Novak HV-Motor's???
 

Ive been wondering this for awhile and I need to get it cleared up. Why is the novak hv-maxx motor's so dissapointingly bad if they are 4-pole motors that can be ran on sensorless esc's if programmed right? I mean you'd would think that it would preform great setup on a sensorless 5s-6s route. Thats if they made a low enough kv version...:whip:

Well, the motor is just too small. t=They have a small diamter rotor, thing 380 bl motor size. And the effecientcy may be high, but they are not very torquey and the smaller size causes issues with heavy vehicles and tall gearing. Plus they cost too much, and i am not sure that they are 4 pole, seem like a 2 pole motor to me...

Novak HV motors are indeed a 2 pole motor

Also, don't they use a slotted stator?

I'm not sure what your point is here...

The Castle NEU motors have slotted stators. This is stated in the description on the RCM product page:
"These motors are 4 pole, slotted, brushless motors wound with 1 turn in a Y configuration."

All things equal, slotted motors are more powerful than slotless motors. The makers of slotless motors make up for this by using high-energy, rare-earth magnets but this comes with a higher price tag.

If a high slot to pole design is used you should end up with a more efficient slotted motor.

I am happy with my HV7.5 and race with it in my mbx5. The HV motors do not have the torque of a NEU 1515 but, IMO, they work quite well for 1/8th scale buggy racing.

I purchased the HVPro 7.5 system for ~$215 shipped and I think that's a fair price for what you get.

Anyway,
In many (if not most) cases, the difference between 1st and 2nd place is the driver :lol:

Well I had a novak velocity motor and it was a 4-pole so I assumed all were.:lol:

Says on novaks site- Magnet: One-piece, multi-pole neodymium. It would have to be a 4-pole then wouldnt it?

multi just means more than one! It has been discussed on here before and Novak2 set the record straight and got the correct answer and told us that it was a 2 pole motor

No point really, just adding to the description. I well know the advantages of slotted in certain applications, and Patrick has gone into pretty detail on each type.

Hmmm... I guess that answers my question.

I wonder how can a magnet be made 1-pole. Due to physics nature, magnetic poles always apear in pairs, for instance, our planet earth.

What a Novak statement. :surprised:

FWIW, if you ever need to figure out how many poles an inrunner motor has; Remove the rotor from the can, roll it on a flat metal surface, note how many times it "sticks" in one revolution.

Or just make it a helluva lot harder for yourself and open it up.:rofl:

Using this method it is obvious that it's a 2 pole motor, I just tried it with my HV rotor with a snapped shaft

That makes total sense...

What makes total sense? That it's a 2 pole design or that I have one with a snapped shaft:diablo: The Novak HV4.5 was what introduced me to BL, got it a few months before they released the 5mm shaft rotors. I'm actually pretty sure I was one of the first to get the new shaft after pre-ordering and waiting forever after I snapped this one. Honestly the HV isn't a horrible setup. I'm planning on racing this summer and if the track goes with ROAR rules and only allows 4s and approved motors I will most likely get another, prolly the 5.5, but I hope that's not the case as I like my MMM/Neu 5s much better! Sorry for the ramble:whistle:

Haha ya, feigao is what introduced me to the brushless scene way back in 2004. I thought they were the sh** until I discovered how nice my hacker c50 maxx was. I have never tried lehner or neu yet. I plan to try lehner very shortly.

Actually you can know the pole number WITHOUT OPENNING the can.:yipi:
Just rotate the motor shaft, feel how many "detent" in a whole 360 degree round turn.

2-pole rotor will feel 6 detents, that is, 2 polesX 3 stator phases= 6 sticky positions.

4-pole motor will feel 12 detents, same rule, no matter it has a slotted stator or not.

why debate it ? its a pathetic tiny rotor that should be in a traxxas VXL motor but they claim "HV" its just a marketing scheme to get you to buy a $270 inferior product.......................................... NOVAK BOOO

Actually, it will not work with slotless motors. At least none I've seen... :whistle:

Without debate, people still will not be correctly informed on which to buy. Statements like that look like complete trash without any facts to back it up.

Fact- novak hvmaxx is not hv, its only 4s.
Fact- its old as the emaxx 3906 almost- past its prime and should have been replaced years ago; castle and tekin are way ahead of the game, as are losi and hobby city etc.
Fact- $270 is too much for what you get compared to the MMM systems (power and versatility).
Fact - novak rely on the myth that sensored is best, when it clearly isnt anymore. If only Aveox were still into R/C then they would kick both novak and castles ass's (think sensored neus....).
Fact- I've had both, and I prefer the MMM to the Novak- you just cant run a hvmaxx in anything heavier than a stock emaxx or erevo and expect decent topspeed or power. Wheelies are good upto about half throttle (if that), but I could only manage 20-25mph with sensible gearing to keep the temps in check. Its about time novak pulled their finger out and released a true 1/8 scale system.

I guess it could be considered HV compared to the rest of their systems. :neutral:

Its all relative I guess- but comapred to the stock evx on the emaxx at the time, it was the same voltage, yet they didnt call it the HVevx.. Like thingy said, its all marketing- catchy name = sales. When they do eventually replace the hvmaxx (I believe early this year has been mentioned by novaktwo), if they make it a 6s lipo system that would be good and just about worthy of the HV title. Depends whats concidered HV in DC electronics?...

The above statements were 90% opinion. Not saying the opinion is right or wrong, just that it was not all facts.

Umm, nope, all facts really :mdr:

You could argue about the HV or not HV thing (16.8v isnt very high voltage though compared to one of Lutach's 10s escs for example).

The hvmax IS almost as old as the emaxx itself, and other firms are ahead of the game with their sensorless designs that offer much more power (say ~1500watts compared to the hvmaxx's ~500-800 or so). Cant argue about the versatility issue- you can run any motor you like on the MMM etc.

$270 is alot of money for an old system thats just been given a few programming tweaks and a 5mm rotor, where as $300 nets you the latest and greatest (allbeit with teething issues that are now fixed).

Novak DO rely on the myth that sensored is best, theres enough speil about it on their website and the all the marketing we've all seen over the years.

And I have owned both systems as such, and the MMM is so much better for all the stated reasons- you cant put the hvmaxx in anything heavier than a stock erevo or emaxx and expect it to perform the same, it just cant produce the power required or pull the gearing that we'd like/need to do the vehicle justice.

If anyone would like to prove me wrong or rubbish my informed opinions Im more than happy to entertain a debate, which is what this thread is all about- why is the hvmaxx so weak compared to other systems (or ' why are other systems so much better than the hvmaxx? ' )...

No denying that the CC combo is a much better system and has pushed the Novak to the obsolete stage,butI have to say this,on 4s the 4.5 is not a weak system.Even compared to the CC combo.The 6.5, I can imagine, is much weaker.But you cannot generally compare the 2 motors,like what gets done.I'm sure if you had a 4.5 you would see a substantial difference in power.Mine always did great even pushing 47 in my Erevo,on my bashing gears 14/68.I only managed to thermal it once,that was because I pushed it as hard as I could till it did.I don't think anyone could really be unhappy with 47 on 4s,with a stable system,even with the MMM combo.But with whats available today the price would have to drop below 200 for the system for me to consider it a value. BTW my 4.5 is now perfectly happy at home in my Rustler,where it may or may not be better suited .

I've said it before and I'll say it again! The weak link with the HV-MAXX is the esc! Even with their fan on it, it can't handle the current draw, it heats up very fast and can't pull any kind of gearing even on a light truck. I ran one on my G2R with a hummer SUT body. The heatsink and fan completely stuck through the bed of the truck, no lack of airflow there, and it still fried. When it worked I honestly liked the power, it was quicker and just as fast as a nitro, with a little more power than a trx 3.3 motor. If Novak could build an esc that can handle their motors it wouldn't be so bad! If you want controlable power for racing the HV motors hooked to a MMM might not be bad. Although Neu is coming out with a 1400 series motor that would be better or get a Medusa.

It's just too bad their HV ESC can't handle 5s (or can they?). Then you could use the 6.5 motor and just gear down. The power would be about the same as the 4.5 on 4s, but run cooler because of the reduced current.

I think we are all just spoiled with our ~1,000w+ setups. The HV would probably suit the majority of us if used in a light buggy or in something like the CRT.5. :smile: But, we are used to having trie shredding torque AND high top speed. The HV can do either, bot not both without excessive heat geared high for top end, or lack of top speed geared low for torque.

Plus, remember that when the HV was the top dog, NiMH was much more common. Then, the cells were the limiting factor helping the ESC. Now, lipos have so much more current capability without dropping voltage, that the ESC is the weak link because it can't handle the sustained power that a good voltage and high current can generate.

You know I usually stay out of these because there are people that flame the Novak product just because they don't like the name or have heard from someone else, that their uncles distant relative had a problem with one. To comment on how disappointing a system is you should have first hand experience running it first. If you are disappointed in the Novak then you did not read the products description, instruction, and posted addemdums to that product. You are not using it for what the products was made for. I still use the Novak HV in my e-maxx. I didn't pay the 270 dollar price tag, I have never needed a 5mm shaft any of the HV motors I have had. It is run on 4s and perfromce exaclty as the product is described to if not better then the adverstivement indicates. That is what I expect from it. Not 70mhp 6s capabilities that are not advertised it being capable of doing. I am far from disappionted in it. If I went and spent 500 on a setup that when I put it in my emaxx and I had to gear it down so low to get the same speed and maybe torque that I get from my 4.5. Yeah I would be disappoointed in that product. But more in myself for buying the wrong setup. I do not expect the same from the 4.5 as I do from my 1515 1y. That is just called a little common sense. If you are disappointed then do some research before your next purchase. It not always the product that is to blame. You should get the correct setup for a 15lbs emaxx. The Novak HV system was the only plug and play system for the longest time. It was the best available. In 1965 the Mustang was the most sold vehicle in america. Making it the best (debatable but bear with me) in 1965. Well it isn't anymore but there are still a lot of people that love to drive it today. They are far from disappointed in its performance. Would you expect the dash to light up in all digital and voice telling you door is ajar. Different product and different time. Know what you are buying before you buy it and you will not be disappointed in it or yourself for making the wrong purchase.


Just an FYI:
In electric power transmission engineering, high voltage is usually considered any voltage over approximately 35,000 volts. This is a classification based on the design of apparatus and insulation.

The International Electrotechnical Commission and its national counterparts (IET, IEEE, VDE, etc.) define high voltage circuits as those with more than 1000 V for alternating current and at least 1500 V for direct current, and distinguish it from low voltage (50–1000 V AC or 120–1500 V DC) and extra low voltage (<50 V AC or <120 V DC) circuits. This is in the context of building wiring and the safety of electrical apparatus.

In the United States 2005 National Electrical Code (NEC), high voltage is any voltage over 600 V (article 490.2). British Standard BS 7671:2008 defines high voltage as any voltage difference between conductors that is higher than 1000 V AC or 1500 V ripple-free DC, or any voltage difference between a conductor and Earth that is higher than 600 V AC or 900 V ripple-free DC.

Not HV then.... :lol:

I agree though- the nothvmaxx was designed to fulfill a specifc purpose at the time it was released, that is a mild upgrade to the titans in the emaxx 3906. I wouldnt dream of complaining that it wasnt powerful enough for a 15lb truck, it clearly wasnt intended for that purpose. My gripe is that its an old system that needs replacing in order to compete with more modern setups, where as novak just did some minor tweaks and called it job done/ a 1/8 system, which it is probably better for since most buggies and truggies weigh less than MTs. Wouldnt like to put it side by side with a BL Edition Erevo or Savage Flux though...

I too hate the FORD -vs - Chevy -vs - Dodge arguements, because most argued with only opinions and very little facts. So Neil, here's my rebuttal!!

Fact- novak hvmaxx is not hv, its only 4s.
* What exactly is HV? Is the MMM HV? Not when compared to the 10S systems that are available. Thus this statement is opinion. I happen to share your opinion. :intello:.

Fact- its old as the emaxx 3906 almost (true)- past its prime and should have been replaced years ago (opinion); castle (prolly true)and tekin are way ahead of the game, as are losi and hobby city etc. (Debatable)

Fact- $270 is too much for what you get compared to the MMM systems (power and versatility). Again, this is an opinion. It may be true for the majority of us, but not necessarily for someone that lets say runs ROAR with anything EMAXX or lighter.

Fact - novak rely on the myth that sensored is best, when it clearly isnt anymore. If only Aveox were still into R/C then they would kick both novak and castles ass's (think sensored neus....).
Again, opinion. The "not anymore" part gives it a little bit more fact. They used to be the only plug and play system, with fewer than "average" glitching issues, now they are not. That doesn't mean one or the other is better. BTW, Aveox is still in business, but you'll likely have to pay a little more for the motors/controllers now as they are primarily a supplier for Commercial Aircraft brushless motors.

Fact- I've had both, and I prefer the MMM to the Novak- you just cant run a hvmaxx in anything heavier than a stock emaxx or erevo and expect decent topspeed or power. Well, thats what the majority of people here run! Wheelies are good upto about half throttle (if that), but I could only manage 20-25mph with sensible gearing to keep the temps in check. (I dont buy this (and I know you've said it before)- I've had three HV systems in Maxx's and Revo's and NEVER had an issue getting to 40 without overheating. And FWIW, I'd prefer to not have wheelies over 1/2 throttle.)
Its about time novak pulled their finger out and released a true 1/8 scale system. (100% TRUE! I also wish that there were 10 more suppliers of 1/8th systems, and I wish there were more RTR brushless rigs to purchase)

I would not argue that the Castle system is the best bang for the buck for most of us. But at 150-175 used, the HV system is a great buy for entry level users, and for some of us who dont want or need 60+ in every RC. The Castle system is still not 100% proven reliable (I think most of us still have our fingers crossed with our V3's!), now that the combos are out, and when mainstream starts buying the Revo brushless, we'll know a lot more in a couple months. I haven't heard anything about the Tekin, Hobbycity, or any others to indicate that they have released a proven reliable plug and play system - in fact what I've heard leads me to believe they all some work to do.

Neil, you hold a position of some "authority" here, and you need to understand that some readers take what you type at face value. The intent of what I said about opinion -vs- fact was not to say that your opinions are wrong. In fact, my opinions often agree with yours, but I know others may have a different perspective.

My personal choice is the Castle/Neu systems for most of my applications now. However, I thoroughly enjoyed the power and use of the Novaks while I was getting my feet wet in Brushless.

I agree with Brian and the others in that Novaks ESC appears to be the weak link in the system. They had an opportunity to work on that with their "Pro" release, but I think they must have viewed going to 6S as too risky at that time, especially given their "relationship" with ROAR (maybe not without warrant - wonder how much V1 and V2 hit Castle's bottom line??).

Man, I like my 6.5HV. I must be the only one...

I RACE on 4s and it's perfect.

Have it geared for around 37mph. I don't need anything faster at the track. I have had it in my revo since the beginning of the summer and have never had it thermal. I get great run-times and cool temps. My truck weighs 9lbs with lipos. I have been racing nitro tuggies and nitro revos and have never had a problem being competitive.

Sorry, I had to weigh in as a positive user with the HV system.

You are not the only one ;)

I run my HV7.5 with my MMM esc and it runs great on 4s and 5s for mid 30s to low 40s. I do admit that inconsistant startups can be a bit irritating. I've never had a sensorless combo that stands up to sensored in that respect. Even if sensorless starts up as well as sensored 90% of the time, the other 10% could still be 3-4 times during a run.

Like many would say, a neu motor is probably better many circumstances. Novak motors are a little too rpm based for my liking and are touchy on the gearing. But when power is not the demand there are certain features, such as its light weight, predictable power, solder tabs, and and size that may be better than neu in certain applications.

I too hate the FORD -vs - Chevy -vs - Dodge arguements, because most argued with only opinions and very little facts. So Neil, here's my rebuttal!! Bring it on!

Fact- novak hvmaxx is not hv, its only 4s.
* What exactly is HV? Is the MMM HV? Not when compared to the 10S systems that are available. Thus this statement is opinion. I happen to share your opinion. :intello:.Good good.

Fact- its old as the emaxx 3906 almost (true)- past its prime and should have been replaced years ago (opinion); castle (prolly true)Definately true :mdr: Novaktwo has stated that they just have too many projects on the boil at once- a 6s system is due soon hopefully.and tekin are way ahead of the game, as are losi and hobby city etc. (Debatable)Well, the Tekin is untested yet, but I dont doubt it will perform well, The Losi hasnt had too many positive reviews, but then again it appears to just be a re-badged chinese item (speculation). HobbyCity esc is being tested by a few members as we speak, I look forward to more results.
Fact- $270 is too much for what you get compared to the MMM systems (power and versatility). Again, this is an opinion. It may be true for the majority of us, but not necessarily for someone that lets say runs ROAR with anything EMAXX or lighter. Roar sucks though :whistle: True, if a newbie wants an entry level system the hvmaxx is good, but the MMM cant be setup as an entry level system with some simple programming tweaks and a suitable motor (9L on 4s would be very close to a hvmaxx), but its the versatility thing again- you cant go higher voltage and lower kv etc etc with the hvmaxx, if you want more power or speed after a little while you dont have too much choice apart from a hotter hvmaxx motor (if you arent running the 4.5 already), or selling the whole system to get something bigger and more powerful.

Fact - novak rely on the myth that sensored is best, when it clearly isnt anymore. If only Aveox were still into R/C then they would kick both novak and castles ass's (think sensored neus....).
Again, opinion. The "not anymore" part gives it a little bit more fact. They used to be the only plug and play system, with fewer than "average" glitching issues, now they are not. That doesn't mean one or the other is better. Patrick from Castle would say other wise- there should be a write up in the Castle section where he talks about why sensorless is better than sensored in most cases, worth having a look for. BTW, Aveox is still in business, but you'll likely have to pay a little more for the motors/controllers now as they are primarily a supplier for Commercial Aircraft brushless motors. I know- their website is useless now, there is zero info on there about anything r/c related, you have to contact them if you want to ask about anything- ebay is your best bet for Aveox motors, Lutach has a few and loves them, but their r/c systems have been extinct for a long long time saddly.
Fact- I've had both, and I prefer the MMM to the Novak- you just cant run a hvmaxx in anything heavier than a stock emaxx or erevo and expect decent topspeed or power. Well, thats what the majority of people here run! Wheelies are good upto about half throttle (if that), but I could only manage 20-25mph with sensible gearing to keep the temps in check. (I dont buy this (and I know you've said it before)- I've had three HV systems in Maxx's and Revo's and NEVER had an issue getting to 40 without overheating. And FWIW, I'd prefer to not have wheelies over 1/2 throttle.)

Wheelies past half throttle can be annoying, unless you have a 6" wheelie bar like me :mdr: Trust me though, I have plenty of videos of my old TXT-1 and the Gmaxx in its early days running the hvmaxx hv4400 motor and the 6.5 motor; according to BrianG's calculator, I really was only doing about 25mph at best, based on the gear ratios and tire diameters etc. If I geared taller (~stock gearing for the emaxx 3906), the esc and motor got rather hot, and the current draw killed an expensive nimh pack during testing- speed decreased however since the motor couldnt pull the gearing, nor could it really accelerate properly as the batteries cried for mercy, the video is just sad to watch.

Its about time novak pulled their finger out and released a true 1/8 scale system. (100% TRUE! I also wish that there were 10 more suppliers of 1/8th systems, and I wish there were more RTR brushless rigs to purchase)Ditto- the future is bright for BL.