Which is better? I need Lipo technology.
 

I looked at the FMA lipo packs at towerhobbies( 3200-6400) and they are reasonably priced, but not to be shipped via air, because its "flammable". Now, I dont think that lipos are really prevented from being shipped via air in all hobby shops. Some other places like FMA DIRECT itself or FineDesignRC or ThunderPower do not give such notes and I'm starting to really consider these types of batteries for their amazing characteristics
and exceptional performance. I want to get it from towerhobbies along with the balance pro charger, however, I can get the charger, but not the batts, so...what should I be doing?

If and when you get these. Please let me know what you think of them captain. I have heard alot of good stuff about lipos.Just not sure if I want to put out the money yet. Thanks.

I think I remember Mike or someone saying Mike has the lipos as well. You may want to get in touch with him. Mike may be able to hook you up with some. I could be wrong on this. Hope not!

I asked befor, but he didn't reply. He has been away from the forum most the time. I guess he is working alot.

I use both the 3200 and the 6400 FMA BalancePro packs. I can tell you that both Tower (Great Planes) and Horizon Hobby ship them ground only. I don't know about other shops, but you can be sure that if those two are doing it that there's some regulation about it.
On a performance note, the lipo batteries pack serious punch and sustained performance over nimh. My example is the 4wd buggy class at my local track. I'd been running my xxx-4 with a Peak Dynasty 19t spec motor and 6-cell IB3600 or matched 6-cell GP3300 against a 10t double xxx-4 for a couple weeks. Most of the time I could keep up in the technical parts of the track, but I was easily out run in the straight. My 3200 BalancePro pack came in, I charged it up, and now the 19t can match the 10t motor in the 100' straight.
The big difference is that the lipo packs don't drop voltage under load like the nimh do. It's also nice that it weighs less.

He was just on. Send him a pm. I don't like to bother him some time but you have to do it some time to give him the money.

So you think they worth the money batfish. I know they cost a little more. I just not sure if I want to invest yet.

I have my mailbox in New York and Towerhobbies can ship them to me, but the mailbox of mine which is Aramex( international transportation company) might not do it once they get it. Mike is my hope right now.

If Mike can't get what you want, I bought my bigger packs from tis place:

http://www.espritmodel.com/accesories_batt_thunder.html

I'm pretty sure I got mine via air.

On a side note -- anyone use a cell balancer for their lipos? I saw that MGM Com Pro has one listed on their site, as does TP on the link above. I wonder if I should get one?

Is the Pro Balancer charger considered as a balancer?

The FMA BalancePro charger also balances the cells, yes. Being able to charge up to 3C and automatic balancing with every charge are the two reasons I am willing to spend the extra $ on the BalancePro setup.
Because the 3200 pack barely gets warm in use, and the charger can charge so fast, I use only 1 battery pack for a night of racing. The pack charges fine between races.

The cells in the BalancePro packs are just the standard Kokam 3200mah cells. They are just bundled up with some electronic equipment under the shrink wrap, and then are called BalancePro. So, you could still use the BalancePro charger with the Kokam 3200mah packs, but you will have to buy a charging cable to hook up to the battery.

Although I don't doubt this, there are some things I just won't experiment with myself. I'd rather purchase the assembled, approved packs to use with the BalancePro charger.
I do have a couple of the 3s 3200 packs as well; I just use the ICE to charge them at the normal 1C and I don't balance them. If I buy any of the standard 2s 3200 packs I'll be using the ICE on those, too.

I think the Kokam/FMA lipos are the best.. they have a 20C continuous discharge rate.. every other pack Tanic, Thunder are 12 to 15 coloumbs discharge rate..... Lipo are good for hot, cold.. whatever.. there aren't any liquids inside.. it's just metal and plastic... but Lipo's are a lot more sensitive.. if you puncture it, it will burn.... Lithium deteriate if exposed to air, but when lithium touches water... WOAAAHH BABY... It's burn and glow bright red.. it'll burn a whole in Cement...

I really like the astro flight charger... it's very consistant in charging... plus it can do 9 cells....

Do you see a difference between balanced and un balanced packs? If no difference why get them? If a difference how much?
If you have a pack with the taps on it can you charge it individaully threw the taps?

The Kokam cells also weigh quite a lot for their "20C" continuous rating, which they aren't capable of. They would be better labelled as heavy 15C continous cells that are more robust than standard LiPo cells.
Lipo cells actually don't work well when cold. Performance is increased when their temperature gets to 100 deg. F. There is no elemental Lithium in these batteries, so if the insides of one of these cells touches water, there won't be anything magical.
The Astroflight 109 isn't actually what might be called a standard LiPo charger. Most chargers are "CC/CV", whereas the 109 is somewhat of a pulse charger, which will pulse the cells to 4.35v (this means that it can't really be used with balancers).

An unbalanced Lipo pack can be hazardous. When one is unbalanced, one of the cells can get to a higher voltage than the other cells in the pack during a charge, which will shorten the life of that one cell, thus creating a chain reaction of cells becoming bad. Also, if a pack is unbalanced, one cell can be overdischarged, causing damage to it.
Basically, a balanced pack will ALWAYS be better than an unbalanced one, in terms of performance and safety.
You can't really buy a balanced pack, as the only way to get something like a balanced pack would be to get one with cells that all have similar IRs (internal resistance). Maxamps is the only company that claims to make packs with cells that have a similar IR. This is not an option offered by companies, though.
A pack with taps is always a good thing to have. A pack can be balanced through the taps by charging each individual cell to 4.20v, as opposed to charging the pack as a whole (where imbalances may occur). Depending upon the type of taps, you can only charge at up a certain amp rate (limited by the resistance of the taps).

I know what you saying one the amp through the taps. But that does help me out alot. I was looking running about 6-8 s. Thanks for the info. Not sure if I ready but I may wait a little longer. I would like to try some.

Metalman.. I'm 99.9% sure there is lithium in there.. it's wrapped in some kind of polymer plastics...

The astroflight 109D charges the cell to a maximum of 4.2V, I've checked everytime.... I know it doesn't have a balancer... that's the cr*ppy part.. but it works well for me... it seems the less I care about the batteries, the longer they last.. :)

There is lithium, but it isn't pure lithium. It is in a compound with other elements. If exposed to water, it will not go up in huge flames. In fact, one of the ways to dispose of LiPos is to cut the outer packaging and submerge the cell in salt water.

The Astroflight 109 only sends pulses of 4.35v. It doesn't charge up to that voltage. And because of these pulses, you can charge a battery with the 109 and use a balancer. When it comes to LiPo, it is a good idea to maintain the cells. Things like storing packs at 3.7v per cell and keeping the cells in balance will make your packs last much longer.

So guys, what should I do? I want to use lipo in my touring car with the Kontronik Twist-55 and the Schulze U-force 75. The Scorpion car lipo seems good, but a little priceier. As for the balancepro, they cost a bit less than the scorpion, but the Scorpion is specifically made for usage with brushed and brushless controller( probably thats the reason why its more expensive than the BP) unlike the BP, which like other lipos, works only with controllers that operates lipos. I can always find a way to get them, but I want you people( Metal Man and the rest of the gang) to help me get the best lipo setup with a reasonable price. My eyes are set upon the FMA BalancePro 6400 pack with the BalancePro charger from Towerhobbies. What do you think of it?

If you're prepared to spend the $, there is no safer, complete, all-in-one system than the FMA/Kokam systems (Scorpion or BalancePro) at this time. The difference between the two is that the Scorpion has a built-in low-voltage cutoff (LVC) and the BalancePro doesn't. You can purchase FMA's LVC for less than $20 and install it in your vehicle to accomodate whatever 2s lipo pack you put in it.
I chose to go with the BalancePro since most of my ESCs have cutoff protection and I can purchase the LVC for those that don't, which saves me money in the end over purchasing the Scorpion system.

No other systems come with such a high safe charge rate and cell balancing right out of the box. Others either have taps or require you to install taps to charge individual cells for balancing purposes. I'll take a pre-configured pack any day :)

Great. I think the U-Force75 has a 3V cutoff protection, right?

Maybe ur right...

I have one dead Li Po cell.. I'm goin' to take it apart.. jsut to see.. :)

The U-Force can be programmed for Lipo, but I think you need to do it via a computer (which means a PC cable).

aqwut - There won't be any problems, I guarantee it ;). I stabbed a couple of dead (puffed) Lipo cells a couple of months ago with the back end of a hammer, and if there was elemental lithium, it would have ignited with the oxygen in the air. But it didn't :(.

ive only had experience with polyquest cells and i dont have a reason to use anything different. i understand that the fma packs have everything built in but the price seems a bit outrageous, IMHO. you can get 2 2s3100 packs for around $120 at cheapbatterypacks.com or purehobby.com. they both will ship by air. tear the shrink wrap off and shrink the two packs together, wire them in parallel and you have a 6200mah pack that is smaller than a 6 cell nimh. the polyquest packs are easy to balance yourself. starting from the red wire on the plug and going left to right, wire 1 and 2 are cell one, wire 2 and 3 are cell two, and so on. wire two small male pins on the end of a deans plug and when you find a cell a little off balance, charge it a little on its own. i have had little problems with cells out of balance, out of 6 different packs i have only had to balance a few cells. i use the ice charger and it works great. the 6200mah pack im talking about is used in a tc4 with a lehner 5300, it is a very nice setup cause it fits in the battery tray. it has the mgm 80 controller which has the lvc, i dont know if the uforce has it but i have one of the fma inline lvc devices and it works great. its nice because you have the option to set the lvc at any voltage you want. im my opinion, a lipo pack under a heavy load will need a 2.8v cutoff instead of the 3v. some think that is too low but its only for those big amp spikes that bring your voltage down.
so, if i were to spend 250 dollars, i would rather have 2 6200 mah packs than one. just my 2 cents. hope this helps.

fearandloathing,
I do completely understand and agree that there are other, less-expensive options compared to the FMA system(s). This is why I prefaced most of my comments with stating that the $ amount needs to be considered. Personally, it's worth the expense to me to let the system handle it. Since my two daughters were born, my time has become more important to me than my money and I'd rather spend time with my family than to individually charge cells :)

My battery maintenance is almost completely confined to race night now, which is much better than spending hours during the week discharging and cycling packs in preparation. Since the FMA BalancePro system is fast enough to put the energy used from a race back into the pack before the next race AND keep them balanced while doing it, it's a no-brainer for me...and I need all the "no-brainers" I can get ;)

I just bought 5S LiPo from Cheapbatterypack.com. They are having sales rite now. I hope Polyquest 20C cells are as good as TP and kokam..

batfish, your right about the fast charge option with the fma packs and you dont have to worry about checking for yourself, if they are balanced. that is a factor i did not weigh in when comparing products. if i were a competitive racer, i would surely end up going with the fma packs, mainly because you can charge them so quickly. im just a daily basher and i have nothing but time on my hands, it can get really boring in afghanistan when there are no broken helicopters.:C:

elemental lithium won't ignite in the air.. it'll ignite in water.. when expose to air.. it will just turn to ashes... depending on the humidity... if you leave them as flakes like they are in the cells they won't ignite.. but if you bunch it all up in a ball.. it's pretty dangerous stuff.. use gloves.. :)

the FMA/Kokam scorpion can be charged at 3C

hey fear, you can ket the kokam 2 cell from tower hobbies for $80 from tower hobbies.. and they have a 64A continuous discharge rate...20C

those packs from Cheapbatterypacks.. are only 15C max continuous.... but they're advertised as 20C.. the FMA's are true 20C continuous discharge rate.... and only $5 more.. :)

From what I have read that was posted by people that have great experience with testing Lipos is that the Kokam 3200mah cells should only be considered ~16C cells.

I just looked at a 15C graph for the Polyquest 1200mah 20C. At 15C, it delivers almost 100% capacity! At 15C, the Kokam 3200mah cell can only deliver 93% capacity. Also, at 15C, the Polyquest 1200mah puts out about 0.1v higher average than the Kokam 3200mah.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...kokam-3200.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...xp1200test.jpg

Sounds like i made a right choice by buying the Polyquest..:D

I like the PQ packs, but the Kokams can deliver the power much better. Captain-LMK what you need and we can work out the delivery.

What's the fuzz with the balancer pro pack? you could simple add taps to the Kokam 3200's and use the TP balancer. Those kokam 3200's are they soldered or spotwelded?

I like graphs.... but I guess you won't really know unless you have both packs.. I'm gonna get me a polyquest pack.. to test out.. :)..

but thanks for the info Metalman...

I've always known that you would always be handful to me and to the rest of our friends, Therapist. Thanks a million. Anyway, I guess I'll wait untill I have enough bucks to get my lipos from you and probably I'll buy more IBC3800 in the near future as well. I'll e-mail you as soon as I want to place an order;) .