CC "Stock" motor
 

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree---Is it feasible for CC to build a Delta wound motor for Stock class vehicles? I like to run Stock class (TC etc) but I can't use my CC speed controls on 17.5 motors. I know ROAR would reject it because it doesn't fit the current standard-but they (ROAR) really need to get their head out of their duffle bag. Many tracks use ROAR rules as a standard and if there was a CC motor that ran like a 17.5 it would be very well appreciated. And people could use their CC speed controls. Don

Your are not the only one complaining about ROAR and how they need to change things around to accomadate the new technology/make new classes of racing.

At the very least, they should allow users to set up their ESC to emulate the performance of a 17.5 motor. Maybe they could approve the ESC settings, and then make sure everyone has those settings loaded? A PITA to be sure, but it would allow CC in the game without having to "downgrade" their motors to suit an aging standard...

Some people seem to run roar legal motors just fine on their MM. I think the orion motors can be run without issues.

I also heard that,but only the high power ones;ie 3.5-8.5. I haven't heard of any people successfully running a 17.5 and a MM or Sidewinder. Don

You could try a tekin Redline 632 (3200kv) on 2s. Their redline sensorless motors are similar to castle motors, but there are more kv options.

If Novak KV #'s are accurate, the 17.5 is 2200. I did find that Offshore Electrics has a Feigao 540 S 16T with a KV of 2218. But I really don,t know how close that would get. This idea that it has to be a Wye wind (ROAR) is BS. It makes my CC controls useless for stock class. Don

They specify the wind type? Sounds like they are trying to keep people from finding loopholes. I don't know how the rules are written, but I assume they specify a turn count? If so, it makes sense because you get 1.73x more kv in a delta vs a wye for the same wind. Simple solution: just specify a kv range and be done with it! But that makes wayyy too much sense. :sarcastic:

Yes, they do. Does anyone know if the rotors are "380" size or "540" in Novak 3.5-21.5 motors? How would they compare to a Feigao 540S? Don

ROAR motor rules:

The motor must be a sensored type using a six position JST ZH connector model number ZHR-6 or equivalent connector with 6 JST part number SZH-002T-PO.5 26-28 awg contacts or equivalent. Wire sequence must be as follows:
Pin #1- Black wire-ground potential
Pin #2- Orange wire-phase C
Pin #3- White wire-phase B
Pin #4- Green wire-phase A
Pin #5- Blue wire-temp control, 10 k Thermistor referenced to ground potential
Pin #6- Red wire-+ 5.0 volts =/- 10%
For clarification pin #1 is on the left hand side of the above connector with the wires
exiting the top of the connector and the plastic tangs that hold the contacts in the
housing are facing forward. See drawing below.





Sensored type compatible speed controls must use the six position JST header part number X-6B-ZRSMX-TK (where the X denotes the style of the header), or equivalent.
The power connector for all type speed controls has to be clearly marked A, B, C. on both speed control and motor.
A for phase A
B for phase B
C for phase C

8.X.Y.3 Brushless motor dimensions and requirements.

8.X.Y.3.1 Can:
Comment: There were requests to identify the timing of the motor and none was offered as a reference, so there isn’t any requirement for timing to be identified. The motors currently designed to this specification have timing rings that give the user the ability to adjust the timing to some degree. So as it stands now, there isn’t any requirement for fixed timing or a limit to the timing of the motor.

Overall maximum diameter is 36.02mm measured at whatever point yields the
maximum dimension, excluding solder tabs or lead wires. Overall minimum diameter is
34.00mm measured at whatever point yields the minimum dimension, excluding solder
tabs or lead wires. Maximum length is 53.00mm measured from the mounting face of the
motor to the furthest most point of the end bell, not including solder tabs, lead wires or
original manufacturer’s logo or name. Minimum length is 50.00mm measured from the
mounting face of the motor to the furthest most point of the end bell, not including solder
tabs, lead wires or original manufacturer’s logo or name. Motor mounting holes must be
on 25.00mm to 25.40mm centers.

8.X.Y.3.2 Stator: The stator construction must be continuous laminations having the same overall shape, one after the other without anything in between. The laminations must be of one homogeneous material without cutouts, holes or hollow sections other than for the three slots for the round copper coil wires and the three slots for the screws used to hold the entire can together. The overall stator length parallel to the motor shaft shall be minimum 19.3 mm and maximum 21.0 mm. The thickness of the laminations shall be 0.35+/- 0,05 mm. A “Go/No Go” gauge 14.500 +0.000/-0.005 mm diameter shall pass into the stator, clearing the stator plus it’s windings and the electrical collection ring at the end of the stator.

8.X.Y.3.3 Winding: Only three slot “Y” wound stators are permitted. No delta wound or slotless stators are allowed. Only circular (round) pure copper magnet wire permitted. The three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands of 20 AWG perslot. The inductance for each slot of the stator shall be 102.00 Micro Henries minimum and 108.00 Micro Henries maximum, measured with the rotor removed from the motor.

8.X.Y.3.4 Rotor: External shaft diameter must be 0.125 inches (3.175mm). Only one piece, two pole Neodymium sintered or bonded, or Ferrite (Ceramic) magnetic rotors are permitted. The magnet length shall be 25.0 +/-1.00mmmm not including any non-magnetic balancing material. The magnet outside diameter shall be 12.30 +/- 0.10mm. The shaft outside diameter, where the
magnet is mounted, shall be 7.25 +/- 0.150mm. This dimension must be
measurable without destroying the rotor.
8.X.Y.4 All motors must have the original manufacturer’s logo or name molded into the end bell and stamped onto the can. A marking or unique feature that is difficult to remove must be integrated into the motor to signify that the motor is for stock competition.

8.X.Y.5 A minimum of two thousand (2000) brushless motors must be available at the time of
approval. A minimum of three hundred (300) brushless motors must have been sold to at
least three (3) distributors or hobby shops or OEM’s at the time of submittal. The
manufacturer has to provide an address of a hobby shop or the like, that any driver who
wishes to obtain these motors at the time of the approval can do so. No hybrid (mixing of
parts from approved or unapproved brushless motors) allowed.

8.X.Y.6 The maximum retail price of a stock brushless motor shall be $129.00.

Criminy! Those are the rules for a HOBBY? Sounds more like legalese to me. I'm glad I don't participate in such a restricting event! I do understand the need to level the playing field somewhat, but that's just crazy!

Thanks Patrick, I was hoping you would see this discussion. Are my thoughts unreasonable? I would really like to have the option of using my CC sc's with a "stock" motor. I realize this is not your "problem" and that you and your company are quite busy, but I thought I'd throw it out there. If that ROAR standard could be modified it would be helpful. Thanks for listening, Don

In the works... Thanx!

Do I smell the MM pro with the "feature" port you spoke of a while back? And some sensored motors? Sounds like a big investment, but I am sure that CC would have the power advantage, along with better programability...

Alright!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And someone thought it was a PITA to check the esc programming, not to mention checking every dimension of the motors.

Those rule are for Stock motor arn't they ?

Rule are little less restrictive on mod

The Novak's and other ROAR motors are Wye or star wound, not delta, the latter is illegal. Personally i'd like to see the motor specs opened up, But i agree on stock and super stock, it'd be too confusing to make both a y and a d wound stock, and almost impossible to get exact KV on both

What about this motor?
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXVBW2&P=7
Anyone tried it with a Mamba Max or SideWinder? The Tower specs say "Works with and has connections for either sensor or sensorless speed controls."

ROAR is in Bob Novak's pocket.
 

The rules are absurd. the guy making the motor and escs is the person writing the spec for ROAR. That is ridiculous and we need to complain at our local tracks to get roar to change. This would be like NASCAR rules committee for engines to be from Ford and only allow Ford engines to race.
I dont want to use Novak products. they are outdated and their are many other options out there but Bob threatens ROAR if he doesnt get his way.

That spec is a joke and needs to be changed.

What is the point of restricting the type of connector used for sensor input???????????? :slap:

Both wind types have their uses, but to restrict users and manufacturers to one type is ignorant. If there was a " legal" Delta "stock" motor available my CC sc's would operate it just fine! Don

Maybe you could share your source of information with us: That Bob Novak writes the rules and "threatens" ROAR if he "doesn't get his way."

This is absurd disinformation, and I'm really tired of hearing it spread around R/C forums. If you have evidence to substantiate your assertion, let's hear it.

Didn't GM recently launched a delta wound slotted motor ?

Despite not getting into the racing scene, I have to agree with NovakTwo. I'd like to see some hard evidence myself. If it's true, so be it. But if it's not, let's clarify. It's easy for enough people to repeat rumors that they become "facts".

I think tekin president can confirm that they did try to get approval on there sensorless motor and they failed to pass it...

Has anyone heard? Is there a CC software update for the Sidewinder or MM that will allow either one to operate a 17.5 brushless? Or is CC coming out with a ROAR legal "stock" motor? If I'm pushing a bit, I apologize. OK, now that your motors are going to be legal for MOD-how about a 2200 KV for stock?

bump

The MM and sidewinder can already operate a 17.5 fine, it the just won't be as smooth from a standstill as sensored.