Here we go again.

I have to agree with Moneybags^^^ if they were 150c capable and HAD GRAPHS or any proof BEFORE the Claim of 150c. Wouldnt they just post it and be done with it, while we sat back and drooled...?? I can post something on here in about 15 minutes...

????
 

One has to wonder what the priorities are for an advertising executive, marketing Director, and how the relationship is connected to being an R/C magazine editor??? All of that being said why are we the ones asking for this info? I am not trying to bash on anyone, but seems to me that this info should have been already advertised prior to the release of said products. This is quite confusing, and still I have serious doubts that their idea of 150c ratings will match up with what we expect as the consumer. I sure hope these graphs do not just show peaks up in that range which were voltage spikes due to sudden changes in current flow. I do agree that bantering Maxamps is quite pointless, but if this would have been handled correctly in the first place we would not be here scrambling for answers as to what this new product is truly capable of doing. Especially when the claim is 150c, which is well outside of anything possible up to this day in our hobby. In fact 3 times what anyone else has been capable of doing. So excuse us for having doubts and wanting answers. As the advertising marketing director I would have stopped everything on my plate to get this info out to the general public ASAP so as to get sales off and running immediately. Especially considering the state of our economy today.

So, give him a break? For what? Think about if this was your companies bread and butter? What would you do to answer these growing concerns in order to corner the market of LiPo batteries and help said company grow in these desperate times? The more I think about this, the more disapointed I am growing. In fact how long would you wait to get this info out to everyone? I wouldn't be able to wait one more hour before I had this information on the net and in my magazine.

So what should the industry standard be?? Do I need to start a dedicated thread?? There is NO reason this can't become a reality.

Stop bashing start fixing!!!

I figure for every ONE person (meaning us here on RCM) that knows it is BS, there is 100 people that are stupid and naive enough to believe posted ratings. They will not have any problem pushing this product, there is a sucker born every minute, and those suckers buy MA and read RCCA magazine.

Welcome to a world with zero accountability. Nothing requires them to actually sell the product they advertise. If that were the case they would have to advertise the proof right along with the product. As stated above the sad truth is most people are dumb enough to think because they buy what's in the mags it's the best because the ads or someone said it was. Same old maxamps won't back their product with proof until someone calls them out. These guys should work for the government, they would fit right in. Preying on the naive and will continue to untill they are stopped. They had no proof of these claims before they marketed this product. The fact that dude showed up as we started to question the product is suspect alone. Not to mention if they had proof where the hell is it? If you had it already why wait. Only logical explanation is they are fabricating it as we speak. My guess is we will never see an industry standard for testing. There are no regulations in the industry and no one for the companies to answer to. Why would they standardize it? Then people would start to realize all the cells come from a select few manufactures and just rebadged by the different companies.

There are only a few amplifier manufacturers but there are standards for wattage ratings. They came about by customers demanding it. If one reputable manufacturer adheres to a standard they will quickly become the market leader and other companies will follow.

Well let's hope the RC industry follows suit. Not saying it's impossible, but unlikely. I will say it would be nice to know exactly what our packs are capable of. Personally I wouldn't buy one brand over another due to a c rating, rather on how it works in my setups. I've ran neu Hyperion thunder power maxamps turnigy Orion and a few others. For the money I will keep running the turnigy packs simply because they are super affordable and work just as well as the rest for me when I race. It will be interesting to see if this small industry adopts regulations on batteries and ratings.

I would say that if a fully charged cell is 4.2 voltsthen a good rating method would be a sustained voltage of 3.5 under load for 3-5 seconds to get an accurate rating.

Well, there you go. That's a start. We put a 5 second load on a battery and crank the amperage until it dips below 3.5v. That's an easily replicated test. What should the voltage be? I can't imagine equipment to test these would be that complicated? Like a reverse automotive battery charger?

paralyzed, I started a thread about lipo standards a while back. The ratings systems that cheap battery packs uses is very similar, although they like to see 3.4v per cell average, 80% of rated capacity at continuous rated current, no overheating, and no puffing. Otherwise, there is no standard.

http://www.rc-monster.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11737

Standardized testing has been discusses numerous times but goes nowhere. Consistent and repeatable testing would have to be done by a reputable third party. Once such a company and procedure exists, coming up with an arbitrary standard will be all but impossible to satisfy everyone. A plane guy has different requirements than a heli guy or a car guy, and each group can be further divided by how the packs are used (racer vs basher vs top speed).

Personally, I would be happy with a simple graph showing voltage vs amperage vs temperature vs usable capacity. That's it. Let the consumer decide if the graph results are adequate for their needs/usage without having to come up with an arbitrary X volts/cell @ Y current @ Z temperature standard, which will likely change as the technology advances, and makes comparing apples to apples more difficult.

the "true C" term maxamps has coined is the equilivant of everyone else's "burst" ratings

so realistically we are looking for a pack that can do 70-80c continous with a 140-150c burst rating. Anything less and yes it is false advertising. OF course they can always say that 150 True C is what they deem it to be since they made it up to begin with.

honestly if this pack does 45c continous ill be surprised

One thing i know for certin is that the hyperion vx series has met or surpassed their 35c/65c ratings in every test ive seen, while other 50/100c and 45/90c packs have failed to meet their advertised ratings.

Yes, this is what we need. A method to compare packs in the real world. Most people could care less what the numbers are, just how it compares to other "known" packs.

Problem with this is that once this info was out, you would find a "diamond in the rough" and that supplier would get the lions share of the sales. And I believe it would be an out of country supplier, who spends very little on advertising and can sell stuff cheaper.

Maxamps, for all their flaws, has always had alot of advertising, promotion and presence at local and national electric events. They promote their products well, and get alot of business that way. Most of the bad taste here comes from the beginning, and the obviously inflated specs they had. I am not sure if they still do that, but this 150c claim does nothing to make me think the DON'T.

So my question becomes when we see the graphs of the 150C rating what do we compare them to? We really cant prove or disprove them because there is no standard.

I'm not sure if anyone has noticed by the new turnigy 5000 mah 20C packs are beefier than the 25C flighmax packs of about a year ago. This makes me think the new 20C packs are going to hold voltage better and last longer. Maybe they are getting closer to the 100A continuous rating they are promising?

Still makes it all that more confusing.

If they post a graph that is not true then they are outright lying. Saying your stuff is gangsta is not really lying, just making claims with no way to back them up.

I could say I am the best looking guy on this forum, and even though it is true there is no real way to back it up. MA have never really posted graphs on any of their products. I have seen a few and they were middle of the road specs, not as good as hyperion or enerland. That was a while back so I would be interested to see how the latest batch of MA products work.

I would love to see them live up to their claims, as they are an american company and we need more good american companies keeping the money in the country. Our current economy can only handle so many mine collapses and democrats...

We don't need a standard to interpret a graph. All it needs to show is V/t @ a constant discharge. Cell temperature should be mentioned, also.

We compare them however we want. If we want a battery that will maintain 3.6v/cell at 60A continuous and 3.4v/cell at 150A bursts, we just look through graphs to find the packs that meet or exceed those criteria.

Or, instead of poring through graphs, have the label say something like "will maintain X v/cell at Y A continuous with a Z*F temperature rise over ambient". Maybe include a similar line for burst (and state how long the burst is and how often it is repeated).

Either way, C rating alone is useless without other parameters. A company could claim 50C, but neglect to mention that is for 1 micro-second at 3.0v/cell with a cell temp of 200*F. Whereas another company could claim 20C but it's rated for continuous duty at 3.6v/cell with a cell temp of 100*F. You'd probably go for the 50C cell based on C rate alone, but after reading the rest, the 20C cell is obviously much better.

James, you kill me man! :rofl:

Though I have thrown in my 2 cents already on this, James makes a great point. It is getting more and more important to support companies that are American.

I ditched the accounting thing and went to work for a Freight company and have noticed things coming through that are Chinese all the way, things I never imagined would be made overseas at all, like truck and train parts....big parts too, not just silly stuff. (stuff they require to run) I know this is far away from RC Car stuff, but have seen things come through this week in particular and it has been on my mind......

Best lookin? Linc I think that worn out box of lady parts on your avitar is all the evidence we need! Really though if maxamps could pull it together and put up the evidence to back there stuff it would be awesome to see an american company take hold of the market and thrive. It will be hard to compete with the walmart priced overseas companies though as long as there are cheapskates like me in the mix. Not that I'm not willing to shell out extra dough for the good stuff but so far the cheap crap has worked just as well for me and it's only 100 C...

As for stuff being made in china, most American companies only care about the bottom line and will have it made in the north pole if that's were they can have it done the cheapest.

I agree, although don't you think that communicating the information is a large part of demystifying the cell/pack capabilities for the consumer?

Simple graphs or X/Y charts provide educated users raw information so they can make informed decisions but they may leave new users in a similar situation whereby savvy marketing can eclipse data

I'd love to see the data displayed in a 3 or 4 field adapted Venn diagram or maybe even a radar chart. I believe this is more approachable for new or casual users & goes a long way toward displaying the most appropriate use for the cell/pack...if the sweet spot matches your intended use - you should be good. In theory!!

Whatever method shows how the packs actually perform is fine with me. But personally, if you are in the market to get proper lipos, you should already be somewhat informed. And if not, that's where the forums come in. :smile:

I couldn't agree more here PBO!! This is the biggest problem. While its a brilliant marketing strategy, it's false hope for the best products in my eyes.

I think I gave the example in a prior post of even my LHS owner being misinformed of Maxamps C rating.

If there was a standard Graph or Venn diagram to post the packs performances, then manufacturers could advertise at extreme burst rates if they wanted. The proof of performance would be there in the diagrams.

Bottom line
 

The bottom line here is that if you sell good products on a constant basis then people will flock to your store and keep the cash flowling in. If you constantly sell crap, then you will get the share of the market you deserve.

James is the best looking person on RCM??? James I think you have been drinking too much tiquilla or sniffing too much of your paint fumes at the shop.

Well, he does have a purdy mouth...

My two cents worth
 

This is my first post on this, so take it with a grain of salt.
I have always tried to buy American when it comes to the RC hobby.
There are many times you can't, but I have given MA a try on lipos 5 times.
Two of the packs came with bad cells, two were not to minimum requirements and one that I bought a year ago still works like a champ. I don't want to hurt anyones feelings here but I feel like I wasted a ton of money on an American product that does not hold true to their labling. I have had great success with Turnigy brand so far at 1/3 of the cost of MA and better quality.
I won't go back to MA. You can't put an inferior product on the market at a premium price, sell it to a customer and expect them to come back and that's it. It would be one thing if they sold these batteries for what they were worth, but they are not. 4 out of 5 batteries that don't do what they claim, shame on me for buying the last 4.

perhaps MA is not a good example of buying quality american products.

How American is the product when it is only assembled in America? The cells are Chinese if I'm not mistaken.

Yes probably. But American motor cars are the same way to. The parts are manufactured else where but assembled here. Like i said before not many things are actualy MADE here in America. It's hard to produce things here if we don't even make the componets here. Very few companies make everything in house in America. Klien tools is and always has been made in America but who knows where they get the materials from? At this point I don't really care where it comes from or how it got here I want performance/price ratio that is reasonable. It's unfortunate to feel this way but we are all products of our enviroment. I'm a third gen union worker but the world is so shortsided right now there is no real benifit to holding on to the American product ideal as much as it hurts me to say that. The fact is we as a nation demand bently grade products at walmart prices. Something that isn't possible and as close as it comes are the outsorced products we get for cheap. Some are better than others as they are designed here but produced overseas to get the best quality/price for the situation we are in with the economy and beligerant consumers.

Mostly true.
 

What everyone is saying is mostly true, but we are talking directly about MAXAMPS and this is their chance to redeam their products and marketing stratigy. Not to mention saving face by stopping all of the BS with how they sell LiPo's and how they are treating their customers in general. Watching CC and how they opperate has been a refreshing experience from the consumer perspective and a lot of compaies could learn a few things from them. We all know that some of their tactics might not be the best for profits, but it keeps people comming back for more just because they make us all feel respected to some level. Brandon you guys might want to rethink your approach and learn a few things from the CC business model. Now how about leveling the playing field here and start providing some evidence that supports your claims with this new 150c LiPo?

Sorry for the tangent everyone. Let's just say that we can't stop some companies from their practices it is their decision. I will agree though products should be sold for what they are. Most in this hobby are smart enough to see between the lines but the ones that aren't could easily be turned away from a single bad experience. Let's try to stop that so the hobby industry keeps growing. The whole 150c deal has alot of people miffed but let's just deal with the hype with healthy skepticism until we see some actual proof. I don't believe it and wouldn't buy a pack but maybee if I saw a graph or something I would consider it momentarily.....

Yeah, that one just came to me... After I read about how the entire rescue operation involved Americans and american made equipment, and obviously was funded by america completely.

What are you talking about? You can't hurt that stuff, it just keeps coming back for more!!!

Nah, quit drinking, and wear a respirator. Have you checked in a mirror lately? Not to kick someone when they are down, but really?

And the top of your head is very attractive too Brian.


Now that i have successfully added nothing to this thread... I patiently wait for graphs...

http://www.rcbros.com/forum/forum_po...?TID=6922&PN=1


http://www.rcbros.com//uploads/image...E3Z_garage.jpg
http://www.rcbros.com//uploads/image..._wrap_area.jpg
http://www.rcbros.com//uploads/image...89_working.jpg

Now, take a look at TrueRC- they hand assemble packs, have a good warrenty system, and dont charge a 300% profit margin. Spot the difference between MA and TrueRC? Both American companies, both working from home, both assembling chinese cells as made to order packs, but only one of them price-gouges and takes advantage of inexperienced hobbyiests with grossly exaggerated claims of C ratings. :whip:

Enoughs enough... lets not cover the same old ground.

Its like ground hog day...

Okay then:

Wise man say, when releasing fantastic new lipos with massive C rating, you must first test the lipo to determine it has a fantastic C rating. If you produce a graph of your test result, is it not pertinent to post the graph up at the same time- why delay and risk the wrath of the non-believers?

Because they wanted the "press" release before they went to the show - Could they have included the graphs with the release yes but they didn't.

Move on - As I've said repeatedly lets give the new guy a couple of weeks grace before gathering pitch forks and fire wood.

Isn't 90% of the above a rehash of earlier threads?

NO, He should have proof ALREADY. Not in a few weeks...:whip:

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Well, you know, its fun to use the search feature sometimes- type 'maxamps graph' in and have a dig.

Once upon a time MA sold 4000mah cells that they themselves rated as '12C constant and 16C burst (conservatively)'. How things change.

I also like this thread: http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117095

And this: http://www.nitrokillers.com/showthread.php?t=1527

Quick mathes- 119.8amps / 4.2amps ( 4200mah ) = 28.5C. Take a look at the cell voltage and you'll see its down below 3.2v after only ~10% of the discharge cycle. Thats the ~27c cell rated for 35c that I love to remind Austin about so very frequently.

I'll shutup now, but I will say this as a final comment: better have some bloody good graphes to show us after iHobby is over...

I'll be waiting!

are they even at Ihobby????:gasp:http://www.ihobbyexpo.com/ExhibitorLists.html