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Jason... it said in my previous message before you edited it that you want to see a "naked pic of the bearing side of the HB alloy diff cup?
I mind having a little look to get a rough idea...just in case it looks too small to accomodate a flux axle... Do you have one champ? |
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Yes that may be true... but i have heard that people who have used the nova cup, needed 18shims per cup to make sure the internals do not move around???
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Ok found the pics... But i dont know why they shim the cup.. Is it because they are using the wrong spider internals? Ar the internals from the savage being used instead of the larger Hotbodies hardened gears?
These are the shims required https://store.vgracing.com/robitroni...10x0-15mm.html Well here is a guy who used the nova cup... he kept stripping internals until he shimmed behind th bevel gears... here are the pics. When its finished you want the top gear flush with the diff... http://www.hpisavageforum.com/galler...5/DSC_0137.jpg You shim the spiders in to get the proper mesh these two showing 8 shims .... http://www.hpisavageforum.com/galler...5/DSC_0134.jpg All 16 shims + the two for the sun gears .. http://www.hpisavageforum.com/galler...5/DSC_0138.jpg |
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thanks for chiming in mothman... The Hotbodies internals do seem chunkier that the stock savage gears...
i was very close to just giving up and making do with the 10x16mm bearing on the savage alloy cup... Im going to try and find a nova cup, but postage for two cups is $30 from a guy on ebay! Ill see if i can find them else where! |
Here's a link to the Nova RC cups on e-bay (link) Works out to $22 for 2 shipped.
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I think Jahay is in the UK so that would explain the expensive shipping. For him it might make more sense to use the IRC cups even if the alloy is softer. Have to look at the cost of shipping the Nova vs. the cost of replacing the IRC sooner. I think Nova does most (if not all) of their sales direct through Ebay and their website, so you might have a hard time finding a UK distributor.
I have both the IRC for F/R and Nova for a center diff. But haven't tested either of them yet so I can't comment on how big the difference is between the two alloys. I'm pretty sure I remember a post from RCM Mike, when people asked why he used 6061 to make his mounts and not 7075 he said 6061 (not 6082, but very similar) is generally more than sufficient for many RC applications. And as far as the hard-coating, I'm not convinced that it would make a big difference either way. There is no doubt the Nova cup uses stronger alloy, but the question is how much of a difference will it make, and is it worth it (for Jahay at least) to pay the international shipping. $30 is just shy of the cost of another whole set of 3 of the IRC cups (and they include cross-shafts, gaskets, o-rings, etc.) |
Ah, that splains it. I am curious to hear how these Nova and IRC cups hold up. If they do, word will spread, just like it did when CEN diffs were the ticket, and those things will sell like crazy!
If my plastic cups don't cut the mustard, my next step will probably be the Savage ring gear match drilled to fit a CEN cup or the $15 Boca bearing on a stock cup. |
yep champ hit it right on the head there...
i think i am deciding to stick with the IRC cups as i can get 3 for the price of two nova cups... BUT THE PROBLEM IS ... irc said it will be a few weeks before they have them in stock!!! No biggie i hope, i have a lot to do on the truck anyway... But i will be running the Hotbodies inteernals, and hopefully they will work perfectly without any shimming whilst using the BP Ring gear. |
Great deal
on the Nova Cups. $6.50 a cup>? WTF! I just got one like a month or 2 ago and it was $18. I literally just bought 3 more LST cups. Glad I stopped in this thread.
BTW the Nova cups are damn sweet. If shipping is too $$ just buy a couple extra and sell em to get some $$ back.... @ 6.50 you can tripple your money back... I did a CD mod to my Maxx and I used an LST Nova cup and 8ight-T Spur... It has been holding up fine for the first month... (EDIT on 6s with a 1717 and my ride is ~13lb)I cant say for sure that it will be an end all cure to stripped diffs, but I will say that I trust them more than the plastic cups. as you can see what I mean here: http://www.rc-monster.com/forum/show...t=28180&page=2 I will put one on my 8ight buggy CD and the Maxx' F/R diffs now as well. :yes: |
Could have swore I posted that I had three nova cups in my Losi 8T, with about three years of hard running and they are still fine.....:neutral:
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Didn't notice they changed the type of aluminum.
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I'm sold FG101C. So far so good on my plastic cups, but as soon as I ware those out, I will try the Novas next . . . if they start using the 7075 again. Check this out: (link) |
I think you will like them, I'm going with the stockers for my build and upon detonation I will probably do the nova's with HB internals, or unless you find and even more reliable diff setup.
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So Guys... damn i wish i was on the same time schedule as you lot so i could get involved... anyway...
Nice find mothman... i didnt realise the hellfire cups on the bay were made out of the usual alloy and not the hardened stuff.. hmmm... more incentive to just buy from the UK now... So are we saying that the lightning alloy cup from the IRC site is basically identical to the hellfire nova cup??? I was more swayed by the IRC cup now as it comes with new cross shafts ( i dont want to use my old savage ones) and new o rings etc.... (i know these are minor things to buy, but over here in the UK, a pack of or rings and cross shafts can cost an extra $10+ postage!) |
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Hopefully Nova RC switching to 6061 is a good thing. Maybe it means they tried both alloys and found the 6061 is plenty strong enough, and it's cheaper so they can pass savings on to the customers. I don't know how long ago they switched, but I'm pretty sure the nova cup I have is the 7075 as I bought it quite awhile ago. But yeah Jahay, I'd say IRC are definitely the way to go for you, especially with Nova now using 6061. Not sure on how the Hellfire cups compare to the Lightning Stadium cups. All I know is Jammin, Kyosho 777/ST-R/GT platform, and HotBodies LSP/D8/D8T are all basically the same. |
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I've already got more run time on my plastic cups then I was able to get out of any of my stockers though, so it's all good! And the price was right, got 4 of the HB cups shipped to my door for $20 off eBay. I'm also running the $3.90 8x16 Boca Ceramics to further reduce maintenance needs. The 10 packs are the way to go! |
I think the fact that an alloy cup is one solid piece is what makes the difference. With plastic cups it's a 2-piece design: a steel insert pressed into the plastic. That joint becomes a weak area and the plastic fails. Either the Nova or IRC cups should do just fine. 6061-T6 and 6082-T6 alloys are both very similar.
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I haven't had that problem with the plastic cups yet. Just took the back one out to inspect for wear and the cup still looks great inside and out.:yipi:
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jason... what did you say you were running your plastic diffs in again with the plastic cup???
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Flux with a Castle 1520 motor on 6S. Punch at 60% I believe, and slipper locked.
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out of curiousity.. .what gearing do you run on the flux? with what wheels?
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Currently running 5.84" Badlands, with Gorilla tape on JConcepts 1/2" offset rims. Using 20/47 (~35mph) right now. Perfect speed for the tight makeshift dirt track that I'm running on right now in a patch of woods I found near a church. When I want to go fast, I drop in the High Speed Idler (~52mph); cop clocked me at 45mph on asphalt and 40 in the grass but I wasn't able to hit my theoretical top speed because the parking lot had curbs all over the place and I was :gasp:. If I ever want to go stupid fast, I'll throw back in the stock motor, slap on my Road Rage's, and let her rip!
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thanks for that... i was 21/47 with the high speed idler... So basically the same... I still think it is undergeared! i run cool with that gearing! But it is plenty fast enough!
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Yep well... that nova cup seems a little out of reach... The IRC cups are still out of stock for the next month and i am getting impatient...
Im thinking: Vorza plastic cup (hopefully it can handle 10s without flexing) ill use 30k rear and 50k front. HotBodies Hard Steel Internals Should i just use my existing savage cross shafts? or should i just buy some new ones specific for the diff cup??? edit. I typed in the vorza diff cup no... and got this... Just confirming it is the same... So the only steel part on this is what the bearing sits on correct? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HPI-trophy-3-5...f#ht_500wt_764 are these cross shafts stronger or more appropriate than the stock savage ones? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HOT-BODIES-Dif...1#ht_500wt_764 |
I'd say it's the same part. Look at this: http://www.hpieurope.com/piw.php?lang=en&partNo=hbc8019
Stock cross shafts fit fine and are ample strong, you may need to sand a few thousands off the length to get them to slide in easily. Don't take off any material until you do a test fit. As far as the diff oil, the thicker you go, the quicker things will ware down inside . . . IMO. I'm using grease now; added benefit is no more leaks. The diff oil always seems to squeeze past the o rings and get all over the bearings, even with the green slime and new rings. Just been my experience. |
well it looks like my mate has some vorza diffs for me to have... they are stock vorza diffs so according to HPI should come with the hardened Hotbodies internals already supposedly! so i cna just bolt my ring gear on and a way i gO!!!! WWOOOP WWOOPP
Also jason.. regarding oil i was always told that thicker oil, saves your internals. If you have low weight oil or just grease... these brushless systems can unload diffs very badly causing very hard wear on the gears. High weight oils prevents the unloading more so, so the diffs last longer... and thicker oil also has less chance of leaking out of the diff. when i ran without any oil and just grease... i had really bad traction issues as my savage would just unload all the power to the inside wheels... i am now going to try a different setup considering im going for 9s power... 50k rear and 60k front... see how that behaves.. |
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I could be wrong here, but the friction vs wear thing makes since to me because the higher friction caused by the thicker oil forces more metal on metal pressure between the gears resulting in a shorter lifespan. With grease, the gears are able to spin freely and don't grind eachother down as quickly. Works in my mind anyways. :oh: I've driven both with Oil and Grease, and there is not enough of a traction difference to matter to me. If I did a lot of crawling, steep hill climbing, or racing, perhaps it would. One of these days, I'm going to lock both diffs, just for fun, but only on a temporary basis, because I know that will be torture on the rest of the drivetrain. |
It would seem that with a higher vicosity oil that it would resist being pushed aside, therefore maintain lubrication and a small layer between the gears better than a lighter oil. Thus it would reduce the amount of metal on metal contact. But then again I'm not a chemist either.
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i have just got the vorza diffs... i need to open them up and have a little look..
My 60k diff oil has just arrived, so ill use that in teh front and 50k in the rear.... Ill let you know how it handles and how badly the oil leaks out... Ill use new o rings and plenty of green slime. |
I have been taking apart my vorza diffs... THEY ARE MUCH BETTER ALL AROUND OTHER THAN THE RING GEAR! Remember the vorza stock internal gears are the HOT BODIES HARDENED STEEL INTERNALS... and there is an ever so slight difference in thickness. I took plenty of pics to compare... VORZA VS SAVAGE DIFFS (all vorza parts are on the left and savage on the right of the pics Diff Mess http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/a...2-12145224.jpg Firstly i will say that the vorza diff cup, although plastic... is extremely ridgid, and due to the design, actually has more material. So i have no problems using a plastic cup knowing it is this tough. You will notice this in the pics. Notice in the pic below. The steel cap which allows the vorza cup to use an 8x16x5mm bearing. Also notice the grub screw. This allows the use of a larger pin to hold the sun gears in place, dispersing the force over a larger surface area much better. (i snapped these pins often with the shorter savage pins. Pics will show this furthur down. http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/a...2-12145301.jpg http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/a...2-12145331.jpg http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/a...2-12145403.jpg Spider gears are ever so slightly thicker. Maybe not noticeable on camera, but in person you can notice a slight difference. Also notice the longer axle pin! Also the washers that go behind the spider gears are twice as thick as the savage ones and are not flexible. http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/a...2-12145705.jpg http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/a...2-12145731.jpg Sun gears... slight difference again.. .vorza on left... ever so slightly more robust than the savage. http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/a...2-12145824.jpg http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/a...2-12145904.jpg AXLES - obviously there is going to be a differnce... but i believe the strength of both seems quite equal... There is an obvious difference in length in the picture below... http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/a...2-12145937.jpg But the actual internal thickness of the axles are the same!!! one is just larger than the other. I believe if i did carry out the LST Hub conversion on the savage (thanks to linc!) i believe these axles would work fit well with the lst CVD and i would most likely use the vorza cup... BUT if because the vorza cup is a little shorter than the flux cup, and the LST CVD falls out of the vorza cup upon turning, then i guess i will need to use an HD Savage cup rather than the SHD cup... http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/a...2-12150016.jpg |
RING GEARS obviously there is going to be a huge difference... but more importantly, yes the BP gear fits tightly and all screw holes line up perfectly with the vorza cup http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/a...2-12150120.jpg http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/a...2-12150135.jpg Picture of the BP Gear on the vorza cup with the vorza axle on left and SHD savage axle on right. http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/a...2-12150252.jpg I just want to say thanks to everyone for the help. I will be using this diff setup in my 9s xxl flux and will report how well everything lasts. if you have any questions... or things you want to point out... please do so... im not assembling these up yet as i am unsure as to what axle i need to use with the lst cvds.... |
Good job on the write up.
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Nice comparison pics. I have a Vorza diff for the center diff in my new build but your making me think that I should try them for front\rear as well.
Only concern I have is the screws backing out as someone else mentioned. When I put my Vorza center diff together I used some slightly longer screws I had spare and they did up nice and tight. The screw holes in the case were much longer than the default screws if I remember correctly. This should also help the case flex less but as you say it is already very rigid. |
cheers jason
dv, honestly i found the screws stiffer to get out of the plastic cup rather than the alloy cup. i had some bad experiences with my alloy cups and screws backing out! i believe these plastic ones could cure my problems. fingers crossed |
So how is this working for you? I just blew out the rear diff today. Basically it looks like just pick up vorza diffs and replace the outdrives with the savage one's and bolt up the ring gears?
Thanks. |
Can't believe I missed this thread (altho my Sav has been in peices for about a year...)
The only thing left I didn't like about the sav diff after the BP gears came out was the spiders. Actually ate more of those than ring gears. Very nice upgrade. Great write up |
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