(bold perthigh lighted)

When Henry Ford was Alive he was going to use Soy bean or some other kinda plant to make their plastics and other synthetic materials.But Petroleum was so cheap and available that they decided to use the petroleum version.
But what People don`t realize gasoline,Plastics,paints. and other things have components from Petroleum,so you have realize that the whole market for crude oil/petroleum is more than just fuel for vehicles.

Jerry, I have to take issue with your assertion that this is 'our' fault, on an individual level. The petroleum infrastructure was established long before any of us were born. The industry itself has been proven guilty of maintaining the structure (disallowing alternatives) and will go to extreme lengths to hold onto their profit power. Just yesterday in an MSN top story, BP has been buying top spot on Google search, so that people looking for info would be swayed/redirected to BP's own site!

Just like the global warming/climate change issue, where we continually hear the tired third degree that we (personally) caused that as well. Not to start a debate on either of those points, but I will not take one iota of blame, and I don't think the vast majority of us should either. Also your point about fossil fuel I disagree with wholeheartedly. This is an area where I have done seriously extensive research, and I subscribe to the abiotic oil theory. That is to say, petroleum is a perpetually self-renewing resource. And if you need proof you can look into the DeBeers diamond cartel to see how the supply is manipulated to keep the prices high, as was mentioned on one of the videos I posted.

I'd go out on a limb here and say that most of us on RCM, being electric freaks, would embrace new technology much more willingly than your average person. The fact we still don't have truly practical alternatives has kept even us in the 19th century in many ways, because the expense of many of the new technologies is prohibitive. And I don't think that's by coincidence either...

Arc, I agree that is about the only method that would seem feasible. But that 10,000 psi number is daunting. That is 5 TONS per square inch. The first video mentions that even if they could do that, the wellhead may be to weak to withstand it, if that's true then where does that leave us? People (including myself) are beginning to grasp the true scope of this only lately.

Perspective
 

Redshift Try to remove yourself from the present perspective and look at this situation lets say 200 years from now. What do you imagine the people of that time will say about this catastrophy from that end. Regardless of what any of us will say about who is running the show in oil right now the entire industry is driven by the demand of the people. The idea of invention is driven by the restrictions of our present technology. If we are forced to do without oil you can bet your bottom dollar that somone will come up with better ways for us to create the power we require to move forward. Looking at this whole picture from the outside the blame for the situation at hand belongs to anyone using oil right now, incuding myself. None of us will pay for the damage being done by using this oil. It will be our children, grandchildren and the many generations to follw who will have to pay for the mistakes that we are making right now. These mistakes are being made with a clear concience of knowing that oil is not the only answer to our power needs.

This world will end at some point due to the natural order of things. That end could be 100 years or 1million years, but if we continue to poison our own planet that end will come much sooner and at the hands of the human race as a whole.

Well presently I'm over a thousand miles north of it... and hopefully there will be a 200 years from now :)

"Looking at this whole picture from the outside the blame for the situation at hand belongs to anyone using oil right now, incuding myself. None of us will pay for the damage being done by using this oil. It will be our children, grandchildren and the many generations to follw who will have to pay for the mistakes that we are making right now."

Following that line of logic, we are paying for the mistakes of our grandparents. Would you not agree with that?

If you feel the need to take personal responsibility for your energy 'misdeeds' then you are free to do so. It was not my decision to drill into the seafloor, pretty sure it wasn't yours either, and I was not offered the chance to vote on it. That's the point I'm trying to illustrate. Even more to the point, to use your example, for every new well they drill there is one less opportunity to do things differently. That is the way I see it.

BTW did you know there has not been a new refining facility built in over 25 years? Seems to me (and a whole sheetload of other people) that the amount of traffic increase in that time would sure justify building a few more?

You know..... if they really wanted to keep prices reasonable. AHEM.

Qualification
 

Look I am not saying that any of us would or should be standing in the same shoes as BP in this matter to receive blame or penalty. I believe that BP will suffer not only a herendous loss financially for this matter, but also a huge loss in business for whats going on here. BUT we all share some leve of responsibility for what is happening to our world as a result of using fossil fuels.

Yes I believe we all suffer in some ways for the mistakes and the successes that our fore fathers have made in the past. All one has to do is open their eyes a little wider and look throughout history at the wins and losses that our country has suffered through in the way of patriotism, invention, and/or in fighting over a piece of real estate.

BP was only doing what the people wanted them to do, and that is providing oil for our use. Of course they did everything that they thought possible to prevent any mishaps such as this one, but there are always unknowns and accidents in every situation that we have not come across previously. BP thought they had all of the angles covered, but one simple mistake will end up costing them several billion dollars in clean up, restitution, captiol losses, and business losses, and the rest of us will have to suffer many many years of devastation to our ecological system as a whole. One can always turn their head and state that it is not my fault in any way, but if you bought $1 of fuel from them, then you to share some level of responsibility. This is why these companies put us in this situation in the first place. You could mirror this to the drug Cartels. They would not have the success they live if there was not a demand for the product. So you don't think the dealer or the junky share in that responsibility?

Some good points Jerry. I understand your parallels between a drug cartel and big oil. But drugs are not a requirement for daily life. Oil is however. So that's sort of an apples and oranges comparison. Let's agree to disagree on this one?

I'm fine with letting people form their own opinons concerning the finer points, my concern here is the ecological fallout. We're hearing lots about a media blackout, more Obama grandstanding "looking for an ass to kick"- sounds so presidential no?

Let's not forget he was on vacation for 2 WEEKS in the middle of this. Could we imagine Eisenhower or FDR having taken a vacation during their biggest crises? Alright I'm off track again...

The oil continues to flow, the booming is being done incorrectly, they are not even allowing waterfront/ coastline landowners to make their own oil control devices, and at EVERY front this is literally being allowed to worsen. This is just what I've seen and read, I'd really like to hear more from you guys down there. Nitrostarter, linc (anyone spoken with him?), JeffNutz and anyone close to the region. Please correct me if I am spewing BS, and confirm whatever points you can!

Wrong
 

You have a right to protect your own land with any means at your disposal as long as you do not violate local laws in doing so. Yes up to now there have been many mistakes made such as using this oil dispersant. I was in the US Navy for many years and had to deal with small oil spills in just this way by order of the powers to be. I think I have already stated that all this stuff does is weigh the oil down and make it sink just below the surface for a while, but eventually the oil will overcome and float back to the surface. I believe that these sub-surface or underwater Plooms they keep talking about are the result of using that disperesant. It is merely a temporary means of disguising the true depth of the problem.

Alright I should have been much clearer here "But drugs are not a requirement for daily life"- should have said drugs are not a requirement for being a 'productive member of society' (or tax slave- but that's another thread) OIL IS.

My point with Obama is merely the massive contradiction in his words vs. his action.

The rest, I still disagree with. A little late here, I'll pick up tomorrow.

Once again
 

I understand your point of view, but your still only looking at this from the consumer aspect. Try putting yourself in God's shoes looking at this from outside of our world. If you view this planet from afar you can see the flow of oil as it goes from the wells to the refineries, to the gas pumps, to our vehicles. No one is forcing anyone to buy fuel. We just do, because we have come to enjoy a life with FASTER transpertaion. We are spoiled by the very world we have created. So yes we are paying for our ancesters mistakes.

From the view above one would have to think "What in the hell are these creatures doing to themselves and their planet"? How stupid do you have to be and not know that you are killing the very atmosphere that sustains the life of your own spiecies.

Some are saying BP will file for bankruptcy. Lets see if any Gov. money will go to them.

Doubt it.
 

I seriously doubt that will come to pass. BP recorded profits last year of something like $61 billion. Lets just say worst case scenerio that this disaster ends up costing BP $5 billion. Sure that is a huge amount of money to most, but that will equal out to less than 5% of last years profits. Hardly puts them into bankruptcy I would think. According to the AP they also have an insurance policy on every rig which pays out $500 million towards any damages or losses in the event of an accident such as this one. So far according to the AP BP has spent nearly $1 billion trying to recitfy the matter. I would think that the tough part in all of this is getting things cleaned up to our satisfaction, which will take a few years of their time and money, and that is once they get the leak stopped however long that takes. BP now says that they will have the leak stopped 100% next week.

Cafffine / Tabacco / Viagra (linc) ? Pretty serious drugs that quite a few productive members of society would get upset about loosing...

I'm closed minded? HARDLY.

I still disagree with your perspective, and don't care to continue this little debate. Keep believing in antiquated theories about fossil fuel if you wish. Not trying to be stubborn here, I have seen way more than enough evidence to put that one to rest for eternity. And if you think you can make it thru ONE DAY without petroleum, or any of it's by products, please do document it.

I think $5B is a very low estimate. Wyeth, the makers of the drugs known as Phen-Fen (the diet drug craze of the 90's) ultimately lost $20B from lawsuits and penalties when a handful of deaths occured from taking the drugs. Phen-Fen was actually a combination of two drugs Wyeth had sold for decades, and wasn't even a recommened use by the company. Doctors themselves were proscribing the drugs for off-label use after one Dr did one small study, claimed it worked, and people and the media ran with it and hyped it. Wyeth got in trouble not for recc the drugs, but for not doing much to stop Drs misproscribing the drugs.

BP, otoh, is responsible for 11 deaths of workers, thousands of animals, including many endangered species, the destruction of a key habitat for wildlife, food production and economic activity. BP has an abysmal safety record and has shown a pattern of lying and deceit to the public and the gov't about the extent of the spill. Part of the eventual fines will be based on the amt of oil spilled, and they've consistantly underreported the extent of the spill and actively undermined outside estimates of higher amts and flowrates. I think their release of only poor quality video from the wellhead heavy and use of dispersants was an effort to mask the size of the spill, and keep it off beaches where it would be more easily seen by the public and elicit outrage, rather than based on sound scientific reasoning given the extend of the oil release.

They have been slow to pay claims, and often underapaid completed claims.
As bad as anything, has been BP's behavior in response to the spill, for which the company deserves to be severly punished financially and if not criminally. BP will be litigating this for decades.

BP has one of the worst safety records in the industry, yet pays one of the highest dividend yields. Are the two related? Possibly. I think the shareholders need to suffer quite a loss for their tolerance of the company being run in such a fashion. If we have decided in the US that we are going to have a low-regulation laize-faire capitalist economy, we have to let market forces act swiftly and brutally towards the company and not once again treat a company as too big to fail and let the populace bear the burden of the company's mismanagement and hubris. Market forces can't prevent such an action, but can hopefully realign industry behavior to stop the next one.

Obama did get BP to pledge that they would pay for every dime of the cleanup and damages (brillant.) We have to hold them to it, even if it requires them suspend their juicy dividend and even sell off chunks of the company until the residents and environment of the Gulf Coast is made whole. If this results in deepwater offshore drilling to risky for the freemarket to bear, then so be it. We shouldn't be subsidizing stupidity and destruction just because gas prices get high and we'd rather "drill baby, drill" rather than come up with more creative and sustainable solutions to our energy needs.

Just because oil is instrinsic to the modern economy, that does not give license to BP to extract it in completely unsafe and negligent ways.

Just an FYI 40% of BP is owned by US companies (pension funds) much of the rest is owned by UK pension funds... So its you and others like you's pension that will bare most of any shareholder loss...