@speedy; did you ever ran/had an XL motor?

The novak hv's are rather weak; they compensate it with a higher RPM, but this will result in more heat and the controller needs to work harder as well. (higher losses)

on the novak; the magnet is too small to deliver a 1800w burst like an XL can do; not to mention the torque difference with both motors.

I'm not saying they are bad, but they just don't have got the balls of an XL motor; Period.

I just measured my 7XL and 9XL, and the bearing is perfect centered. What did you used to measure yours and how did you do it?

that would work at this point? the hvmaxx is a two pole motor? the problem is with neu motors. it works without the sensor ofcourse, but the weak part of the hvmaxx setup isn't the controller. Griffinru used a 7XL on his novak controller, and it had more power and torque than the original motor. (he used the hvmaxx motor as a sensor)

A buggy has got a way too low gearing ratio for a hvmaxx; the kv is simple too high.

Linky? How exactly did he have that setup- sounds rather interesting, to say the least. I wander if the HvMaxx esc could handle a higher voltage if the bec was disabled & a ubec employed?....:024:

Cheers dude.

Yes but later he got the sensored xl motor

Too slow. I read up about the rather amazing HvMaxx/ Fiegao experiment and it seems whilstt it worked, the HvMaxx needs a bit of work done to handle the higher temps caused by running a hot motor such as a 7xl. The sensored fiegos are rather cool, but hard too get hold of (just a pic on their site, special order only which is a shame & hassle since I would like a selection to chose from, rather than guessing at specs). Something to look forward to in the future, although a 5/6s Velineon would seem like the most ideal solution to running sensored/sensorless Bl motors. Bring it on Traxxas, before anyone else beats you to it and gets my money first!

The HvMaxx esc is very capable, and if you swapped over the cap for a 35v low esr version (or 2 or 3), and added a bit of meat to some areas of the pcb traces inside, it will easily do 16 cells, maybe more. I would love to get hold of a setup on ebay for dirt cheap (say someone broke their truck and wanted rid, or snapped the motor shaft etc), then i could have a play without fear of killing my only system....

I thought I just said that the novak motors (at least the ones with the sintered rotors) don't have overheating issues and the feigaos do. Also I never denied the fact that the feigao xl motors are more powerful. My point was efficiency. The feigao motors have a wide gearing range but, there isn't a gear ratio that doesn't create heat. The novak motors heat up only when they are overgeared. All you have to do to fix the torque problem w/ the novak motors is GEAR LOWER. Since a hv4.5 has more than twice the kv as an 8xl, there's a lot of rpm ot spare. Before you fire back at me at how lower rpms are more efficient. I'm still willing to bet that a novak motor spinning at 60,000 rpm is more efficient than a feigao motor spinning at 35,000 rpm. Plus the design is completely different so their "sweet spots" are at different rpms. Also, what are you using to get a 50 mph 4s powered monster, whose motor DOES NOT overheat and is not a neu or a lehner. I hope you are not referring to the 8xl, because I've never heard of a motor that pulls 11:1 FDR's in a monster truck, because that's what it would take using 6.5" tall tires. I apologize if I sounded harsh.

Harsh no, just annoyed. I have to agree with you; the Hvmaxx does have a high KV rating (4800 or 4400 models), but then thats the way Novak designed it to be. The trouble here is I think people are trying to compare apples and oranges (I hate that expression but its handy). Example:

An Airel Atom only has a bike engine in the back, yet can do 140mph+ because its light. A Ferrari has a much more powerful car engine under the bonnet, and can do 180mph+

The point here is the smaller bike engine makes its power with high revs, which allows it to propel the Atom to a very respectable speed. The Ferrari however uses a much larger engine with lower revs to make its power & speed the car along. Now think about the HVMaxx & Feigaos/ lehners etc.... You see my point?

Incidently:

Differential Ratio: 2.8461538461538462
Transmission Ratio: 2.769230769230769
Other Ratio: 1
Spur Tooth Count: 66
Pinion Tooth Count: 17
Total Voltage: 14.4
Motor KV: 4400
Tire Diameter (inches): 6.5
Tire Ballooning (inches): 0
Motor Current Draw: 0
Motor coil Ω: 0
Spur/Pinion Ratio: 3.88 : 1
Total Ratio: 30.59937 : 1
Tire Circumference (inches): 20.42 inches (518.68mm)
Total Motor Speed: 63360 RPM
Vehicle Speed: 40.04 MPH (64.32km/h)
Effective Speed Rate: 2.78mph/V (4.47kmh/V)
Effective KV Value: 4400

This is my current setup- I am going to the park tomorrow since the weather is ment to be very good- video will follow.

EDIT: Because ZPB is a car/bike geek, and caught me out....

speedybl; please tell me; Did you ever HAD an XL which you tested at different gearing ratio's?

I used to run an 8XL in a savage locked in 2nd gear, on 16 cells and it barely got warm after two batterypacks.

I have got a hvmaxx laying here, perhaps i can upgrade it with a new rotor and report back, but on the other hand; i'm not too keen on the 3.2mm shafts, and the high kv isn't my bag..

what temps and what speeds are you getting from your hvmaxx?

When I posted initially, I was referring to what I have read over the past two years. I have never actually driven either an 8xl or hv. Also, im refering to the HV4.5 (4.5 turns), not the 4400 which is 6.5 turns and only actually has about 3100 kv.

Hv4.5 = 4800kv
HV4400 = 4400kv
Hv6.5 = 3100kv

I believe using the 6.5 would be an ideal solution to heat issues, since it has a lower kv rating & more torque than the others, so a greater input voltage could be used to generate the rpms, rather than a higher kv motor which draws more current = heat. I will have to wait until I get my new setup in a few months to compare the two systems, but each system has its own merrits.

I wonder if it would be worth it to compare all three motors on one ESC. Of course, it would have to be a sensorless ESC to compare the XL motor...

I dont think it works that way. Power is power. Rpm is one component of power and torque is the other. Unless you are reaching the mechanical limits of the motor, gearing is used to compensate one for the other and that's all that matters. The 4.5 is more powerful than the 6.5, meaning its more efficient at higher currents. Of course the 6.5 will run cooler, but that's just because its a slower motor. For instance, the 6.5 might run cooler when geared to go less than say 30-35 mph, but for any speeds greater than that, the 4.5 will run cooler. Also, I assure you that the hv4400 does not have 4400 kv. The ss5800 definately didn't have 5800 kv. In fact it was more like 4200 geared high. Honestly I don't know how novak came up with those original numbers. The numbers they supply now seem to be correct. They now list the ss5800's kv as 5000kv, which seems right for an unloaded value.

You know, I'm pretty sure I click 'submit reply'

That's the best way to answer the question. Of course we need a non biased opinion too and actual radar testings would be best.

Sorry for being a pain, but I couldn't help it.
The Ariel Atom has a Honda Civic Type R engine in it and the faster version is supercharged, but yes the Honda engines rev pretty high.
Most Ferrari engines make most of there horsepower and torque at high rpm so I'd say the xl's are a bit more like a big V8 chev or something.
I know what your saying about the HVMaxx compared to xl's and other low kv high torque motors and I kind of agree. But also the e-maxx isn't a light car, you can put a V8 in a big pick up truck, but you wouldn't put the honda civic engine in it. For reliability and fuel economy heavy vehicles usually use big engines with torque rather than small engines with rpm.
Personally I like my 1700kv neu 1515, but I'm not trying to say the novak's aren't that good, because I haven't seen them run. If you get it running so your happy with it then that's what's important.

That Atoms in the States use GM Ecotecs.

Oh, I didn't know that. What size engines are they 2L, 2.2L?

They are supercharged 2.0l versions. Brammo sells them over here. They also have some neat projects of their own. You should check them out if your into 1:1 scale toys too.

Hmmm, that's what I meant when i said "I was sure I clicked 'submit reply'"


Someone with the power thinks my comments aren't worth it...

I have heard of those motors, but nothing about them in Australia, but I haven't really looked. The only engines here that I know of that are called Ecotecs are the V6 3.8L engines that are in the 95 to 2003 (around those years) Holden Commodores (I have one in my 96 Commodore and it's a good all round engine). Holden is part of GM. There is a supercharged version of this engine as well.
Well that was probably some useless information for you, but anyway.
Oh yeah, HV-Maxx 4.5 or MM and 9xl?

Unbeleavable..

I deleted your post.

I don't think it was very necessary to start discussing 1:1 cars. If you disagree, feel free to PM me.

Great to know you know your stuff on 1:1 cars, but in this thread it was just useless information IMO. (not worth it, to use your words) Someone used an incorrect comparison, So what.. The point is clear.

@speedy 'especially if castle is releasing software to handle the novak motors?'

what do you mean by that?

and did you ever had a novak HV to test? or is the XL vs Novak HV only based on thing you read about it? because a real life test/comparison would be somewhat more fair, agree?

but yeah, a fair test would be the best way to solve this dispute. Also, during the last few months, castle has claimed that they will release software for the mamba max to properly run the novak motors.

Hmm. What I should have said is a HVMaxx in a STOCK E-maxx is like the Atom (lightweight/high revs/small engine), and the XL motors are like the Ferrari (big motor/bigger car). Whatever. As for the HV KV ratings- that is what is stated on the Novak website, and that is what it says in my instructions- HV4400 has 4400kv. I doubt Novak cocked up their calculations, and I imagine thats why the introduced the 4.5 motor for more speed/shorter runs times, and the 6.5 motor for lesser speed and longer runtimes. Without speaking to Novak directly I cant say whether the 6.5 has more torque, but generally speaking I thought lower kv motors turned slower & had more torque- that seems to be the way XL motors work so it only makes sense that the HV motors work that way too? Could be mistaken though....

What is the problem with the mm running a novak? since it's a simple 2 pole motor?

are you sure this is not about the neu motors?

Might be something to do with the Novak being sensored- need a software updated to get around the sensor issue. Strange though, since I can understand a sensored esc not liking a sensorless motor, but t'other way around?..... I dunno.

The sensors are totally seperate from the motor. Sensors aside, a BL motor is a BL motor. The only difference I can think of is that a sensored motor probably has shorter coils than a sensorless motor of the same length because of the extra room needed for the sensor section.

Basic rule of thumb is that a sensored ESC can only run sensored motors, but a sensorless ESC can run any three-phase motor (as long as the proper voltage and current ratings are observed).

I thought that might be the case, in which case the mm/novak software update issue may be to do with motor timing? In any case the HV motors are about in the same kv range (high kv at any rate), so should work well I reckon.

I can tell you from personal experience from having purchased the original HV4400 that it was difficult to keep cool in my modest Revo. Once I upgraded the rotor it was like a different motor--more powerful (modest amount), but it ran a ton cooler. I usually run this for about 40 minutes (8AH lipos) without it getting too warm on a tight track. Also, the KV numbers are misleading, because I had to gear down when I upgraded the rotor.

What is the MM/Novak update? I thought the only issue was with the MM/Neu? AFAIK, the incompatibility is with the slotted rotors of the Neu. Is the Novak built like this as well?

The software that I am speaking of is for those who want to run the novak velociti motors for 1/10 scale. The fact that it is sensored isn't the problem. The fact that the motors are wye wound and have steel stators is what causes them not to run smoothly with the MM and its current software. The HV motors are basically the same as the velociti motors, but with longer cans, so I assume the new software will do the trick for them just as well.

Suicideneil, again HV4400 does not have 4400 kv. I still have no idea how novak came up with those numbers. I know for a fact that the HV6.5 is the exact same motor as the HV4400, but with a sintered rotor and a ribbed can, and I know that my ss5800 powered xxx4 did not go 55 mph with 7 cells, because that is how fast it would have gone if the kv was really 5800. Even my feigao 380c 9t, which is rated at 4400 kv, was a tad faster than the ss5800 geared the same.

You seem very certain about that, but how could Novak cock up their specs like that? Just doesnt make any sense to me. Matters not though, I have my heart set on the new MGM controller & an 8xl- batteries is the only issue now = need lots of new ones since the 8xl will work best on 16 cells.
Novak really should bring out an XL can HV motor oe two, but they seem happy to cater to the stock size/weight users..... shame.

Try and calculate the power of ss5800 using the advertised values (.45 oz*in/amp kt, 5800 kv) and you get more output power than input power (volts x amps). I wont go into the math now, but you see my point. sorry im in a rush. Ill explain why im brought this up initally later

Well; most likely novak gives their kvratings to an unloaded motor.

That didn't take too long to have answered; yes, the novak motors rate their kv-values unloaded.

Please do! Im not a maths person really, but I would be very interested in seeing how much power in oz*in/amps the HV motors have compared to the Xl motors- the 7xl & 8xl in particular. Might prove very useful in calculating gear ratios- IE how much more I can gear up an XL motor, compared to a HV to make the most of the extra torque.:024:

You might want to try contacting the manufacturer about the torque constant value You should also ask for each motor, the torque at peak power. EDIT: I guess that depends on voltage...

First there are many things to consider and i wont explain all of them in this post. Ideally, if a motor were to be 100% efficient, it would put out the same amount of power (force x velocity) as power from the battery (volts x amps). As you know, more volts = proportionally more rpm and more amps = proportionally more torque. Torque is measured from a certain distance away from the pivot point so lets take our measurements 1 meter away from the center of the shaft to make it simple. Now kv values are given for all motors and torque values are not explicitly given, but you will see why it doesn't matter in a minute. First, kv must me converted in to velocity. 1 rpm = 2pi/60 radians per second = 2pi/60 meters per second 1 meter away from the center of the shaft. All you have to do now is find what torque value multiplied by that velocity will equal the volts x amps. For instance, if you had a 1000 kv motor and applied 10 volts and it drew 10 amps, power would be 100 watts, velociti (radians per second) would be 2 x 10000pi/60 ~1047 meters per second. Solve the equation 100 = 1047x and x ~ .0955 newtons of force 1 meter away from the shaft. If you do this equation again for a 2000 kv motor on the same volts and amps, you get half the torque. So, torque in newton meters per amp (nm/amp) ~ 9.55/motor kv. Once converted to oz*in/amp, kt ~ 1350/kv. This works for all brushless motors. To put this in perspective, the 8xl which has roughly 2100 kv will have more than twice the kt as the HV4.5 which has 4800 kv. That means if both motors pulled the same number of amps, the 8xl would have more than twice the torque and ideally (assuming equal voltage also) both motors would have the same power output.

Brushless motor Kv. is irrelevant in torque constant value... you can have two motors of the same Kv. and both can worlds difference in torque constant.

It's kinda hard to follow your post though...?