A123 Motorcycle Battery?
 

I know using something like a123 cells for a car battery has been discussed, but I wonder if I could make a batt for my zx12r with a123 cells.

Currently I have a agm 14ah 12v battery in there. Not sure what the starting current demands of the engine are (1198cc 4 cyl with 12:1 compression) But I figure a 3-4p setup should work. Not quite 14ah with a 4p (6p would be closer) but I am not sure if I will need the extra capacity as the c rating is much higher on an a123 cell so starting should not be an issue. 4p gives 9.2ah, and at 25c discharge (pretty sure I remember a123 being able to handle that without dropping below 3v per cell) that is 230 amps.

My question is, how many cells in series should I use? 4s sounds about right, 3.3v nominal would be 13.2v and fully charged the voltage would be around 14.4v which is about what a std 12v car battery gets to.

Also wondering if the stator on the bike would cause charging issues? I know a123 cells are pretty good about being charged quickly and discharged low, but can they handle a possible overcharge? Not sure what the stator puts out, but I am sure it is around 12v. I can test this when I get the bike running tomorrow.

Also, a 16 cell a123 pack will be much smaller and lighter than the stock batt, and free up some space. Since the batt is housed in the center of the frame (weird monocoque design ) will I have heat issues with the a123s? Not much (if any) airflow around the batt in the stock location.

So any info would be greatly appreciated, I know we have some diehard a123 users here, so I guess you guys will tell me if I am barking up the wrong tree.

Linc, I have been tempted to make a A123 car starter battery as well.

Well, I charge my A123 packs with 3.8v/cell @ 10amps/2.3Ah... for a 4s pack, that's 15.2 volts, that's roughly what lead acid chargers peak at. You should take some measurements on the road of what the leadacid batt is idling at, if it's between 13.8volts and 14.4volts, you should be good, as that is the recommended charging specs for them. I'm sure they can handle being 'held' at 3.6v/cell for as long as you ride the bike, and anything lower, is better. A 4s4p pack should work just great. That's a 3000watt/4hp pack.

13.8volts is 3.45v/cell, which is the recommended float-charge voltage.

14.4volts is 3.6v/cell, that is the standard charge voltage.

So I think if you are in between that range for stator voltages, you should be golden. Even if 3.45v/cell doesn't charge it to 100% SOC, the pack should have more than enough energy and power to start the bike.

If you build the pack right, that should be the last batt you buy for your bike. no doubt.

Good info ZPB, just what I was looking for. I will get the bike running and check the idle and cruise voltages and see what they are. A 4s4p pack would be 1/3 or less of the size of the current battery... I should be able to score 16 cells up reasonably cheap as well.

4s4p will be the best bet. You won't need much. Here is the tek battery page that does the same thing with an internal BMS http://www.tekbattery.com/Batteries/PricesDoc.html

4s is the replacement for 12v lead acid. It will get slightly undercharged by a lead acid charger too, which makes it last longer.

More good info, thanks JRH. Now I get to search for 16 decent cheap a123 cells.

Ebay... IIRC the guy that sells the 12x a123s for $70 also sells 16x cells for $100 or so

Well to be honest, you COULD even do fine with a 4s3p starter pack... just thinkin because IIRC, a typical car takes between 250 - 300amps to start. So I can't imagine that a bike would be anymore than 150amps? Or are these bike starters of the high speed/high power type?

But, if the same place sells 16x cells for $100, then why not, go for it.

Thanks for posting that too! I am always looking for places that make packs from A123 cells... I like to keep the ideas, and compare them to how I would make mine. That is if and when I make an electric motorbike, and in the future, an ultra light super car.

Linc can I just ask why?

As you mentioned, and as would be my concern, will A123 take a 'dirty' charge directly from the rectifier? And why would you want a messy cluster of a battery.. the new AGM batteries are supposed to be the shiz and cost about the same as a gel cell.

Not to be the skeptic, I'm known for doing odd stuff like this, but what is the objective?

Curious:yes:

....so add some capacitors to the pack, clean the power up IF it were a problem. IMO, you don't need caps.

Redshift, I have 30 55Ah Yellow Tops (AGM spiral wound) waiting to be place in an electric truck conversion. An A123 pack 1/7 the weight has the same punch and power as the best lead acid batt.

A123 starter batts do actually make sense in the long term.

Fair enough zp, weight is waste in a 1:1 conversion (and I would love to do my own) but I'm pretty sure linc's 1200 already has a fairly decent power to weight ratio, just a wild guess:lol:

You that concerned about trying to keep up to a ZX14 James?

Yah, and remember, 1lb. on a car doesn't make a whole heck of alot of difference, but every lb. on a bike does almost 8 times as much as it would in a car.

And heck Linc, if it were ever -40C there, it would still start like a charm... :lol:

Yeah, I just wanted to free up some weight and space. The factory tool kit is in the trunck on the bike, and most of it could be put with the battery if i went a123. I picked up a new agm battery for the bike today. Need to get it running before I do anything else. Might even sell it.

Seems like a great usage for a123 cells. Hows that electric truck conversion coming along ZPB?

And what does ZPB mean?

Zero Point Bug

Well I won't speak for him but Zero Point Energy is probably what ZPB had in mind, free energy, metascience, etc......

"I just wanted to free up some weight and space. The factory tool kit is in the trunck on the bike"

Leave them home. Tools are for motorcycles with two names....dig.

It is shocking how dumb that reads....

Makes bit more sense.

Yeah, I know. Just nice to have some tools on the bike.

Yes, you pretty much said it... I got the Zeropoint 'bug'.

It is said, that in the volume of a cup of coffee, or any beverage, take your pick; there is enough energy to boil off all the water on planet earth. Some number to the 90th power or something Joules or energy. However some physicist say that it is virtually limitless... even if it's the first number I said, it would still seem "limitless"... :smile:

The big question is: Can it be tapped?

I have asked this many times, but I am usually staring at the dance floor at the club...

ooooohhhh LOL

Time to attempt the RCM most off topic post of all time. Linc, you have 8,888 posts. Just earlier today, BrianG had 11,111 posts. I just got 1500 even. And ben has 4100. :oops:

and I have 1972..... .......the year I was born..... ......... j/k

You might find this video informative.

When used in 1p configuration you can get around 100-120A @2-2.5V per cell (depending on cell temperature and discharge level) -> i have several Eagletree logs i recorded with 10s1p A123.

Othello, yah, they can discharge like there is no tomorrow. My 7s1p pack can deliver 2000watts in my Revo @ 140+amps.... 2300mah!!!!!!!

you as the pilot isn't enough?:yipi:

Hi,

we've been using A123 4s2p 2300 mAh for a Suzuki GSXR 600 in our Formula Student car for two years. On the test bench, I've measured 25 A cuntinuous for the starter motor and this was supplied by 4s1p. In the car, there's fuel and water pump, a fan and a shifter magnet which pulls 50 A.

I've found that 4s packs of LiFe packs are prefectly compatible with bike engine and their alternators. For your 1200 ccm bike, I'd try 4s3p or 4s4p.

Further, I've been using 4s1p in my 125 ccm bike for a year, but might switch to 2p.

"The big question is: Can it be tapped?"

Tesla, Reich and a handful of others knew the answer to that didn't they......

We may never know the magnitude of suppressed technologies, certainly could
be a much different world.

Good, real world experience, thanks for that info. I scored another agm batt and threw it in tonight. The bike is still missing at low er rpms, and a bit intermittent on mid to top end. Feels like just 1 cylinder, but the bike is a fuel injected bike, so I am at a bit of a loss to figure out what is up. I may drop the motor and pull the plugs (damn monocoque frame again, gets in the way of the head) but I had a buddy so that recently, so I doubt it is that. Maybe needs the fuel injectors cleaned? I may just drop it off at the bike shop and pay them, work is a bit busy and I have other projects to waste my time on!

If I do get the bike fixed, I have a feeling that some a123 cells will make their way in there. Or I may sell it and go back to a 900, really liked my 99 9r. Or I could do the smart thing and get something more like a std bike, the zzr1200 is nice, and the older zrx1100 bikes are fun to ride.

Re-visiting this thread...

Just sold the 12r... Yeah, it took a year. And then I happened upon a very nice condition Honda cbr1100xx blackbird... Paid 2k for it, 99 model with 27k miles. Nice nbike, just a tich slower than the 12r but way smoother (dual balance shafts) and it is a bit more comfortable. Will be even better with taller bars and some foot peg brackets to increase the leg room.

Seems like the battery is on its way out, and this bike is very lacking in useable trunk space. So I will be whipping up a nice 4s3p a123 pack for it. I do need to put a meter on it and see if the stator is still working. Seems to go dead overnight, so it may just be a weak battery or some sort of parasitic draw. I already have the cells, picked up 3 6s1p packs a while back and I guess this is the best use I can think for them!

I will post up some pics, will have to wait till the following week as I am leaving from AZ on thurs morning. Vacation time!!! Just a few days, but I will be seeing an old friend and will enjoy the time away from work.

I had to look on ebay to see what these batteries even looked like, I have heard of them but never saw one. Is there a difference between A123 and Life batteries? Also all the A123 packs i saw on ebay had balance taps, so if they need to be balance charged how would you do that while being charged by your stator/altenator?

Well, I have seen some very hard use setups involving a123 (a brand name, they are lithium iron, or LiFE) and they do not seem to be too bad about balancing.

Given my experience most batteries only go out of balance for 2 reasons.

1, they are not matched cells, or have very wide mfg tolerances, no QC...

2, over discharge, or pushing the cells hard when they are nearly fully discharge.

As this battery will likely never be fully discharged I should be fine. I do plan to put a balance tap on it, just so I can check and balance charge via a hobby charger if needed.

Sorry for the off topic, but where in Arizona? If you happen to be going somewhere in northern Arizona, check out The Nitro Pit track (bad name, great track) if you can, it's worth visiting if you have extra time, and if you bring a 1/8 electric along with you it would be alot of fun, the layouts there are usually really wide open and fast.

Going to tempe, anywhere close?

Ok, finally going to pull the trigger on this project. Need to pull the battery out of the bike and measure the available space.

Thinking that I will have enough room to do 2 rows of 6 cells, and they will be standing up, on end. This should be about the same width and length of the stock lead acid battery but about half the height.

Since it will be a 4s3p pack I will arrange the cells are 3p in a row, and likely use powerpole connectors to series wire the 3p together. Going to use 12 gauge wire to attach everything, as I have alot of it.

Hippie sent me some thin kydex awhile back (thanks sweetie!) and I may use that to make a 5 sided box. Not sure how I will connectot the new pack to the main wires from the bike, currently it has ring terminals that bolt to the lead posts on the lead acid battery. I may just make some mounts on the side of the kydex carrier to bolt the stock main wires to and terminate the new pack with ring terminals. Not much of a starting load, as I have started this bike with a 5000 25c 3s lipo with 12 gauge wires, deans plugs and some aligator clips (my portable motorcycle "jump box")

Will have pics up in the next few days...

Hippie sent me some thin kydex awhile back (thanks sweetie!).

If you need more just let me know.

Thanks Mike, still working thru the last "care package" you sent me!!!

I would suggest against the andersons. They do poorly in vibrations unless you use the 75a versions. I would suggest bolted eyelets, castle type bullets, or double deans plugs before power poles.

Good advice. I think I have a decent selection of 5mm or maybe larger gold bullets somewhere. Need to dig them out. Will do the bolted eyelts for the interface with the bike wiring, as I do not want to cut the factory stuff off. Thanks JRH!

No sweat! Just didn't want to see you dealing with the crap I went through with the power poles.

I do vaguely remember reading a post of yours mentioning the powerpoles. I have a bunch of them, maybe got them from you? Just trying to come up with some use for them, maybe wiring up some flashlights? HAHA, I will find a use for them.