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As the saying goes, the problem with pointing your finger is that you have three pointing backing at you.
I can understand AZ's frustration when you have some 600K+ illegals in a state of 6-7M, a completely porous border, and a Federal response that has been completely lacking for a decade. That said, I think their law is a bad option pulled from a hat only having bad and worse options. Mandating a gov't LEO (law enforc. officer) can apply an arbitrarily "Americanness test" and arrest anyone who isn't carrying gov't papers seems about as un-American as a law can get, and a huge expansion of gov't powers. Especially when the Gov who signed it doesn't even have the balls to say what a "real American" vs an illegal even looks like. Overall their law represents the national failure to properly deal with the issue. IMO, the nation is schizophrenic to its immigration towards Mexico. Fact is we need that source of cheap labor to provide the economic competitiveness and std of living we all enjoy. Illegal numbers peaked at the same time unemployment was 5-6% (nearly full employment) which proves the demand in the economy for more laborers. Mex labors get a source of jobs and cash which is sent home to help build their country (a net good thing for US.) Business groups the marketplace has very much welcomed this labor force. OTOH, we want them to come here, work all the shit jobs for pennies, and then go back to their apartments and stay invisible people. Don't be seen in public, we don't want to hear your language, hear your music, or be exposed to or inconvenienced by your culture. We don't want people, we want ghosts. We want all the benefits, w/o the tradeoffs. I don't hate on the Mexicans who come here to work. I actually have a lot of respect for them. They are willing to venture off away from their families, pay hard-earned money to smugglers, risk death crossing deserts all for the chance to come to a foreign place who is hostile to them, to work grueling 4-50+hr/wk jobs chopping up dead animals, or picking vegetables in the blazing sun, cleaning garbage, digging ditches and the other dangerous and disgusting jobs they come here to do for very little pay. They then go home to cramped apts they share with other workers, and send much of the earnings home to support their wives, kids and parents. My cousin owns a large landscaping company, and my mom's cousin owns a med-large commercial orchard and farm, both in Colorado. They try to hire legals as best they can determine, but most workers are Mexican regardless. These guys kick ass. I've seen the machismos get into races laying sod, so much they were running with two 40lb logs of sod on their shoulders in 100F+ heat until the entire truck is empty. They then brag who laid the most and fastest. My cousin will hire white guys or whoever, but they never last. (Face it, if you are easily replaced by a guy who speaks no english and has a 5th grade education, you have not taken much advantage of this country's world class educational system to make yourself a more valuable worker.) The gringos who do get hired, usually dirtbags who can't get a better job, are often late to work, slow, constantly complain and want to take breaks, want more money 3 days after they have started, and sometimes don't ever show up to work. Its rare to find one who isn't useless or doesn't quit the first day after he finds out how hard the job is. Pay more for Americans? How much would you have to pay to find someone who would put up with a back breaking job like that? No, Americans who are hard-working and motivated get educations so they can work in skilled trades or professional jobs in air conditioned offices with extended eat out lunches on Fridays so they don't have to do shit like that. Long post, but my opinions boil down to this: -We need these people in our economy, else decide we are going to pay much more for less and have our products (incl Ag products) less competitive overseas due to increased labor costs. -Form an immigration policy that has some roots in economic reality and can actually control the flow. The Guest Worker program Bush proposed may would have been one of his few not-terrible ideas. Whatever works for everyone. -Guest workers should be mostly limited to unskilled labor. Don't destroy middle class skilled jobs by letting illiterate workers who don't understand codes just come in and slop crap together for cheap. -I don't care who has what flag on their car. If we are going to ban Mex flags, lets ban Italian flags and Puerto Rican flags too. They are everywhere here. Seen Jersey Shore? Yes, the guidos are real. -Building a fence to solve the problem will be as effective as building a Bat Signal, but will waste a lot more money. Sure, may slow and push some routes out of cities and into the rural areas, but it will not stop anything. The Gaza border is less than 40 miles, and Isreal/Egypt can't even stop them from building tunnels large enough to import cars thru. US-Mexico is 2000 miles though mountains and deserts. Good F'ing luck. - End/re-think The Drug War. Drug smuggling, mafias and criminality get all mixed into the economic migration. Mex cartels get most of their money (billions) from selling weed to us. They use the money to corrupt the gov't, impoverish the country, and ensure a permanent 3rd world status. We've spent $1T on the drug war, and all its bought us the worlds largest prison population and higher rates of drug use than ever. Even just de-crim/legalizing weed would largely defund the cartels and reduce our wasted tax $ here. In the end, immigration will always be a strong force as long as Mex is a poor, horribly corrupt, crime-infested country with little opportunity and people wanting to flee. Imagine the strength of the continent if we had a country as modern and industrialized as Canada on both our borders. It can happen in time. |
Wow
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If you think about what drives people to extreme acts, it's often not what seems the best fit, it may be a variety of reasons. It might be because the isolated, persecuted, ignored etc...like McVeigh |
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When a dog does something out of line you reprimand it fast and firmly (swift kick in the guts usually works), no difference in my mind. |
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There's a lot of different ways to consider the issues he raises. I don't know that fortifying your community is the solution though. PP do you think it's the best solution to dealing with the issue...do you feel you need to do it to feel safe? |
Don't know
Look I don't know if building a fence or a wall is the best or the safest way to handle the situation, but at least something is being done. If there is a better solution, then it needs to be brought to the attention of our Gov so a change in the right direction can be made. Complaining about the way they are handling one matter or another, without a viable solution is just wasting one's breath. Any move in a positive direction to resolve a problem is better than doing nothing at all. What comes to mind in this matter is exactly what happened to the Jews for taking the passive approach when Hitler was trying to exterminate them from the face of the Earth.
Listen I don't come in here to piss in anyones weaties, but some peoples views just amaze the hell out of me. I love our country for the life it allows for each of us and the opportunities it provides because of the patriots, and heros who lead the way and gave us what we have today. I'll be dammed if I am going to sit by and watch it crumble because we have become to weak to protect our own borders because we may offend some visitors sensibillities. Our country has always stood its ground and fought for the right to decide how we were going to do things our own way without letting anyone else interfer with our plans. I have lived in many different countries around the world and although some of them are doing pretty well compared to the rest of the planet there are very few places outside of the USA that I would consider retiring. If you really think our Gov is screwed up try living in Mexico, Perto Rico, Maylasia, or some of the other poor countries around teh globe. We have it good, but we have to do a better job of protecting it. |
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A wall is like a locked door; it only keeps the honest people honest. If someone wants in they will get in, period. Better to eliminate the reasons they want to come here in the first place.
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Don't worry Jerry, your not going to offend me w/ opinions. Essentially I approach this problem as a pragmatist and am skeptical of the idological BS that seems to frame political issues these days.
I do absolutely agree that there is a problem w/ uncontrolled immigration and lack of coherent Federal policy, and states like AZ bear the brunt of it. I grew up in CO, so we had our fair share of illegals too. I also strongly agree there should be a low tolerance to criminality for any guests in this country. There are far too many hardworking and motivated people who would love to come here to tolerate anyone's bull$hit. However, not only do I think this law will do much to stop II, I do fundamentally disagree with the notion that we should be making laws that everyone needs to carry gov't papers with them at all times, and that is a crime to not seem American enough if you get caught w/o your papers. Yeah I'm white, so even tho AZ promises there will be no racial profiling, everyone is going along w/ it with the implicit guarantee that the LEOs are only going to be after brown people. The AZ gov basically admits it by omission. My cousin in Utah is married to a Bolivian, who is a citizen and is earning a law degree, and if they visit AZ, and if he decides he's going to take a walk in the park or go for a hike with his girls and he doesn't bring his wallet, my cousin shouldn't be getting a phone call from an INS detention facility that her family got arrested bc Dad still speaks with an accent and his english is still a bit rough. That's just F'd up and I don't care who you are. Also, I work in the science field and we manufacture medical devices. I do think America is very skilled at manufacturing. We have European (or better) level of quality for much less expensive. The products China build are cheaper, but far inferior in quality and trustworthiness. We lose out on the low end as sometimes crappy is good enough. However, on the high end, what I am not seeing is many Americans with the skills and education to do the technical jobs. Just in my area I work with people (scientists/engineers) from China, India, Nigeria, Kenya, Sudan, Poland, Russia, Czech R., Philippenes, Pakistan, Greece, UK, Hiati, Dom Rep, Puerto Rico, Costa Rica, Brazil, Camaroon, to name a few. I'm not sure Americans are even the majority. My brother in law is a Chem E professor and its a similar story. Few qualified American graduate students to choose from, so the dept accepts many students from India and China with the neccessary background and accomplishment. Nursing school is another good example of this. So the question I ask, why are all these Americans out protesting and complaining about Mexicans coming and stealing their shitty jobs digging ditches for $8/hr? If your job is easily replacable by an illiterate from a 3rd world country, then you need to get your ass back to school and get a better education because there are thousands of high paying jobs going to legal H1 visa holders who have little American competition. Its rather pathetic actually given the opportunity citizens are born into here. I also think low wage Mexicans/etc also contribute alot to American business competitiveness. I think the nation could do a lot more "low end" manufacturing combining American management techniques, innovation, and solid infrastructure with low wage guest workers to keep labor costs low, thus prices low, to compete better with crappy Chinese goods. Alot of other things need to happen too, but we also have to get over the xenophobia and start looking at the business opportunities. IMO, the Mexican infracture is too poor and the govt too corrupt to effectively utilize their low wage resource. We can take advantage of that for everyone's benefit. If in the end we send a portion of this prosperity back to Mexico to build that country, enlarge the middle class, are create a larger consumer economy for American goods, all the better for us. The future prosperity for America is not going to be built on protectionism and low skill jobs for lazy & lowly educated natives. The world is catching up and we need to work harder and be smarter if we want to keep the privledges we have. |
Finnster nailed it. Like I said in my posts, a lot of people are not pointing the finger at the source of the problem. I can guarantee, if the US Gov, gives the so called Illegal some sort of Tax I.D. Number like many Brasilians I know have, they would have to pay their taxes like everyone else. If they don't follow through, legal actions should be taken afterwards. I just hope the Mexican Gov. doesn't close down all the US or other foreign factories and/or companies in Mexico. Think about it now, Castle has a manufacturing place in Mexico. If that happens there, you will know other countries will probably do the same which is not good for any of us here in the USA.
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Again read the law and stop quoting Napolitano/Holder/Pelosi/Calderon/Obama and the rest of the people quoting garbage that has no resemblance to the truth. So don't claim to not be an ideologue when clearly your views and points all clearly reflections of liberal/socialist philosophy. I cannot also understand the talk about ID cards and SS numbers to get these people legal when in fact they are breaking the law by their own wheel in the first place. What makes you think just because congress enacts something like that all of the illegals would jump in line, start paying their taxes! Stop the handouts and enforce the laws we have now. Last point specifically to Lutach: If an American citizen wants to work these so called crappy jobs it's their right. What makes you so superior to say the American citizen shouldn't but the illegal immigrant can? There are many people no matter how much school that won't have the mental capacity to do much above ditch digging and other manual remedial labor. In turn I have had people like this who work for me and they have some of the best work ethics I have ever seen hands down. I paid them well and treated just like any other employee I had working for me. Several of my closest friends are immigrants, however they came here legally and went through the correct process to obtain legalized status be it visa, green card, or full citizenship. Why should others get to bypass the processes simply because they want to? One of mine and my wife's closest friends is from Mexico city, she immigrated legally as a teenager with her parents and now has two children who were born here. She has been trying to gain citizenship for over ten years and has to fight to keep her status. She also works, pays taxes, and is a productive person. Tell me why an illegal should just be handed the rights and privileges she has worked so hard for? What many cannot seem to get through their heads is that most of these people do not want to pay taxes. They want the handouts and freebies that come with crossing the border illegally. Like BrianG said, cut this out and most of them will leave because the incentive to come will be gone. The good ones will work on immigrating legally like it should be. |
As a non US Citizen living (legally) in America I've been advised since I came here 5 years ago to carry at all times ID that shows I'm allowed to be in the US ligitimately...
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Senate Engrossed State of Arizona Senate Forty-ninth Legislature Second Regular Session 2010 SENATE BILL 1070 AN ACT AMENDING TITLE 11, CHAPTER 7, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES, BY ADDING ARTICLE 8; AMENDING TITLE 13, CHAPTER 15, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES, BY ADDING SECTION 13-1509; AMENDING SECTION 13-2319, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES; AMENDING TITLE 13, CHAPTER 29, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES, BY ADDING SECTIONS 13-2928 AND 13-2929; AMENDING SECTIONS 23-212, 23-212.01, 23-214 AND 28-3511, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES; AMENDING TITLE 41, CHAPTER 12, ARTICLE 2, ARIZONA REVISED STATUTES, BY ADDING SECTION 41-1724; RELATING TO UNLAWFULLY PRESENT ALIENS. (TEXT OF BILL BEGINS ON NEXT PAGE) S.B. 1070 - 1 - 1 Be it enacted by the Legislature of the State of Arizona: 2 Section 1. Intent 3 The legislature finds that there is a compelling interest in the 4 cooperative enforcement of federal immigration laws throughout all of 5 Arizona. The legislature declares that the intent of this act is to make 6 attrition through enforcement the public policy of all state and local 7 government agencies in Arizona. The provisions of this act are intended to 8 work together to discourage and deter the unlawful entry and presence of 9 aliens and economic activity by persons unlawfully present in the United 10 States. 11 Sec. 2. Title 11, chapter 7, Arizona Revised Statutes, is amended by 12 adding article 8, to read: 13 ARTICLE 8. ENFORCEMENT OF IMMIGRATION LAWS 14 11-1051. Cooperation and assistance in enforcement of 15 immigration laws; indemnification 16 A. NO OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR 17 OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY ADOPT A POLICY THAT LIMITS OR 18 RESTRICTS THE ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAWS TO LESS THAN THE FULL 19 EXTENT PERMITTED BY FEDERAL LAW. 20 B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY 21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS 22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS 23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, 24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE 25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT 26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). 27 C. IF AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IS 28 CONVICTED OF A VIOLATION OF STATE OR LOCAL LAW, ON DISCHARGE FROM 29 IMPRISONMENT OR ASSESSMENT OF ANY FINE THAT IS IMPOSED, THE ALIEN SHALL BE 30 TRANSFERRED IMMEDIATELY TO THE CUSTODY OF THE UNITED STATES IMMIGRATION AND 31 CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT OR THE UNITED STATES CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION. 32 D. NOTWITHSTANDING ANY OTHER LAW, A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY MAY 33 SECURELY TRANSPORT AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES 34 AND WHO IS IN THE AGENCY'S CUSTODY TO A FEDERAL FACILITY IN THIS STATE OR TO 35 ANY OTHER POINT OF TRANSFER INTO FEDERAL CUSTODY THAT IS OUTSIDE THE 36 JURISDICTION OF THE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY. 37 E. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, WITHOUT A WARRANT, MAY ARREST A PERSON 38 IF THE OFFICER HAS PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THE PERSON HAS COMMITTED 39 ANY PUBLIC OFFENSE THAT MAKES THE PERSON REMOVABLE FROM THE UNITED STATES. 40 F. EXCEPT AS PROVIDED IN FEDERAL LAW, OFFICIALS OR AGENCIES OF THIS 41 STATE AND COUNTIES, CITIES, TOWNS AND OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISIONS OF THIS 42 STATE MAY NOT BE PROHIBITED OR IN ANY WAY BE RESTRICTED FROM SENDING, 43 RECEIVING OR MAINTAINING INFORMATION RELATING TO THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF 44 ANY INDIVIDUAL OR EXCHANGING THAT INFORMATION WITH ANY OTHER FEDERAL, STATE 45 OR LOCAL GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY FOR THE FOLLOWING OFFICIAL PURPOSES: S.B. 1070 |
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1 1. DETERMINING ELIGIBILITY FOR ANY PUBLIC BENEFIT, SERVICE OR LICENSE 2 PROVIDED BY ANY FEDERAL, STATE, LOCAL OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS 3 STATE. 4 2. VERIFYING ANY CLAIM OF RESIDENCE OR DOMICILE IF DETERMINATION OF 5 RESIDENCE OR DOMICILE IS REQUIRED UNDER THE LAWS OF THIS STATE OR A JUDICIAL 6 ORDER ISSUED PURSUANT TO A CIVIL OR CRIMINAL PROCEEDING IN THIS STATE. 7 3. CONFIRMING THE IDENTITY OF ANY PERSON WHO IS DETAINED. 8 4. IF THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN, DETERMINING WHETHER THE PERSON IS IN 9 COMPLIANCE WITH THE FEDERAL REGISTRATION LAWS PRESCRIBED BY TITLE II, CHAPTER 10 7 OF THE FEDERAL IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY ACT. 11 G. A PERSON MAY BRING AN ACTION IN SUPERIOR COURT TO CHALLENGE ANY 12 OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL 13 SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE THAT ADOPTS OR IMPLEMENTS A POLICY THAT LIMITS OR 14 RESTRICTS THE ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAWS TO LESS THAN THE FULL 15 EXTENT PERMITTED BY FEDERAL LAW. IF THERE IS A JUDICIAL FINDING THAT AN 16 ENTITY HAS VIOLATED THIS SECTION, THE COURT SHALL ORDER ANY OF THE FOLLOWING: 17 1. THAT THE PERSON WHO BROUGHT THE ACTION RECOVER COURT COSTS AND 18 ATTORNEY FEES. 19 2. THAT THE ENTITY PAY A CIVIL PENALTY OF NOT LESS THAN ONE THOUSAND 20 DOLLARS AND NOT MORE THAN FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS FOR EACH DAY THAT THE POLICY 21 HAS REMAINED IN EFFECT AFTER THE FILING OF AN ACTION PURSUANT TO THIS 22 SUBSECTION. 23 H. A COURT SHALL COLLECT THE CIVIL PENALTY PRESCRIBED IN SUBSECTION G 24 AND REMIT THE CIVIL PENALTY TO THE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY FOR DEPOSIT IN 25 THE GANG AND IMMIGRATION INTELLIGENCE TEAM ENFORCEMENT MISSION FUND 26 ESTABLISHED BY SECTION 41-1724. 27 I. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER IS INDEMNIFIED BY THE LAW ENFORCEMENT 28 OFFICER'S AGENCY AGAINST REASONABLE COSTS AND EXPENSES, INCLUDING ATTORNEY 29 FEES, INCURRED BY THE OFFICER IN CONNECTION WITH ANY ACTION, SUIT OR 30 PROCEEDING BROUGHT PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION TO WHICH THE OFFICER MAY BE A 31 PARTY BY REASON OF THE OFFICER BEING OR HAVING BEEN A MEMBER OF THE LAW 32 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY, EXCEPT IN RELATION TO MATTERS IN WHICH THE OFFICER IS 33 ADJUDGED TO HAVE ACTED IN BAD FAITH. 34 J. THIS SECTION SHALL BE IMPLEMENTED IN A MANNER CONSISTENT WITH 35 FEDERAL LAWS REGULATING IMMIGRATION, PROTECTING THE CIVIL RIGHTS OF ALL 36 PERSONS AND RESPECTING THE PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES OF UNITED STATES 37 CITIZENS. 38 Sec. 3. Title 13, chapter 15, Arizona Revised Statutes, is amended by 39 adding section 13-1509, to read: 40 13-1509. Trespassing by illegal aliens; assessment; exception; 41 classification 42 A. IN ADDITION TO ANY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, A PERSON IS GUILTY OF 43 TRESPASSING IF THE PERSON IS BOTH: 44 1. PRESENT ON ANY PUBLIC OR PRIVATE LAND IN THIS STATE. 45 2. IN VIOLATION OF 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) OR 1306(a). S.B. 1070 |
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