KM Baja VS HPI 5B
 

What are your thoughts on the clone vs 5b debate? I have my personal opinions (which has been formed off opinions of others, and videos :whistle:)

Lets here yours.

Personally, I think that if you know what you're doing, and can fix a couple minor errors, your good to go. Simply boiling the A-arms, tightening screws, and making sure everything is good to go.

I say this because I either want to get a used 5b for around $550-$600, or a clone on E-bay for $650 shipped with a Pipe and ported to a 29cc.

Videos haven't really proven anything to me. They look the exact same, and when it comes down to it, the KM looks like a good buggy. All of the HPI parts say "Made in ____ " anyways. I doubt that foreign places have nothing to do with the building of the 5B.

I was wondering the same thing. They look exactly the same, and all parts are interchangeable.

I can't say about the clone but my good friend has the 5b SS and he loves it. Other fellas have tried to upgrade there machines but it does'nt go like the SS.

Go check out the 5B and large scale forums and see what they say. Odds are there will be much more feedback there than here.

http://www.hpibajaforum.com/

http://www.largescaleforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6

I also predict alot of biased opinions...:no:

since parts are interchangeable I would buy the cheaper one and just upgrade to 5b parts IF anything breaks.

If you haven't run gas before just remember to change the clutch every 3-4 runs (IIRC). My mate buys brake pads (real car) and cuts peices off and re-shoes the clutch. If you upgrade and get a 30cc big bore kit on a decent motor, you'll need to change the clutch before one full tank of gas.:yes:

The other thing is expence (sp?) I beleive large scale buy parts less but are more expensive. If it works out the roughly the same i don't know:neutral:

from what i hear the clone is just as good.

As for the "ethical support HPI" debate....the way i see it, im not going to pay a grand for the original, but if i guy the clone and purchase the hpi original parts...im helping out. :yes:

Yeah, people who want a hpi baja will buy it, the clones will sell to people who do not have the money to buy the hpi version.

As far as supporting HPI goes, you can take that to an extreme and say that hobbyists should pick just one mfg and only buy cars from that one mfg. But that would be dumb...

And it is not like HPI has started the 5th scale class, or has a ton invested in the baja design. It is not that revolutionary.

I bought a used baja, so who am I supporting?

I have one and looking back I may have been better off getting a SS.
I got mine with a pipe to the door for $550.00 it is a King Motor Baja 5b clone with 23 cc I bought it back in Nov of 2008.

I had to replace both upper and lower ft “A” arms with RPM (I broke both lower arms the first day out when I hit a small tree I don’t think the HPI arms would of broke with the same collision, but who knows) I also replaced both ft hubs with HPI ones (the bearing were sloppy in the KM hubs).

I also had to replace the clutch after 2 tanks (I used HPI clutch with 8k spring)

I had to replace all 4 wheels (hex striped out, HPI wheels have a metal ring around the hex)

I also had to re-bild all 4 shocks after I bent the Rt Ft shock shaft (they had no oil from the factory and the piston hole is way to small & needs to be drilled out)

I then had to replace the rear upper trans plate (the KM plate is aluminum but is very thin and cracked)

I also had to upgrade the raido system (RX, TX, throttle and brake servo, and steering servo I also upgraded the receiver battery) some of this is a wash because (I think) the SS does not included any electronics.

I then did some upgrades like air filter, fail safe, pull starter outerwear, ect (these would be need with a HPI as well)

Then about a mouth ago I had a lean seize (damaged piston and cylinder)
The KM motor is a clone of the fuelie 23 I had the motor tuned on the rich side ran good gas with good 2 stroke oil and cleaned the air filter after every run so I don’t think a true fuelie would have seized on me.

I have yet to run a full gallon of fuel thru it yet because of all the problems I have had.

I have not taken the time to add up all I have spend because I don’t want to know.

I must say there is nothing like running a 1/5 they have a lot of power, long run time and are BIG, it like driving a RC ATV.

I think I will order a big bore kit and try my luck again.

Single Mothers..



And I dont see the point of this- they both probably come out of the same factory in china.. Either way your supporting that factory...

Yeah, every kid needs a daddy... Just not me.

I stopped supporting single mothers when I found alcohol could get me in much cheaper.

As far as snowman's info goes, sounds like the KM baja is alot like an emaxx after you put the 1st al part on it, everything breaks after that.

Looking at the hpi baja I have I am really not that impressed. Sure it is big and heavy, but I am not so sure it needs to be that heavy. The chassis could be alot lighter, and designed as a 1 piece to reduce the number of fasteners and material overlaps. I guess the size of the 2 stroke motor dictated the design, but if you were going electric from the start the chassis could be made much simpler and lighter.

I am still designing the dual motor mount for my baja... Got sidetracked with the savage projects...

Easy on the single mothers now... Everyone's mother was single at one point in their lives....

And will you finish one damn project at a time... Geezz...:na:

I was thinking the clone was just as good, until I read Snowmans post..... I have checked out the large scale forums, and the HPI Baja forum. One forum did not allow clone discussion, the other one I got a bunch of simple replies "It's a clone" that did me no good.

Maybe 1/5 is out of the question, but who knows... With that list of parts, it's not looking so good.

I posted my experience with the clone, however I have heard good things about them and the new ones look a little better them mine.

This has a lot of GOOD info:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7249314/tm.htm

PS I did order the big bore kit for mine today, I will see how it turns out.

From what I understand the KM Baja is just one clone and not all clones are the KM. Either way HPI did nothing revolutionary with the design and as such they obviously don't have a patent on the product or else it wouldn't sell in the US. I also saw HPI Europe's response which I find silly because the clones obviously sell in Europe as well. My guess is that the clone is really the original and HPI contracted the chinese plant to make it and brand it for them. I am sure there were probably some changes and maybe a little stricter QC but that's about all I will give it.

Yes there are a number of clones which leads me to agree with TexasSP that there is one blue print for a car made by several companies. Just the running gear needs to be upgraded- electronics, tuned pipe, and possible weak pionts...etc.....

"nothing revolutionary with the design" so that means its ok for any company to market and produce a product they really had no involvement in?

Let’s play out two different scenarios.

1. Hpi spent large amounts of money doing R&D on a 1/5 scale buggy that uses quality components that is durable and reliable, and sells like mad thru out the world, and then a Chinese company sees how well they are selling and decides to copy the HPI design but the only change is they use lower quality components to keep cost down and profits high.

OR

2. An unknown Chinese company (still unknown to this date) develops a 1/5 scale buggy that uses low quality components and brakes often. HPI takes notice of this very low selling, bad quality item and decides to market it with higher quality stuff.

Come on you guys, HPI designed the BAJA and they got ripped off by other companies. This happens every day in overseas companies that have no respect for copyright laws or patents.

Yes I have first hand knowledge of this, my company contacts Chinese companies to build stamping dies. The cost difference is amazing, but the quality of work is not so good. Many times the overseas companies will cut corners and not use the quality components the designs call fore, opting instead to use their own homemade items. Sometimes this is ok, other times it puts press operators lives in danger as some components have serious safety measures built into them. We as a company have to have a representative in the “outsourced” shops at all time to ensure that no “funny” business is going on.

The fact that people keep buying the counterfeit products just reinforces the Chinese companies that it is ok to conduct business in this manor.

Do you think Mike (the RCM owner, the guy we all support) would be happy to have Chinese companies copying his design’s and selling them of 10-15% the price of what he does? Don’t think it can happen? Let me tell you, with about 2 phone calls I could open a “internet shop” and sell all of his quality products that he spent time and money developing at 10-15% of his selling price. Mike would have to go out of business, because people would start saying, “man this motor mount kit from “stealers” is just as good as “RCM” but way cheaper.” Then people would justify it with I don’t have that much money to spend. Just save an extra week or two and buy the real deal, or even buy a used product.

As a side note, my company doesn’t like going overseas to have our dies built. The number one reason we went overseas is because the big automotive companies like Ford, Tower, Midway, Meridian, Defiance, just to name a few, said that if we didn’t have a Chinese plan they wouldn’t let us even quote jobs, even if we could build them here in the States for the same or close to the same price. The big players are looking at bottom dollar period and do not care how it will affect them in the long run, which I think is part of this whole global money problem we are facing right now. Of course it’s not just the car companies fault, I’m sure this same thing is happening in all lines of manufacturing.

The key thing you miss is that if HPI had a patent granted this wouldn't be an issue. Obviously they have no patent on the design or patent pending or else it would not be available for sale in the US.

Mike at RCM has patents or patents pending on designs that are of such a nature that they or innvocative, different, etc. Case in point is the Slipperential.

These companies have not legally wronged HPI in anyway. If they had be sure lawsuit would have issued and cease and desist orders issued.

If HPI went the route of picking a product another company made then having them improve it and put their name on it, that is nothing special. The should have had their lawyers sign exclusivety contracts for it.

Your argument holds no water. It doesn't take a chinese company to copy products which don't hold a patent. It has been done in the US for years. If someone in the US wanted to copy Mikes products that are not patented and/or copy righted in anyway, there is nothing to stop them. Mike obviously understands this as he has applied for the proper patents for items which he finds or innovative and different as such to necisitate a patent. Obviously some US companies have jumped on to what Mike is doing and now offer their own conversion kits which are very similar to what Mike sells.

So it would be okay for HPI to:

A) Take their design without paying for it, make some quality improvements, then rebadge and sell it under their name for twice the price or

B) Pay that company to use their design, improve the quality, market and sell it as an HPI product, not have any exclusivity agreement on the product but somehow expect they can't sell that product to someone else?

As for as I can tell, the only thing HPI has is a copyright to the name Baja 5B.

Another case in point is that Toyota did the full R&D and manufacturing of the Matrix. GM bought rights to the design, cheapened it in many areas to fit their needs, and pays Toyota to manufacture it for them. GM then rebadges the vehicle as a Pontiac Vibe and sells it in the same markets as the Matrix. Does Toyota somehow now not have any right to sell the Matrix anymore?

The Chinese are not all a bunch of evil people sitting in room figuring out ways to hurt the US and others. Most of them are struggling and hard workers that live in shacks most Americans wouldn't put their dogs in. They are a very intelligent and innovative group and they are struggling to make their lives better, just like most people in the US. Even degreed engineers in China make less than most people working at McDonald's. My former company has a plant in China, and I have seen the payroll.

So many Americans want to sit on the sidelines and point fingers at the Chinese and pretend they themselves had nothing to do with this. It's a global economy and the one constant we have is change. You can either roll with it and adapt or get passed by. Nothing any president, congressman, or anyone else does will change this.

The chinese dont care about patents, the US patents mean nothing in China, the US goverment has no power in China at all in this area, the patents do keep American companies from stealing designs that is true. So what are you going to say when Integy starts selling the Slipperential? Do you think Mike will go after them?

How do we know that HPI doesn't have a patent on the BAJA? Granted it is a large scale buggy so maybe there is no patent on it, but for another company to reproduce the baja in such detail that HPI parts fit on it with no mods, doesn't seem to be to be very good business pratice to me.

I will support HPI and not the copy cat companies, HPI took the risk to invest money into the program, provide good customer support and therefore have earned the right to my business.

Yes I do expect mike to go after integy if they copy it...

Mike didn't spend all that money not to!

If HPI had a US or other Patent on the buggy it would not be sold in the US period! We are not talking about buggies being sold in China. Inside China they don't have to recognize patents, however if they export something to the US which holds a US or other recognized patent it cannot be sold within the US.

These things go much deeper than how you may "feel" about it. Like it or not it is what it is.

Mike has a patent pending on the slipperential (powerful but not the same as having the patent). It means he has filed the proper documentation and the patent is under review by the US Patent Office and will at some point in the near future be granted a full patent. If Integy tried copying the slipperential and selling it in the US Mike would have legal recourse. He would have his attorneys first file a "Cease and Desist Order" to integy and the case would proceed from there. Mike would easily win any lawsuit that could insue plus damages.

I would also be willing to bet that part of the reason it took so long for the slipperential release if because of Mike going through the necessary steps to file the patent.

http://www.rc-monster.com/proddetail...rential&cat=41 (see patent pending notation)

Also see this link directly from the US patent office for further information:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac...eneral/faq.htm

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac...ral/index.html

If HPI had such in the US for the baja you can be certain this would have already happened and no one would be purchasing the "clones" in the US or EU.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-29cc-1-5-Sca...3A1%7C294%3A50 - That is the one i want.

Have we all seen the new updated KM? They updated some parts on it...

I don't know the specific laws on US but I've heard in this country that patents only need to be changed buy 10% to classify. IF China even used such standards, it wouldn't take much to reproduce just about anything.:bad::grrrrrr:

Mike got a design patent on the Slipperential, though. He has a lot more protection than a typical patent can provide.

I couldn't find the patents for them but HPI has patents on the diff, shocks and the air cleaner. Yes the air cleaner.

They must file under something other then HPI Racing and Hobby Products International.

Off topic but it came up in my search Traxxas Revo

[QUOTE=Always Dreamin;287091] I think that if you know what you're doing, and can fix a couple minor errors, your good to go. Simply boiling the A-arms, tightening screws, and making sure everything is good to go.


AD, I just bought a new KM 23cc. Please elaborate on the "boiling the A Arms"

Any other suggestions? I don't know squat about R/C cars........The Baja is my first.

boiling the arms, just makes them less brittle. BTW, if you havn't read the post on the rcuniverse forum, check it out. Its about 75 pages dedicated just to these cars. The clones are a pretty touchy subject on the actual 5b forums, but the rcuniverse one can be very helpful.

Thanks! How long to "cook" those arms?

I have been on R/C Universe, and have waded through a lot of posts, but I keep running into a zillion posts on the HPI Baja VS KM clone debate and the moral, legal, implications etc, etc. You don't happen to have a link or two handy that will direct me to the stuff that is more of interest to me such as mods, improvements and so on. The moral dilemma of buying a clone is pretty much over for me since I've already bought the KM............LOL

HELP! Stripped servo gears!
 

HELP! Please! The KM Baja arrived yesterday. It was working great and I was using it for maybe 10 minutes and GENTLY hit my deck with the front tire. Stripped the gear on the steering servo. Futaba S 3306 servo I just bought locally does not seem to fit since it has square sides but the servo bracket on the buggy is rounded like the stock servo. Suggestions Please!

Thanks!

Maybe the HPI servo mount....? Just an idea. i really dont know cuz I dont have either car myself.

And the knock off drama begins.

You are right about the drama! LOL...........But everyone said the parts were an EXACT match for the HPI! Apparently not......LOL

So who knows a link to buy HPI parts.....not upgrades mind you, just parts.

Thanks again.

davesmotors.com, teamgonads.com, mmrlargescale.co.uk, etc. are all good dealers.

Would you rather buy an RC-Monster motor mount and support him or get a cheap knock-off to save a few bucks?

I have never owned a KM Baja so I have no idea if they're any good or not, but I am glad I supported HPI and bought the real deal rather than outsource to some company in China looking to make a quick buck by making a cheap imitation of someone else's idea. The HPI Baja is so far the TOUGHEST and MOST FUN RTR RC I have ever owned. I love brushless, but gassers are truly an experience. When you look at the big picture they aren't really all that expensive compared to a 1/8th (buying charger, lipos, ESC, motor, etc. costs a lot) and they are so much more fun and can run all day if you so desire.

Well, you are correct Spy, the gasser seems to be a GAS...pun intended. I really don't want to get into the whole moral issue of clones VS HPI because at this time it is a moot point. I opted for the clone so I could at least try out this hobby and see if it suits me. All help greatly appreciated.

Best regards

If your clone Baja didn't come with a tuned pipe, GET ONE! GBE pipes are the best, but they're expensive. I have a used rear dom that I'll let go cheap, needs the pipe bracket bent back into shape but it's a good pipe.

When the tires go out, Hostile makes the best. I have the big, blocky Nightmares on mine and it hooks up great in the loose stuff and not too bad on dirt.

If it has a plastic diff case, get an aluminum one or your diff will rip itself apart really fast. I upgraded from the plastic one to the HPI Baja SS diff ($26 IIRC) and it has held up great so far.

Clutch shoes last a long time, but if you get a better CB carrier and a CB that is machined more true they last even longer. If you can afford a Turtle Racing HD Clutch system your clutch shoes should last a very long time and will be sealed from sand and dirt.

Out of the box you'll probably want a TGN Redneck pre-filter and Outterwears filters on the air filter and over the pull start cover but they're really good right out of the box.

I run 88 octane in mine but that's at 5,500 ft. elevation, not sure how that will work at lower elevations. I run Motul full synthetic 2 stroke oil at 25:1 and have got 3.5-4 gallons on this piston ring and it's still going strong.

I would start an account with HPIBajaForum, great wealth of knowledge over there. DO NOT post pictures of your Baja until it is customized a bit though, the people over there can spot a fake a mile away and they all take offense to them.

HEY SPY Thanks for all the great information. I really need to upgrade the steering servo. I have bought a Futaba S 3306 in which I plan to put metal gears. Do you happen to know if this will this work in the Baja?

Best regards,

you will have to dremel the stock servo mount a little. my km baja stripped the stock servo after a small bump into a sidewalk. i got the Hitec ~$70 metal geared servo and LOOSENED THE SERVO SAVER and it runs like a champ. (except for the fact that my baja has collected dust for 6 months due to destroying my diff by doing wheelies using speed bumps, WOT, and the tuned pipe:angel:)

When ya get a chance, please explain this procedure...........Thanks!!

in the steering assembly, you will see a little spring. there is a little thing you can turn to loosen or tighten the spring. most of them are way too tight from the factory.

If that is a large scale servo, give it a shot. The Multiplex Digital Rhino is the most popular upgrade for the Baja from what I've seen. Good speed, torque, and great holding power.