While I would love to see a magazine do a legitimate honest battery shoot-out, would you ever expect the large$t battery adverti$er to lo$e a battle?

I'd like to see a third party test them all that isn't getting paid by any of the contenders.

Aww come on now! I try my best over there! :wink:

Seriously, there really should be impartial 3rd party testing done on all lipo packs to ensure customer safety and to help them pick the best pack for their application.

Hey Brian and anybody else, what would you think about using a fixed airplane prop on a bench to do the testing? I could do no throttle - half throttle - full throttle - half throttle - no throttle runs timed at 5 seconds each for 10 minutes or something like that.

Thoughts?

I hate to say this but I'm predicting that kulangflow is going to disappear from the NK forum shortly... Jason has backed himself into a corner that he cannot BS his way out of.

Kulangflow I think that last graph you posted perfectly shows why you are asking the questions that Jason does not want to answer. That pack is performing so far below specs no matter what excuses are used to justify the results its pathetic.

That will be my test for continuous load, prop and ESC.


My last deleted post there:

Jason's response was along the lines that I have no proof to my claims, even though I have based my "claims" on empirical data. I am sending an email to Austin right now, I feel that he should know the perspective of one business owner to another. Maybe he will be interested in my data.


Now I am IP blocked

Jason's statements taken from two posts. The truth is that their packs are better. The claims are the empirical data that I have offered (he is responding to data that I posted).

interesting debate.... Too bad no one from MA will step up with data (I hope that will change). I've read the threads at NK and Traxxas, and think you guys are being as fair as possible. I haven't read any claims from you guys that weren't backed by raw data.

Its not a good sign that Jason is being so defensive. Even if he can back up his claims, his attitude as a marketing manager is somewhat disappointing. Being passionate is one thing, but being defensive and getting into name calling is something I would not expect from the lead marketing manager of Maxamps. Its definitely not the right way to handle things. :no:

I would really like to point out how well BrianG is handling this. He is doing a great job of presenting ideas with no emotional base, and trying to further our hobby along with 3rd party data. It is unfortunate that my findings are moot, because I have the resource and ability to add some data to this.

I agree it is very disappointing to see such childish behavior from someone in his position. However this seems to be the way that he deals with anyone that dares to suggest that his product is in anyway less then perfect or that any other product performs better.

And the thing that kills me is that this whole thing came about not because someone was bashing his product. I was because one of his repeat customers was having problems with their product in one of his rc's and had posted the results of testing that he had done to determine the problem.

So how does this company treat their customer? They call him a liar, claiming that the info he has posted is not truthful in some way. Do they offer to replace his sub par performing packs that he has? No, instead they offer to send him a bigger pack to test with so he can prove that their product will outperform a competitors. And it should be pretty obvious what will happen if his tests should show that the pack he is sent still does not perform as well as it should.

I can only say that if it was me I'd be pretty unhappy at being treated that way. I don't know about the state kulangflow lives in but I'm pretty sure where I live Jasons comments could be seen as defamatory... in any case I'm glad I am not one of their customers.

.
I am sure you do, but trying to reason with Jason is like trying to push water up a wall.

You can say that again... I'm just mad, not because of debates, or him defending his products... I'm mad because he called me a Liar... Call me n *sshole or something, maybe even a B*tch.. but don't call me a Liar...:yes:

BrianG is without question one of the most objective level headed people your likely to come across in this or any public forum. If there is a way to present views or information contrary to those that Jason has he likely has the best chance.

That said though I find it impossible to have a conversation with persons that ignore any data that is presented to them, have absolutely no data of their own that contradicts mine, or that resorts to name calling.

The world is round... you will admit that the world is flat or you shall face the executioner!

You are a liar, you do not think maxamps are the best batteries money can buy!:party:

Seriously, I was reading through the NK forum posts, and some guy said that he belived that maxamps made the best batteries in the world, at any price. They have him fooled...

This may be of use to some PPL. www.ghostmyip.com

Wow, the post 16 justification of Kulangs peaks being near the continuous rating is just boggling. Since when is peaking near the continuous rating pushing the pack continuously? If I had to draw a conclusion on duty cycle it would be around 50%, which is 1/2 of being run continuously. :lol:

John, you should be banned from every forum. You're such a trouble-maker. How dare you speak the truth!

Oh MY GOD!!.. you said the "T" word... I'd be praying for forgiveness tonight...
:angel:

PS Just a thought guys I'm sure Monster Mike doesn't want to be drawn into anything regarding this forum and NK or anything personal regarding Austin or Jason.

My personal suggestion would be to delete most of this thread and continue a very real and interesting debate re the ratings of different packs and saftey implications of poor standards. That is very interesting... Perhaps a new thread in General electric or maybe a new sub forum on batteries and chargers?

Thanks...

B*tch! :mdr: Sorry, somebody had to do it. :na:

I just had a nice long chat with Austin on the phone. I think some good will come of this. Long story short, he was cool and listened to my suggestions. We spent a good portion of time talking about C ratings and how the industry has no uniformity. I suggested that he has enough market clout to change this, and that they should start posting up some discharge graphs.

You should've told him to start getting some quality lipos instead of the Tronicz crap.

He informed me that they were using two factories now, I have no doubt that he will search for better cells as time goes on.

This good news, glad that you spoke to him John.

We didn't agree about the 6000vs 8000 test being fair though. I explained that his pack is rated for a higher amp draw, therefor it should hold higher voltage under load. He responded that ratings from a factory don't mean anything since there are no standards. Ball in my court, I had no good response to that.

If ratings from a factory don't mean anything, then why bother advertising them?

It appears through testing that True R/C's ratings are accurate, so is he admitting that his are over-rated by the factory?

I'm glad you were able to talk to him, especially as a business owner yourself.

Did you ask him why rate a 2100mAh with a 20C rating and in fact it was 15C from the factory. If the ratings from the factory is 15C, I would go with 10C just to be on the safe side. I think that is what TrueRC does. They rather feel safe than sorry. Still, not a good way to conduct business. What did he say about Jason? I would fire him on the spot if I knew he was treating customers that way. Just my opinion. If I worked hard to establish and a business, I wouldn't want to have an employee bring it down in any way.

We did not go into further detail about specific packs beyond me reading some data log points that I have. I would rather not try and recount the whole conversation either. Let it suffice to say that it was positive, and that I have no bad feelings towards Jason, Austin, or MA.

Yah but what if that employee was like a crack dealer selling to little kids and making you rich?

Point is what is the moral charector MaxAmps is working with?

Maybe the whole MA team is on it, but that deosn't mean Jason can treat people the way he's doing. He's the one who has to be nice to everone, he's the one that we mostly talk (used to) talk to.

I feel I am sticking my neck out a lot further than I should on this matter, but the inquisitive little kid in me wants to learn more and push for standards that will allow any user to fairly compare packs. I am drawing up some proposed guidelines for battery ratings that may be useful. I will start a new thread for a discussion of this.

Sounds good John.

I should clarify, I'm not saying Jason sells crack (hehehe) or is on crack, or that MA has anything to even do with crack (hahaha). I'm saying that mabey the money is twisting the morals of truth. It's up to Austin to rein in Jason, IF his morals are more important to him than his money.

I thought Mike was a great example, he just sold out his entire allotment of MMM's in like two days. He sold them at a great price and offered them to his loyal customers first. He could have upped the price, waited for Castle's deal to finish, then raked in the dough. Instead he takes care of us here, makes a few dollars, and has all of us looking to him when it's time to spend our play money. A good business decision AND he get's to be the good guy at the same time.

Look at the posts Patrick DelC put up in the castle thread, he was honest, open, vulnerable (he did mention the exact fets they will be using on future ESC's), and most of all he showed genuine concern for the customer who is buying his product.

I am brand loyal to stuiff like this. Win me over, give me good products and service, and I will push your company to everyone I see preparing to spend money :)

Burn me, cheat me, lie to me, sell me crap, and I'll talk sh#t to every one I know wether they are going to spend money or not.

Call me a liar when we both know better and I'm liable to find you and kick the sh#t out of you in a violent, non-christian, UFC, no one will ever know it was me, kind of way.

Liars and theves get me a bit hot under the collar, sorry for the anger.

Don't apologize. You are 100% right. So I found a UFC buddy :party:.

I like my UFC :) So does my oldest daughter and both my boys. Course most of the time they are not fighting because they are angry (smack talking can rattle some fighters), but that's the beauty of kicking butt UFC style. Cold and intentional.

Is there a concensus on how to best test the lipo's without a $1500 machine?

A big outrunner and big prop can be a test bed. I spooled mine up today and it shook the deck, I forgot to balance the prop :lol:

Very old saying

" A satisfied customer will tell two people ,a dissatisfied customer will tell 200 "

You must keep you customers happy first and formost , the money will come later .
If your customers arn't happy ? Guess what, you have no customers !

I am sure there are alot of you on here that have been in R/C as long as I have "28 years " and longer . I have seen more then one business come and go. Treat people right and they will stand by you for many years to come .

Ok, thats all my wisdom for tonight :lol:

I have talked to Austin many times since he first got into the biz, and he has always come across as a good guy imo. It's no surprise that John has a positive report after a phone call. Jason has been more abrasive it seems and obviously has caused some trouble on the forums with his "style".

I tend to not count that against MA in general... though they do ultimately answer for the conduct of their reps in some way. MA is not the only company with this kind of issue. (SMC comes to mind...)

Here's the deal imo... it appears that TrueRC may rate their packs conservatively and MA may push the ratings more to the edge. The industry has ratings all over the place. It's not like MA is alone in having "optimistic" C ratings. It's the norm really. Not many choose to "de-rate" their product.

I agree there are other brands that perform better, so don't misunderstand. I got better #'s from my Core 5000 than from my MA pack. But on the track they both run great.

In any case... the whole C rating thing is out of control and should be taken "with a grain of salt". I know one company who doesn't put a rating on their packs at all, because they want to stay out of the whole mess.

I'm very confident that Austin is not trying to BS the R/C community and sell crap. He's not their to make a quick buck... he's their to build a good reputable business. I think the lynch mob effect has happened here at RCM. Go to rcgroups.com where MA has had a good presence for a long time and those plane guys are "lipo-nuts"... I don't recall you any of this type of reaction and bad talk.

Also... don't forget that I have posted graphs of MA packs that are pretty good. The ones posted recently where the voltage fell on it's face at like 30-40 amps just isn't right based on what I have seen. My results are completely different.

Oh, and I have killed two MA packs... both my fault. One I shorted out, and one (I forgot about last time this came up) I left plugged in and found it at about 0v (4s pack) a couple weeks later. Both packs ran ok for a while but eventually puffed, as expected.

I'm getting some fresh MA packs soon.

Just a different take.

Some folks will see the bad side of Jason in rcgroups. Go there and you will see some guys complaining already. This is what I like: http://www.cheapbatterypacks.com/mai...an=PRC&cat=PXQ. They did their homework and wow. I like how they post the Factory C rate and the Ideal C Rate. MA has been in this industry long enough and they should do the same. I would never say a 2100mAh pack made from 15C cells are 20C. If I had 15C rate from the factory, I would just say 10C so people wouldn't try and blame me for any abuse of the pack. Play safe now or feel sorry later. Example: My controller are rated from the place that's doing them for 15S lipos, but I'm going to go with 14S just to give a bigger margin.

Those 30/50C packs are rated 30/60 from the factory too. Even more derating. I am cool with that, because the pack will perform to the numbers that they show.

But do you see what cheapbatterypacks did? It is really cool that they show an ideal C rate mainly because they did the homework and I'm pretty sure they know from experiance that the packs will perform at the ideal C rate. My packs for example comes with a 25C from the factory. They provide that and the burst, but would I feel good saying they are 25C. I'm still beating the crap out of them and I have posted real world data on them.