Well guys, we all know what I think about maxamps products...

I sat for a while tonight and though about alot of things and decided to make my first thread over at NK a positive one. I did not go into the problems I had with the packs, and the somewhat vauge customer service that I experienced. I chalk up half of my pack failures to my learning curve, and the other half to factory quality control issues. Keeping my "experiences" in mind, I decided to try to solve this issue by attempting to push education and realization, sort of looking at the big picture.

I still firmly believe that there are other lipos out there that can outperform maxmaps proucts at the same price. That is all I care about when I buy a lipo. My opinion there has not changed.

However it is important that Maxamps continues to make a postive improvement on thier products, as so many people rely on them! They are a big company that has a large segment of the land rc lipo market. They have a responsibility to improve electric rc!

Here is a link to the thread, I am registered there as JamesRobertdownie :http://www.nitrokillers.com/showthre...=7109#post7109

:gasp:

They already kicked/Banned someone we know and Labeled him as a "Trouble maker".

This is strange, because in our motor winding discussions, I found this person to be one of the most intelligent and helpful people that I encountered on the subject.

Thanks for the Link, Linc. I will be following along with this to see how it "evolves".

I already see back peddling, arguing with ratings off misread material, and getting out the dictionary to see exactly what the definition of "Continous" really is. :rofl:

I would LOVE to see an unbiased 3rd party conduct discharge testing of various Brands.

I believe everyone would be very surprised. Quality isn't always indicated by Retail Price or Marketing Hype. :yes:

That's funny, Linc. I just responded to your post over there not realizing it was you.

I really did like your post. I hope that it catches some attention.

Yep, I thought long and hard about how to appeal to everyone involved. I could just say that maxamps ratings are incorrect, and they need to change that before everyone catches on and decides to take their business else where. But I went for a more diplomatic approach. It appears that Jason takes critisism very seriously, and I did not want to appear to just jump on the bashing bandwagon. It is nice to hear that he admits to not having much if any experience with larger scale conversions. That is interesting, and makes quite a bit of his argument unfounded to me. I hope that maxamps starts to give some sort of suggestions for use with their pack descriptions. At least it would give them some sort of backup when they encounter issues.

Another US vendor to get packs that are less money but still good and have good service Elite 4800mah http://www.cheapbatterypacks.com/?si...owlipos&sale=Y

Fun Fun,

This is yet another thread with Jason attacking someone for no reason at all really. It was bad enough that the site owner told Jason to back off.

http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117095

So, I'm in need of my first Lipos for an MM5700. I plan to run it in the new Traxxas Slash.
What do I do for a charger an batts? I was going to get one of the combos from Max amps but I don't want a fire my first time out. I'll subscribe to this thread, hopefully you'll have some insight for me.

Hey Rob, do you want to run 2s or 3s lipo? I would say for 2s lipo a trakpower pack would be good, and for 3s lipo a neuenergy 5000 3s pack would be good. I have both and have had excellent service from both. Neuenergy also make a hard case 2s version of the 5000 pack but they can be hard to find. All of these batteries are available in the rcm store, as well as quite a few chargers.

I think Jason just doesn't like me.

When I met him at the Midwest Nats I recommended that he use a bigger battery for longevity and amperage overhead. He told me the pack was working fine and that he would continue running it. So, I got one of the guys (call him X) running his pack at the meet to let me strap on my data logger. A 20C cont. rated pack hit 3.1v/cell upon 1/10th sec burst at 17.5C- maybe the pack wasn't warm enough. The sad part was that X's pack was 2.5 times the capacity of Jasons, so I can only imagine how bad his pack was getting beaten during the run. I tried presenting the data logs to him on the MA forum, that didn't go over so well.

Funny, Jason really has it in for you John! Badger really put the smack down on Jason. I would not be suprised if Jason is removed from most of the forums he is on. I like his limitless knowledge on everything. I wonder how many different brushless/lipo setups he has done? That would be handy info to know when he starts running his mouth.

I'm still learning so be easy on me. I believe 3s Hard case would be nice. A GOOD charge also please. I only want to buy it once. :whistle:

Link me up if you would. :mdr:

My last few items on ebay are finishing up in the next few days so I'm just about ready.

Here is a good 3s pack: http://www.rc-monster.com/proddetail...eu3s5000car25c

And a good charger: http://www.rc-monster.com/proddetail...charger&cat=19

And this is a good balancer: http://www.rc-monster.com/proddetail...package&cat=19

Hi Guys,

Austin here with MaxAmps. This is going to be long but hopefully worth the read.

I just read through this entire thread. I hope I can share some insight with you that may change your mind about a few things or at least add some content to your discussion.

1. First off, we never rated a 15C cell as a 20C cell. The pack in the picture is a Tronics pack from at least 3-4 years ago. It was rated at 15C when we sold it.

2. In addition, we do not sell Tronics cells and have not for at least 3 years.

3. From talking with John, the MaxAmps packs that he has tested were not only very old packs that we no longer offer, but also smaller cells under 3000mah.

4. The rating systems for "C" rate varies from factory to factory. As a general rule, they are absolute "maximums" based on testing loose cells without wire, plugs, shrink wrap, and at ideal starting temperatures. The factories that we work with provide us with the C rates. We test the cells at those rates and post those rates on the site. With some cells we under-rate and with some we keep the same, however we never "over-rate" the cells.

5. I spoke with John yesterday. John is a great guy, however in Jason's defense, he is also our direct competition as he sells battery packs on his site. I don't think that was John's motive for all of these posts. However, I can understand where Jason would think that John's opinion would be biased.

6. As you grow as a company, more and more people attack you. There are more MaxAmps packs out there than the other packs you are referring to. Therefore based on percentages, there are going to be more "defective" packs. As a consumer, the grass is always greener.

7. There are tons of our competitors posting as "customers" and trying to bash our packs for their benefit. It happens in every industry. Both Jason and I have dealt with several of these folks and may be too quick to lash out and get defensive. I have talked with him about this and we are on the same page.

8. We are constantly improving our packs. New versions of cells come out all the time. A 1 year old pack of any of our cells is an "old" version of the cell. That is why I am sending out a new 8000 pack for testing against the "infamous" 6000 MaxAmps vs 8000 True RC thread that has been posted on every forum that I know of.

9. We pride ourselves on customer service, quality products, and value. There is no such thing as a "quick buck" in this industry. If you sell an over rated product then you will get so many returns, negative posts, and unhappy customers that you could not survive. There are 100,000 happy MaxAmps fans out there using our packs. There are 3-4 people in this thread bashing us back and forth that may not even be customers. The one I have talked to does not have any MaxAmps packs over 3000mah and showed a picture of a 3-4 year old pack, then acts like we rated it differently than what was on the cell. The other one is using out dated 6000 and old version packs to compare to a brand new 8000 pack.

10. Here is a fact: MaxAmps earned both the RC Car Action Readers Choice Award for Best Battery and I just got off the phone with RC Driver whom we also won the "Best Battery" award. Can all these thousands of readers just be getting duped into thinking MaxAmps is the best? Not likely.

11. We do our best to offer full time online support(Jason). Its not an easy job. I can assure you that Jason's heart is in the right place. I do not know of another battery manufacturer that offers this type of support. He is constantly having to determine peoples motives behind what they are posting and lots of time finds out that they are either a competitor or sponsored by a competitor.

12. I agree that the "C" rating system is not a good system. There is no standard and "C" rating is really meaningless. We are working on a system to better rate our packs, however without everyone using that same rating system there would be no way to compare one pack to the next. I think that it needs to have weight of pack, capacity of pack, voltage under load, and max temp and a certain amp draw. This is similar to the NiMH sticker "matching". That is the only way to get an apples to apples comparison.

13. We try and match up packs for specific vehicles and setups. That is 95% of the market. Our 3S 5000 is perfect for the VXL, our 2S 8000s are perfect for the Emaxx, our 3S 1550 is perfect for RC18T. The majority of customers do not have the ability to even figure out what a "C" rating means.

14. I guess I will finish up with this. We are the only company that offers a 3 year 300 cycle warranty. That is putting your money where your mouth is. No other manufacturer offers anything even close. We are always available via the online support and the phone to talk you through your setups. We also offer any configuration, plug, tap, wire, and sized pack that you want. Its guaranteed fresh within 3 weeks since we build the packs here in the USA.

What other company can you call and talk to the actual person that built your pack?

In the end I appreciate all of your feedback. It keeps us going and never settling. We are constantly improving our products, service, and systems. To stay on the cutting edge of this industry, we have to.

Best Regards,

Austin
CEO MaxAmps.com

Austin, glad to have you here to explain (defend?) yourself, and appreciate the post.

I totally agree about the need for a more standard C rating. As a matter of fact, there is a thread about this very topic here. I think that any procedure MaxAmps comes up with will be questioned. TBH, any testing must be with an impartial third party against other competing cells. That way, no one can complain the results of the test were biased...

Austin, I appreciate you coming in here also. I didn't intend for this thing to blow up like it has.

I appreciate the new 8k pack, and I look forward to testing it (as best I can) when it gets here.

As far as my "bashing" goes, well it is my opinion.

On the subject of magazine polls, I would like some info about the people who polled. Have they owned and used packs from maxamps and all of the other lipo mfgs? Most likely not, as people do not like to spend thousands of dollars on batteries. And most people who participate in online polls have nothing better to do.

I have bought a lot of batteries, and do not have many maxamps packs left. I have tested all of them and settled on the packs that I found to perform the best. I am not emplyed by any battery mfg, and have not got any freebies either.

Austin, good luck with your business, I am also a business owner and understand your issues. I am sure you will continue rasing the bar, you have to in order to be competitive. Just be careful how your employees make you look!

Austin, how about a discharge graph? I mean if it's all on the level, and your packs are so improved since last year, wanna throw us a bone?

I'm not a hater or sponsored. Just a guy who will be replacing a lipo pack that is less than a year old, been replaced twice already, and after the last time it quit working, I took it apart myself and have the dead cell is sitting on the counter. My 3S is now a 2S and I'd like to only spend the cash on a reliable replacement. I won't name the manufacturer, but I will say that it was most certainly still under warranty when I decided I would rather fix what was left of it than wait for the fourth potentialy flawed pack.

I have seen other manufacturers and sights with discharge graphs, why not post it? I mean you guys must test the cells once in a while right? mabey each time to get a newer better cell?

What cell do you want to see specifically? This is a new version of the 4000 cell vs the old version. The factory rates it at 4200mah. We rate it at 4000. This is the same cell that we use in our 8000 packs. At 20C, you can see that it holds what I would consider great voltage. I don't know how you could not call it a 20C constant cell based on the data...

-Austin

And here is the 3000 cells that we use for the 6000mah packs.

-Austin

I have a hard time releasing these because it gives our competitors an idea of exactly what they need to compete. As I have said many times, our pack quality and performance is second to none. The proofs in the graphs. I have not seen a 3000 cell or a 4000 cell on the market that will compete. If there was one, we would offer it.

-Austin

Fair enough :yes:

Guess I need to get an eagletree data logger and figure out how many amps my 3.5lb 4wd 1/10 buggy is pulling :no:... I have had 2 3S 5000mah packs give out on this car running a MM and a 5700kv motor.

The most recent failure (and I believe the same failure that happened to the last pack but I didn't open that one up) was one of the cell's tab burning off. I'll post up a pic here in a bit.:neutral:

The first batt I got wouldn't balance. Guess I must have just been in the small percentage of factory defects 3 times in a row...

Edit, forgot to say thanks for posing up the graphs. It feels funny that so many people have askes sop many times with no responce, I ask once and here they are hahaha. Suppose I should have asked sooner :)

I had the same thing happen with a few cells. I often doubt that the thin tabs can hadle the current, especially when it gets over 100amps.

Thank You Austin, TBH..
You are absolutely correct!! As a company grows, more people will lash at you. But after your explanation of the tronics cells, I understand. And I'm aware that LiPo cell technology are always improving. It doesn't take much to calm down a situation. I personally think Jason should just quit calling people a Liar. I have never thought about never buying MaxAmps packs again, until Jason replied to my post in the manner which he did. Maybe it's a good thing that he has a lot of pride in the MaxAmps product, but you can't just push this thought or opinion to everyone who has a difference of opinion. Thank you for the explanation, and especially the graphs...

Is it possible i've hit 250amps with this rig?

Specifically a Team academy SBV2-Pro 1/10 4wd buggy, MM/5700Kv, 5000mah 3S, 15/86 gears (around 78mph on BrianG's speed calc)

I would think the tabs would have to conduct the burst rating of the pack. I mean the sustained rating is 150amps, and the continuous is 100...

So far this is the best arguement for high voltage I have seen. No matter how good the cell is, if the tabs can't handle the load, better run more volts and less amps.

Awesome! Graphs! It might be my monitor, but could you blow them up a bit so I can read the numbers? Any temperature data and 1c, 10c, 15C graphs for comparison would be nice too. Especially temperature that is needed to duplicate these rates.


It is really nice to see some data finally, bravo Austin.

Sike and I came to the conclusion that there is no way that the thin little tabs could hadle the spec discharge numbers, just not going to happen. High voltage is a much better way to go. My 8s savages with the 14xl feigao runs 3600 12c poly rc packs (around 45 amps cont) and has no issues. Motor gets to around 140 and stays there for a 30min run. The 60 amp esc barley gets warm, maybe 110, and the batteries are around 105 when the run is done. It is a heavy truck, and has plenty of power, more than my 7xl 4s revo.

Looking at the graphs a bit harder here, it seems that the average voltage is around 3.6v/cell. Wouldn't this indicate that running them at 20C is not the max continuous rating, and that they could be pushed quite a bit harder? But at the bottom of the 3.2a/h cell graph it shows 12a/h on the discharge?


edit: my eyes hurt, I will wait for you to enlarge them before I try to read any more :lol:

I'm with you there JRH, I put it on photoshop 11 and blew it up, cleared it up as best I could, and still can't make out the numbers well enough.

Linc, It's just hard to fit HV into this little buggy. I need to get a better understanding of how to calculate the wattage different KV motors pull at different voltages. I do have a 2300KV ammo motor that I turned the shaft down to 3.2mm and use in this buggy to make it more raceable on the micro track at the nearest hobby shop. I guess I could get a 5S pack to get the performance back, but can I find one that will give me similar performance to the 5700/3S/5000mah and not weigh a ton?

Sorry for the small graphs...

There are larger versions here

http://www.nitrokillers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=117

John-I am not seeing the 12ah that you are referring to.

The tabs that we use are copper, not nickel. Copper is 10X more conductive and our copper tabs are very thick. Twice as thick as most the manufacturers I have seen. They can handle those very high amp draws in bursts. I think I have an eagle tree showing bursts in the 250 amp range. I will see what I can dig up. Very few setups are running in this range.

At 20C average, a pack will last 3 minutes. Most guys will set up for a longer run time than that unless they are drag racing or doing speed runs on boats.

With the expanded CBA we were able to do burst at 120 amps. I will try and dig them out or get them tested again.

I do agree that high voltage is a sweet way to go if it will fit.

-Austin

Can't see them, I have been IP banned from your site unfortunately.

Did you collect any temp data?

Oh yes. There is that little issue:)

The temps were all between 85-90 degrees at the end of the discharge. Keep in mind that this is without shrink wrap on the cells so the temps would be higher in a pack format but no where near the 140 degree max.

I will try and get the high def versions of these posted here also so you don't have to squint.

I will also see about taking care of your banned IP issue:)

@ austin;

Jason swapped the graphs; he swapped the 4200 with the 3200.

are these graphs provided by the producer are are these own measurements?

And can you share what equipment was used for testing?

There is a 12Ah there.. the scale down the bottom on both graphs goes to 10x the battery capacity. Instead of 4.2Ah its 42Ah... it even says it on the side that it was measured at 32Ah, or 40Ah... is that a 10p pack or something?

my guess it's just a scale error, i think a bug in the software or such;

The capacity and voltage are setup correctly; I assume the software automatically scales with the variables you can put down in these fields.

Maybe its a 1s10p pack and thats why the voltage is so good under load :)

I kid I kid... :lol:

That's bellow the belt mate! Austin is doing his best to help here!

Bahaha I'm just a stirrer, I tried to make the sarcasm obvious with the second line :P To Austin or any one else: just kidding, please don't take me seriously :P I was just poking fun at the haters :)

The equipment is a CBA with the upgraded add on. The tabs were bolted directly to it.

-Austin