What castle standpoint? I can't even get a reply to an email from Castle support!

Dude,

What's your question? I've gone back through your posts, and I don't really see a question anywhere...

Patrick

Are zippy lipos good enough for a MMM... Kinda open-ended, huh?!

Basically will a lipo rated for 100amps at 6s be ok in the flux, geared with the 25t pinion?

My experience says no... Maybe for a run or two, but not with good results...

I already said in another post that as a rule, Castle Creations does not comment on the performance, usability, fitness of purpose, etc. for other brands.

Besides, I don't have any "Zippy" batteries to test with. I haven't tested "Zippy" batteries. So I don't have any idea whether "Zippy" batteries are fit for the purpose of setups on the MMM. I would also imagine it would matter (A LOT!) what kind of setup you ran (pinion, overall gear ratio, etc.) that you ran (as it is with ALL batteries...)

My suggestion -- run the smallest pinion that gives you the performance you are looking for. And don't try to push anything too hard. At the power levels the MMM runs at, bad things will happen very quickly... :diablo:

Patrick

Good advice...

Zippys are compareable to maxamps (performace, not price).

I would think that moving a 12+ lb truck at 60+ mph will require a larger mah 30c 6s lipo. I find my 4500mah fp 6s 30c lipo is being pushed hard in the lst (heavier than the flux), and it is geared for 45mph... Some of the new 40c thunderpower lipos look to be the best bet... I have a jet buddy (BVM) who has some of them and says that they are leaps and bounds better than the 30c fp lipos...

Besides,

There's like multiple cell types that you can order with "Zippy" batteries (Korean, Chinese-1, Chinese-2) many different sizes, different discharge rates, etc.etc.etc.... So it would be impossible for me to make any kind of blanket statements.

I guess I'm not sure why people always try to save money in batteries -- they are the most important part of the system. Poor batteries mean poor performance, and good batteries mean good performance. So buy the best batteries you can afford, and skimp on the "bling" parts. :whistle:

More good advice...just remember that alot of people in this hobby are on a budget... Don't laugh too hard!! I always tell people to take up a cheaper hobby, like quilting, if they cannot afford the good stuff.

It is really all your fault Patrick, you are selling this great equipment way too cheap...:lol:

It's just a matter of having champagne taste on a beer budget. Way back in the day, I used to work in car audio. People would spends thousands on the amps, speakers, and head unit only to skimp on wiring. That would be like having a 500HP engine in your car with a cardboard toilet paper tube driveshaft. :smile:

I would say that with most things electrical the performance will be governed by your power source. For car audio this would be a combination of the alternator, batteries and wiring. For rc cars the battery for the most part as most packs are equipped with leads that can handle the currents expected of the battery, some even bigger than needed I would say.

I have learned the hard way with batteries, the 3s maxamps packs that i bought couldnt even hold up to a slash/vxl combo. though i did manage to find a setup that had low enough amp draw for them, one is currently taped to my DX2.0...LOL, 4 runs on it and voltage hasnt gone down a bit.

Damn, why is it whenever we talk about poor battery purchases maxamps always comes up... Someone should give them a break, it is not like they are making much money:whistle:

At this point i would say that buying those batteries have been my # 1 regret since getting back into RC, that and the MMM i just fried the other day because of sheer stupidity!!!

Right there with you dude. I bought alot of maxamps stuff before I finally realized that flashy ads do not mean good products... I have had much better success buying used enerland packs from the plane guys. That is sad...

I have cooked a few escs, all in good fun!!!

[QUOTE=lincpimp;266433]Good advice...

Zippys are compareable to maxamps (performace, not price).

with all due respect i dont think that is an accurate statement. myself and many of my racing buddies have had maxamps packs and now zippy 4s 5000 h and r packs in our 1/8 scale racing buggys.
i can tell you that the zippy packs are much better at holding voltage under load and producing power. the guys i am speaking of have raced 1/8 buggys going on 3+ years in southeast michigan so we have a lot of time on them.
also many of these guys have the higher end enerland based packs as well and they say that those packs may stay in balance a little better if ran down close to dumping. but for twice as much money i guess they should.

I can understand your statement, but that is purely speculative basd on your experience. I also run zippy-h's and zippy-r's and think they are great and "believe"(as in religion) that they hold their voltage. There are zippy-h, zippy-r, zippy-ec,flightmax etc... so many flavours. You should also test the batts in lab to verify all this.
Thing is, I have verified that Patrick is telling the TRUTH. when you brake you use the battery to dump 500+ watts of power in 1-2 seconds. If the batts(or something else) cannot sink this power then the ESC will blow up in nice little smoky plastic pieces.

Actually, what i'm trying to get to is if a batt is bad then it should not trash your ESC, but that is fact because the mmm uses the batts to dump load(which is very common practice) from the esc acting like a generator when braking. I believe there should be a extra protection circuit to give the bad batts a helping hand and then bad batts just give bad performance, not smoked plastic.

Patrick is trying to offer part of the solution via a ripple monitoring solution firmware upgrade, so PLEASE dont think he is not willing to help.

mr min i am not just posting my experience but that of about 10+ people who actually race 1/8 buggys. i still find it funny that the wimpy mamba max can handle pretty powerful motors on 4s with no problem but the original monsters didn't.
yes i know the monster will allow more current through but that still dosent cut it in my book. all i am saying is the zippy h and r 5000 packs are definitly good enough for racing a 1/8 scale buggy. the question is were the first gen monsters. i think from all the problems they had the answer is pretty obvious.
i myself run a mamba max with an extra 25v novak cap on 4s. when i was choosing a new esc 4 months back i was afraid to get a monster and opted for the tried and true mamba and i dont regret it a bit.

I agree. I also think zippy-r's are very impressive. The mmm is more powerful than the mm, but had some teething problems(which seem to be gone now) and now is pretty reliable. The mmm does not fail more than other (much more expensive) esc's. Chinese alternatives are coming out such as the 150A etc... i think the mmm should really have some more protection circuitry to prevent this, but IT really was expecting a much more luxurious environment.

I think the components are running nearing their limit on 6s, only when you brake, when and it blasts energy into your batts too fast(faster than it can absorb) then it will kill the capacitors(ripple current) and ESC FET circuitry up in smoke it will go. Fact is that the mmm requires good (expensive) low resistance good chemistry batteries because that is what it is expecting in order to operate.

I think castle is only saying that he would prefer it if you didn't use cheapo (not necessarily zippy) batteries because they do not want to replace ESCs exploding due to this. I'm personally working on a protection circuit to protect my mmm's just in case.

Less is more. more or less.

[QUOTE=kvrc;266512]Maybe not the best comparison I have made... I definately think zippy lipos are better than maxamps stuff... The chinese cells are getting much better. As far as cell design goes, the enerland cells are still better. The tabs bigger, twice the surface area, and at least 3 times as thick. Quality control is much better too. Zippy pack construction is iffy at times... The zippy r packs appear to be enerland cells, but I do not see them for sale anymore...

just when i thought zippies were good (well i knew the R-s were ok lol)
i was gonna go for a couple of flightmax cells.
it's not fair that the best lipo's are the most expensive :(

Nothing wrong with zippies, especially considering the price... If i was not good at buying lightly used enerland packs I would definately buy zippies. My only issue is that all of my setups demand the best lipos.

Guys,

We're in a tough spot here. We have to live in the sandbox that everybody plays in. We can't call out products as being good or bad. In most cases, a battery will work as well as any other. You guys are not talking about most cases in these applications. These are the highest power setups in RC brushless at the moment, and then you guys are pushing them to the bleeding edge with your gearing.

Let's compare this to full size racing. Few expect to put lowest-bidder parts in their race cars. There's a reason racing is so expensive, high end performance requires that every component in the system be of equally matched capabilities.

I think all modelers learn the lesson that when you buy cheap you generally wind up buying twice. Unfortunately that lesson is often an expensive one. We are modelers too, we work very hard to bring top notch components to the market at a great price for value received.

All that we can say is that not all batteries are equal. Price is sometimes, but not always, an indicator of a battery pack's ability. There's generally plenty of guys on line who have experience -- both good and bad with cells. Unfortunately, we can't be the ones to comment on that.

The Monster setup will take all the power that you can give it. We suggest using the biggest, baddest batteries you can possibly put in the thing. If you aren't sure of the abilities of your packs, start small and work up. Start with 4S and a small pinion. Racers don't start out in Top Fuel or Formula One either!

Hope this makes sense.

Now for the guy who wants to put 1,800 mAh cells in his truck and call it good: I want to put Brembo red brake calipers on my Toyota minivan. Think they'll make it look faster?:lol:

Lee

More disappointed in HPI... but
 

My little rant was more against HPI's specs, advertising and overall lack of detail in their advice for the Flux. For a RTR basher vehicle that will be sold to a lot of inexperienced people, the lack of good advice, and worse, the promotion of bad advice is irresponsible to their customers IMO and will cost everyone a lot of money needlessly.

However, the comments I see coming out of Castle are also confusing.
This is all the relevant specs I see of the MMM combo the Flux is based on:

ESC:
Cells: 6s LiPo
Continuous: 120A* (I guess they've done away with the ambiguous "More than you can handle" )
Motor:
Max Input Volts: 25.2
Amp Rating*: 120

The Flux manual just says upto 3S batts and recommends 25C batts. No where does capacity get mentioned. CC's site says little about batteries other than Brian @ Tanic can make you A123 packs (which I swear to God at one point I saw people blaming A123s for MMM poofing back at the v1 era.)

Not only that, you get information from CC guys themselves that further the confusion:

Previous post
So that was a little while ago, but the same problem is still on going. The MMM manual says nothing other than to look for "low resistance" cells, and not use Tamiya connectors, and better batts give better results.

Nowhere, nowhere does anyone give some useful information in an absolute sense. Everything is relativistic. Todays "cheap" cells (like zippies and others) would have been kings just a few years ago when the MM came out. Then the expensive packs were 20C. So are 20C FP and TP packs crap now and will blow up a MMM? Seriously.

How is someone just going to a LHS (or even running one) supposed to make good decisions? Not only are these batts prolly not even available at LHSs, but the people working there are not likely experts on highend lipos and "ripple voltages" in ESCs. On top of that you have CC guys running around the internet saying you can void your warr by using sh1tty cells, but won't say what are the sh1tty cells and which are not.

By reading what Patrick wrote once upon a time, a 10C/15C TrueRc 8000 mah pack should be plenty for a MMM. Those are cheap cells, prolly fairly high resistance, but they meet the specs. So does a 30C/50C 2500 mah pack. Really? I have one from Neu I use on a CRT.5, but I wouldn't trust it on a Flux w/ a 1Y on 6S. (and happens to put out no more power than a 25C 2100 pack from zippy on the ET...)


Ok, I understand why CC wants to not disqualify some vendors packs, and can't be expected to test every cell out there. But, that doesn't mean they should just then be vague and expect people to listen to others online (who may or may not be FOS.)
Why can't CC at least have a few "Tested and Approved Packs" list to go with the hardware. I've worked with a lot of computer components, and at least they give a few part#s that have been tested and known to work. An end user can find those, or try to use his own that meet the same specs, but its considered untested at that point.
EG.: A motherboard maker: MB x123 has been tested with Ram modules:
Patriot #23423 1gb CL2 168pin 3.3V
Crucial #34534 512mb CL2
Infineon #234234 1gb CL2
Etc etc.
They are not endorsing or slandering any particular Ram, but at least give end users information and practical specs and examples to go by. Right now information just seems dodgy. "Oh, your MMM flamed out on XyZ batts? What C rating? 22C?! Ohh... Yeah you should know not to use those. Too bad you just ruined $200 worth of equipment... Better luck next time. Make sure you spend a lot more on the next ones"

Finnster --

Unfortunately, there are literally hundreds of thousands of combinations of pinions, spurs, batteries, tires, etc... that we can't "rubber stamp" every possible combination -- or even a subset of 'em.

Use common sense. Don't gear for 120mph on a 16lb truck. Don't start with the largest pinion you can find because "it'll be really fast dude!" Check you temps after runs, and make sure you aren't exceeding safe temperatures.

You could potentially damage ANY ESC and motor WITH ANY BATTERY if you are not careful with the setup.

So testing and approving a list of cells would be useless - - - I can hear the tech support call now...

Caller: "I was using an approved battery and the MMM failed"
Tech support: "What was the gear ratio you were using?"
Caller: "Oh, I was using a 35 tooth pinion and a 35 tooth spur, so 1:1"
<Sound of the Tech Support guy beating his head against the keyboard>


And it's not that "Brand A" 30C batteries always work, and "Brand C" 30C batteries never work -- that's the point I've been trying to make. Pretty much any batteries will work if you use them within their limits. It's just that the limits change from battery type to battery type.

Our return rates on the MMM are EXTREMELY LOW, so very very few people are having issues of any kind. It may seem high, but we have shipped almost 12,000 Mamba Monsters to date -- and have seen VERY VERY few problems.

If you are careful with your setups, measure temperatures, run conservative gearing, you won't have problems.

If you constantly push the system, don't measure temps, and abuse everything, you will have problems.

It's that simple.

Patrick, just require users to take an IQ test prior to purchase (or honoring warranty claims) and do not sell to anyone with a result lower than 100. Should weed out the inbreeders. :smile:

This is very similar to auto makers and recommendations on fuel. They will not tell you which brands are good/bad, but in some cases you are informed on what octane level to use (minimum 89 or 92). And we all know that at some point in time, you have put 87 in that tank....."nobody will ever know"....! Castle as a company, has to reserve the right to evaluate a situation to the best of their ability, and determine a failure root cause. Yes, 90% of the time its the idiot on the other end of the credit card. I've been that idiot, and likely will be again. And while I may be frustrated with a seemingly low amount of information available to me, I will be able to understand the warranty limitations.

Finnster - I too feel for the average shmo buying a Flux or ERBL from a hobby shop. The knowledge base in hobby shops is typically so low, I can only imagine what type of battery systems a sticker shocked soccer mom is going to buy for her spoiled yup-yup son, let alone what Venom chrger are they going to end up with for that pair of Trackpowers (assuming they pop for some of the better, more common packs LHS carry). I'd be a little concerned if I were CC, HPI, or Traxxas.

BTW, This has actually been a very informative thread for me to read, despite the obvious frustrations some are having.

Back off the timing/gearing and the low grade stuff usually works fine.

I think we need to keep in mind that the flux and erbl are "step up" vehicles... So most urchasers have some idea about electric rc prior to getting them. Most are not going to drop close to a grand if they do not know what they are getting into.

I do agree that the instructions should have sme sort of "gearing while testing" info that would accompany using a temp gauge. Something well written like the traxxas nitro break in instructions. Baseline info for gearing could be attached, along with the formulas (or a link to BG's site) to calculate speed and gearing... This is about the only way to work around the various falsly claimed lipos.

CC does provide a pinion with the monster combos, I am guessing it is an 18t or so, to give good all around performance in an emaxx or erevo...

Hpi's manual is quite poor, and really needs to address the gearing a bit more. Std gearing advice is necessary, such as start low, and temp frequently.

We must be related somehow, I hate Shell gas too... I also notice that Shell is always more expensive than exxon, despite exxon producing better results...

Are there that many newbies starting out with a $1k brushless truck? What ever happened to working your way up to the big toys?

Lee

I think it is mostly a different kind of newbie - not the kid just getting into it - dad buys him an xl5 rustler and buys himself the Flux or BL ERevo. Still a newbie - but one with discretionary income. :)

Instant gratification! Or sometimes rich people get curious!

Good for the hobby, we need more pestering kids to get their dads into buying the really good stuff. That way when they break it and try to sell it used i can get some great deals!!!

In all seriousness maybe we should get together and write up some guidelines to properly setting up the MMM combo and see if CC will incorporate it somehow into their instructions? Just a thought...

Sadly, I know of several myself that would go out and drop 1K on something that will impress their friends. They dont look at it as something that they need to learn and understand - its simply the biggest, baddest, fastest thing the drone behind the counter sells. The same sales guy that sells a rustler to a kid while telling him that "yeah it will run fine in grass" will also sell one of these with no questions asked.

I know quite a few RC'ers that have never looked at information online for the hobby. They rely completely on what their LHS tells them. When I ask them questions, they get that same blank look that my LHS guys give me when I ask them about certain products we here know in depth.

Linc, I think you may be on to something with your idea on the "tuning" instructions. Knowledge is power.

This is all great stuff... somewhat dis-heartening, but good stuff. I would consider myself a newbie, with SOME experience. I purchased an E-Firestorm and dropped in a Castle 5700 (with NIMH), followed that with a nitro PE, then an E-Revo (stock), then an 18R and added the brushless and a LIPO... THEN, bought the big boy (for me), the CC MM Combo for the E-Revo. Having the Firestorm and the 18R as brushless, yes, they prepare you some what for the bigger truck, but there is no way I would have had the desire (and possibly the need to) view a forum or a thread such as this. It wouldn't have been relevant. The cars and motors on the smaller stuff is much more "disposable" if that is fair. As stated above, now that there is a grand into this car... I'm going to make damn sure I'm doing some research. There should be a huge disclaimer that, a. you need to know what your doing, and b. you need to know what your doing. I have Zippy's with all stock gearing (19/68) and I'm increadibly concerned that my batteries may now kill my ESC. From the sound of this thread, if that happens, that's just too bad for me. If you read the misc threads found here and on other forums (tx), numerous people are geared up much higher than I am... and promoting it. If you are a newbie and reading and trusting these forums, you're destine to destroy these parts.

My two cents.

I do appreciate the knowledge in this forum as well as the responses from Castle and those users that have the experience and the electrical knowledge to back it up.

Yep. You have that right big guy!

I can safely say that there are not many inexpensive 4s lipos that can run a monster combo... Unless you plan to parallel a pair of 4s 3000+mah 20c lipos...

5s and lower gearing is a much better choice for the 2200 motor, as it opens up some pack choices. 6s I am not so sure about. Spins the motor a bit faster than I like, but I guess it is ok. With 6s and lower gearing I am sure a pair of 5000mah 20-25c 3s lipos wil do fine.

Was that a sales pitch?!?!?!:lol: I REALLY like the idea of 5S also - which is also a down fall of these new trucks - so far, one is limited to either 2x2S or 2x3S. I'm thinking 5S saddle style packs.......

6S and lower gearing for around 40-45mph would be a great setup and I agree some 20C 5000mah lipos would work great. I'm running 5S on my 2200 and I like it too for runtime and temps. I think 4S for an MT is an absolute min and you are at risk over overheating the motor, but not the MMM from what I have seen. Heck so even the guy with the 1800mah 25C lipo will be ok as long as he gears down and is within spec for what his battery and can put out. When I got started I bought some ebay 10C lipos, ran my calcs and thought everything would work out great. After I started testing the batteries they were good for more like 3C instead of 10C. Even someone that knows how to run the calcs and knows what he is doing can get burnt. Its really taken a lot of reading on this forum and others in addition to a lot of testing, measuring temps etc etc to really figure out how to correctly run this stuff.

You just contradicted yourself. You say that the 1800 25c lipos will be fine, then say your 10c lipos were not up to spec... Your last line is pure truth though!

@FDK: I wouldn't put it quite like that. I seriously doubt you will kill your esc just bc you run zippies. I'm sure Patrick is right that the failure rate is actually quite low. I have run cheap packs in all the various 1/8 BL and other vehicles I've had over the last few years and have yet to kill one of them. Just be careful with them and have a temp gun handy to watch things until you get the system setup right and reliable.
Over geared speed runs, loose slippers, towing and WOT in sand are things that kill BL fastest.

But yes, you do need to know what you are doing, and the manuals and LHS are very little help. Its said to use common sense, but these big and powerful BL 1/8th systems are not that common yet, so few have much experience, and some have little sense. When it doubt, treat it like a $1K truck and don't abuse it (despite what OEMs are telling you to do with it.)

Otherwise, I'm not going to push this point forever. One gets my point and agrees with it or doesn't. In my experience, there are few people who know how these things really work, few that have used them, and so good info is a bit scarce. Even on the internet. The people at my LHS knew nothing of BL aside from helis and some planes, but never about larger cars. When in doubt they went by website info or manuals (later on when the VXLs came out and whatnot.) Sort of like this comedy of errors. So many wrong theories and info its a bit funny, but I see the RCM crew was there to jump in and help out. At my LHS, they would ask me if I was around and I could talk to customers better than they could. It wasn't uncommon to see some parent or guy buy a truck, not know how to run it, constantly going back for repairs/parts, get pissed and become a former customer.

Furthermore, how many RC mag articles have we seen now that have totally wrong/misleading info? They use batts totally undersized for the job. Look at even the Flux review in Xtreme RC this month. They used 3200 or 3600 lipos for the 6S testing. Runtime a whopping 7mins. Great return on a $1k investment. Watch out for the nitro convert stampede. How long do you think those batts would live like that? No rationale to why those batts were chosen. Not a terrible review tho. Compare that to the Fine Design LST done a while back using a 4S 3200 lipo pack. Did 50mph for 6 glorious minutes, and the lipo pack was too hot to hold when it came out the truck. But it kicked ass and was only $1200. 0_o And these are supposed to be the guys teaching people stuff.

I think a good and detailed BL primer would be of great help to someone just jumping into large scale BL, either new to RC, nitro converts, or someone who just saw it in a mag and got pumped. TRX gives a whole DVD on breaking and tuning a nitro motor with their RTRs, as they know plenty of n00bs buy RTR kits and don't want pissed off people wanting replacements on broken parts b/c they didn't know what they were doing yet. BL is just as complicated, and you need to know what to look for and troubleshoot and what to change when. Doesn't need to be a PhD course, but at least BL 101. A.) Battery selection. B.) Gearing C.) Temperatures D.) Troubleshooting & Maintenance

if only there was a way to get this important info out to the newbies out there...
i mean...WHO in their right mind would use 18 cell nimh batts????
there need to be gearing guidelines, maby a gearing chart?
in the castle manual or castle link CD a link to brian G's gearing calculator?

BUT after hearing the above castle rep stating that the return rate is very low...that makes me very happy :D

Finnster: Thanks, feel a little better. I mostly bash in front of my house in the street. I think the only thing I'll absolutely change is my breaking. I'll soften it up a bit. In dirt/off-road, I think the motor will see less stress. Temp gun... it's been in my hand from the beginning. So far, I've seen good numbers, ~110-150 degrees.

Wow I let a cat out here didn't I?

The main reason I initially asked is that when I bought my Flux (my 32nd RC to be blunt, and only one I still have now) I thought I had a bit of knowledge on me, 2 MMM's down, 4 MM's, a Brushless E-Savage that I had running uber sweet, and then this manual tells me to GEAR UP for 6s? The Manual even states 4s - use 20t pinion, 6s - use 25t pinion, I mean WTF?

I know my 5000mah 30C 2s Lipos haul the truck around happily on 4s with the 20t pinion (on a 100 degree day the packs come off after 20-25 minutes at 130 max), my intention was to run 6s with say an 18t pinion, which is contrary to the manual, and locally the HPI distributor in Australia has been implying that if you run anything "other" than the 25t pinion on 6s you may be out of warranty? This all stemmed from someone running Maxcramp packs on a 6s set up with a 20t pinion and blowing the ESC.

So my query was, could I, on stock gearing (20/44) run a 6s Lipo set up - Dual Zippy H 5000mah 3s 20-30C and be "reasonably within spec"

I know if I gear down to 18t I'd pull less amps, but I was concerned that the HPI Australia distributor and the Manual were telling me to run 25t

so I wondered, had I missed something?

As it stands now? I do wish to try a 6s set up, but am thinking 18/47 is a better starting point and really watch my temps.

Is this reasonable or do I need my head examined?

...my last RC was a Baja, so it's possible all that two stroke got to me!