish. Not trying to be stubborn here, I have seen way more than enough evidence to put that one to rest for eternity. And if you think you can make it thru ONE DAY without petroleum, or any of it's by products, please do document it.

I think $5B is a very low estimate. Wyeth, the makers of the drugs known as Phen-Fen (the diet drug craze of the 90's) ultimately lost $20B from lawsuits and penalties when a handful of deaths occured from taking the drugs. Phen-Fen was actually a combination of two drugs Wyeth had sold for decades, and wasn't even a recommened use by the company. Doctors themselves were proscribing the drugs for off-label use after one Dr did one small study, claimed it worked, and people and the media ran with it and hyped it. Wyeth got in trouble not for recc the drugs, but for not doing much to stop Drs misproscribing the drugs.

BP, otoh, is responsible for 11 deaths of workers, thousands of animals, including many endangered species, the destruction of a key habitat for wildlife, food production and economic activity. BP has an abysmal safety record and has shown a pattern of lying and deceit to the public and the gov't about the extent of the spill. Part of the eventual fines will be based on the amt of oil spilled, and they've consistantly underreported the extent of the spill and actively undermined outside estimates of higher amts and flowrates. I think their release of only poor quality video from the wellhead heavy and use of dispersants was an effort to mask the size of the spill, and keep it off beaches where it would be more easily seen by the public and elicit outrage, rather than based on sound scientific reasoning given the extend of the oil release.

They have been slow to pay claims, and often underapaid completed claims.
As bad as anything, has been BP's behavior in response to the spill, for which the company deserves to be severly punished financially and if not criminally. BP will be litigating this for decades.

BP has one of the worst safety records in the industry, yet pays one of the highest dividend yields. Are the two related? Possibly. I think the shareholders need to suffer quite a loss for their tolerance of the company being run in such a fashion. If we have decided in the US that we are going to have a low-regulation laize-faire capitalist economy, we have to let market forces act swiftly and brutally towards the company and not once again treat a company as too big to fail and let the populace bear the burden of the company's mismanagement and hubris. Market forces can't prevent such an action, but can hopefully realign industry behavior to stop the next one.

Obama did get BP to pledge that they would pay for every dime of the cleanup and damages (brillant.) We have to hold them to it, even if it requires them suspend their juicy dividend and even sell off chunks of the company until the residents and environment of the Gulf Coast is made whole. If this results in deepwater offshore drilling to risky for the freemarket to bear, then so be it. We shouldn't be subsidizing stupidity and destruction just because gas prices get high and we'd rather "drill baby, drill" rather than come up with more creative and sustainable solutions to our energy needs.

Just because oil is instrinsic to the modern economy, that does not give license to BP to extract it in completely unsafe and negligent ways.

Just an FYI 40% of BP is owned by US companies (pension funds) much of the rest is owned by UK pension funds... So its you and others like you's pension that will bare most of any shareholder loss...

True enough, lots of OAPs and other pensioners are going to be hurt, but that is the consequence of ownership. British gov't is going to lose quite a bit of revenue at a very inopportune time as well as I understand it.

One cannot recieve the benefits of ownership and shared management meanwhile protesting the consequences of failure. Its their burden to bear, not the resident's and businesses of the Coast nor the wildlife nor the environment. If they cannot afford to pay for their mistakes, they should not have been taking the risks in the first place.

Technically the legal cap for spill damages was $75mm IIRC... Obviously that will not apply in this case and is now being ammended.

I do find it rediculous that BP are being asked to pay other oil company's wages as they've been told they can't drill until inspections have been re-done. The reason they've haulted drilling as the gov don't trust the gov't inspection body or industry standards. Somewhat unfair to put all of that on BP.

It will be interesting once all is said and done who pays... The failure here is the actual blow out preventor which hasn't done its job...

I hope what I said doesn't happen. The way this Stock Market is going, a thing like BP filing for Bankruptcy will make things look even worst. BP has already lost a nice amount of it's market cap which I think is greater than the profits they posted last year. I've heard of many companies worldwide with good profit get taken over by Gov., file for bankruptcy forced by the chair (board) members, stock took a dive and what ever other reason money hungry people can think of.

I just hope the good people suffering from this disaster gets the help they deserve.

Few more I found-

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Gotta throw a little humor in...

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Not sure how to begin this one, maybe a little disclaimer is in order. If you are the blind optimist type, stop reading now.

Here are some of the latest numbers.

The actual wellhead pressure is being estimated at between 20,000, possibly as high as 70,000 psi, this is a 'mud volcano', not an oil reservoir. The media blackout appears to be in place to prevent the public from seeing that nothing is being done, other than applying the Corexit dispersants. My own opinion at this point is that they are well aware there is nothing that can be done, this MAY be beyond our ability to contain. Fissures have been located up to 20 miles from the original drill site, and the new LOW estimates are now 4 MILLION gallons per day flowing from the main leak and fissures combined. They may have weakened the seafloor of the surrounding area irreversibly. And every second this drags on, the erosion is enlarging the drilled hole and the wellhead, further lessening the possibility of a fix.

This is the first time in history that a super-deep well was attempted IN deep water. Russia apparently holds the record at just over 40,000 feet (that's nearly 8 MILES deep). But Russia was at least sensible enough to drill that particular well ON LAND. BP had the audacity to try this in nearly mile-deep water, and three failsafe measures all failed. This is now being called a doomsday scenario. Estimates are up to 50 million people may need to be evacuated at a moment's notice. The immediate threat is not the oil however.

The EPA numbers are out, you can verify all these yourself. I'll list safe levels, then actual levels for the three they tested for in the Gulf.


Benzene- safe levels: .024 PPB, actual 3000 PPB, one and one-quarter MILLION times safe levels

Hydrogen Sulfide- safe levels: 5-10 PPB, actual 1200 PPB, 120-240 times safe levels

Methylene Chloride: 61 PPB, actual 3000-3500 PPB, 50-57 times safe levels

These are levels sufficient to knock large birds out of the sky, dead.

Keep in mind this is excluding Methane, Vanadium, Mercury, Sulfur, and many more extremely toxic agents emanating from the well.
Also excluded is the Corexit dispersant, which is approximately 4 times more toxic than the oil/sludge itself.

As far north as Tennessee, plants/crops are being killed by what many think is the chemical fallout from the dispersants, or a combination of factors directly attributable to the Gulf situation. The rain will spread all of this, and the hurricane season is around the corner. They are even talking about having to evacuate the entire eastern seaboard at some point. Please put your opinion of myself aside, this is incredibly serious. You have likely all seen the numbers ballooning in the past weeks, this is absolute proof of the fudged info, disinfo etc things have been far more severe all along.

BP IS the government, they are in charge of police, including having their own hired army. Info is being stifled and would-be journalists ARE being arrested. No cameras, no flyovers, and residents are being intimidated. Crews are being instructed to stand down as the crap comes ashore.

At this point, it may be prudent to at least CONSIDER preparing for relocation BEFORE the evacuations begin.
Guys I am not trying to be alarmist or put anyone in a panic, but God help us this is becoming very dire.
Any of you who know how the EPA downplayed the numbers at ground zero after 9-11 are acutely aware of the govt's tendency to lie at every turn. I plead for you to take responsibility for getting the info yourself.

If this turns out to be nothing, I am prepared to be the butt of all of your jokes. I am not providing any links, you are going to go to YouTube and search, and form your own biases. Or Google (make sure you don't get sucked toward BP's site) search terms such as 'BP oil volcano', 'BP media blackout', 'Corexit 9500',etc. Be Creative.

There is much more info I have not listed, none of it good.

Let us all pray for a solution, NOW!

Jason

Lindsey Williams is a very smart man.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/worst_case_scenario.png

:whistle:

Wow, thanks for posting the info on the toxins we are dealing with. I have been gone for the week, haven't been able to update on the situation. I hope the people will wake up, stand up, and then throw the damned government/oil companies/world bank/IMF/etc/etc to the lions. Let's just hang them all.

You only need look back at the Exxon Valdez "cleanup" to see what the future holds...

http://www.evostc.state.ak.us/recovery/lingeringoil.cfm

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A bunch of shady BS going on there ?
This whole scene is making me worry and sad knowing the Gulf is F**ked.

Yeah Jeff, anytime the media is barred from such a massive tragedy, you can assume the worst. You know many people have been saying for years- the corporations run the country. Or run politics, and by extension, the country.

Here's their proof.

I spoke to some people about this, the usual response is a shrug. Most of them are just too young to realize we USED to live in a free country. Some days I wish I could be young and ignorant and never know what we've lost.

Sad but True my Friend.

I'm responding to this notion, not so much your post redshift...(Disclaimer: I'm not trolling, I'm just commenting. I'm happy to discuss but not argue)

I hear these types of comments all the time & I wonder which aspect of change has tweaked the angst. Nearly every American I know or have conversed with will at some stage refer to the freedoms they enjoy (presumably when compared to less free societies) or the freedoms they have lost (like now) but almost without exception when I dig a little deeper, they know nothing of their 'freedom' & what they do or don't have...it seems like a rose coloured look over your shoulder that can't really be substantiated and has become an adjective to describe frustration

I wouldn't accuse you of trolling PBO, you've been a helpful member. We've had some spirited exchanges :) and probably annoyed the hell out of some people, so it's all good.

I had to wait a bit to see if someone wanted to jump in on that one, apparently they're all just fine and dandy.... so I guess I have the floor for a minute.

There's no way could I answer that in a short post, but I actually appreciate your interest. If only most born Americans would show some...


On the surface not much looks different, it's in the details.

I must say it's hard for me to articulate well. In some ways the decay of freedom is subtle,in other ways it's glaringly obvious.

It's no one thing, it's a million little things, most of them not even really tangible. But I'll try to give you some of the more solid examples.

Number one would be the video above. Whan a nation does not have (or loses) freedom of the press, you no longer have a free country. This is hardly the first time that has happened, the difference is the players are now making themselves known, without shame. And those players are not involved in what usually passes for "politics", or any actual democratic process. I hope that's clear.

This used to be a place where people not only thought for themselves, but also took responsibility for their action, lawsuits were rare, and our Constitution was revered. Even a crook could at least respect the document at one time. Over the decades, and at an ever-accelerating pace we have seen our Constitution mocked, and gutted. Our famous former chimp-in-chief referred to it as a "G-ddamned piece of paper".

I try to put myself in the shoes of someone 20 years younger. I wouldn't have much interest in politics (still don't) I have an interest in decoding deception. Let's call it what it is. But truth be told, if I was 17 today, I would not know what the hell 'I' was bitching about. And that is one of the operating procedures of creeping Fascism/Socialism/whatever we've become. Those in power know that as each new generation is coming of age, most of what they know about the previous generations will be faded memories. That's what my 'freedom' is becoming. Fading memories.

And a quick thought on the Gulf...

Whether or not BP thought they knew what they were doing is irrelevant now, we have a catastrophe on our hands. I could care less if it was a British company or an East German one, we're all going to be affected by this. But we are not to know what's happening at the scene, that would be un-American.

At least the kids know who's running the show.

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It really disgusts me to see people take advantage of tragic events to advance their political views and agendas.
You want to find facts on things - dont go to youtube videos. Do your own research and see what you can find. Look at what the CDC has to say, or OSHA. The chemical makeup of the COREXIT was NOT just released. If so, OSHA would not have an application requirement established - remember, they are a gov't agency, and it takes forever for them to publish anything! Everything from application rates, exposure limits, and how to respond are already addressed by OSHA, and the CDC.

Unfotunately
 

Unfortunately from what I have seen and read in the AP BP is not rushing on the cleanup with all of the great ideas shown on TV for collecting the oil for one simple reason. They hope to collect as much of the oil floating on the GUlf as possible in ways that will make it a recoverable substense so they can get some level of $$$$$ out of the oil and not lose it as a waste product. BP and the US Gov are hoping that they will be able to collect the oil from the surface of GUlf waters and get it into collection containers that can then be recycled into a refinery and turned into Gas or some other form of product that can be sold, so that this money can be used to cover the cost of the clean up. Not that this is the best or fastest means for getting this mess cleaned up, but it is understandable.

The other end of this is that cleaning it up prior to actually getting the leak stopped seems sensless. Otherwise they will be cleaning and recleaning the same areas over and over and over again, which will equate to cost over runs that are also counter productive.

Corexit 9500 MSDS

I think it's time they brought in the big guns...where's the ShamWow guy?

lulz