Futaba R113IP receiver and MMM
 

Hi,

I had to find out the hard way that the well known and highly appricated Futaba R113IP receiver is not working with a MMM combo.... Or better, the other way around. I have informed CC about this several months ago and have received a couple of emails from them in which they confirmed the issue and also informed me that they would take action.....

Words have remained words up till now, no solution from CC.... anyone with a suitable solution?

Regards, winkje

What do you mean that it "isnt working" as in glitching? as in not working at all?

Hi,

Sorry... no glitches but simply impossible to calibrate the ESC.

I copied this text from the message I got from CC:

I wrote:

Hi,

After a long and frustrating evening I couldn't get my new Mamba Monster Max calibrated on my Futaba T3VCS and 40Mhz 113ip receiver... I extensively searched the web and found a posting about an issue with the Mamba Monster Max and the 113ip receiver. Couldn't believe it but to be save a changed to a 146ip receiver. It calibrated within a minute and works fine....

CC reply:

We have one of these coming in and will be doing testing with it. A gentleman had 12 of them, 10 did not work, 2 did. We're wondering if Futaba changed something without telling anyone that could be keeping it from working.

Any update on this?

I am having issues calibrating my brother in laws Futaba 3PM to the MMM. I am completely unfamiliar with how to adjust the settings on the Futaba - and I can't ask him 'cause I'm putting the MMM/2200 in his truck as a "gift" to him. I'd almost prefer to simply reset the Futaba back to factory settings and start from there. But I remembered reading about this issue and was curious if anything came out of it.??.....???

I had some difficulty with my Futaba 4PK today. Been using it mainly in the nitro rcs this summer but I converted my XL to brushless yesterday so first time trying to calibrate it to a Castle Creatons product. I had to increase the dead band in the Castle Link softare for it to calibrate. I also increased the arming time a little. One of them did the trick and it calibrated fine once I reversed the throttle on the transmitter that is. I use to have that problem when I had my 3PM FSPro w/ the MM. Can't remeber how many models the 3PM can hold but on the 4PK I just added a new model for the XL Brushless. That way I was sure all the setting were reset.

Hi,

It's been a long time.... ;-)

Thanks Gee for pointing me into a direction I haven't tried anymore. Must admit I'm really disappointed with the service CC has delivered here; my last emails regarding the status have never been answered even though CC promised to look into it.....

If the solution Gee described does not work I'm afraid a will leave CC and advice some of my friends looking into Brushless setups to look at alternatives as well.... too bad as I honestly liked the previous CC products I owned.

Keep you posted!

Regards, vincent

Before you call it quits on CC, I would give them a call. It is the busy season, and even then, they have been really busy. Your email probably got lost in the shuffle. It's a relatively small shop for the amount of products they produce.

Also, have you tried contacting Futaba? If one single receiver doesn't work with a particular ESC - - then it would seem to me that the fault lies with the receiver, not the ESC.

Hi,
i am sure R113ip can't work MM/MMM esc.
because R113ip is a PCM receiver, it build in pcm decoder IC , decoder IC work voltageic 3V ,output single voltage level between 2.6V~2.8V,
ESC can't identification right level. so sometime maybe work, maybe no.

you can solution issue.

just put a fail-safe in R113ip and MMM.

Well, the MMM only needs a logic level of about 2.0V to operate. So that's not the problem.

:whip::whip::whip::whip::whip::whip::whip::whip:

Thankyou for that helpful post, really goes a long way to resolve the OP's issue. :no:

EDIT:

Err, so its working fine now with the new/different rx? Seems like you dont even have an issue anymore?

Unfortunately digital radios seem to be very tricky sometimes to get working correctly with various escs- its just par for the course with the r/c hobby (ergo- try a different radio to diagnose the issue; if a different radio works fine, then you should take the issue up with radio equipment manufacturer and not the esc manufacturer, since the esc works fine :yes:)...

Hi,

Must admit being surprised by such a reaction from a President of CC.... Instead of "sorry, seems we overlooked something" you give me the "let's play the ball into the other corner"..... Communication is key and even after sending reminder emails I simply get no reaction from your company. If you simply asked your support guy about our communication you might have understand that I tried multiple different R113IP receivers already; all failing with the MMM and lovely working with alternative brushless setups. What a missed opportunity...

@suicideneil; yes, with the R146iP the issue is solved. The only downside of this is that the R146iP is a low range 6 channel parkflyer receiver where the R113IP the best long range range 3 channel receiver is Futaba created for PCM. Besides that, I have 4 R113IP receivers and just 1 R146iP which is in use for a different model already and all 4 failed the test....

@andywpj; Thanks for your solution. I still haven't tried the previos mentioned solution but you seem to have offered the safetynet. Thanks for that!

@BrianG; thanks for your reply. Yes, it could be that CC is too busy for answering support calls due to the season but I started communication already 5 months ago.... However, your reaction is valid and I honestly hope this is the reason instead of "we don't know how to solve it, so let's not talk about".....

Regards, vincent

Just tried this with a buddies 3pk! does the same thing- Just not compatable..


But for some reason the steering servo works fine.
esc goes crazy and LED's are all over the place. was up all night trying to figure it out

Weird- have you tried threatening it with a hammer yet?

Only other idea is to try different firmware versions on the esc- latest is 1.22? I believe, try 1.21 etc, might get lucky.

tried hammer, soldering iron, all the radom tweaks to the radio. a ballpoint pen... and a pair of nail clippers.:neutral:

'

OK, so I guess it's our problem that Futaba decides to ignore the accepted standard and release a receiver that doesn't conform?

There are accepted standards in the RC industry. Manufacturers are expected to conform to the standards. If one manufacturer decides to ignore the standards, why is it the responsibility for other manufacturers to adjust?

The correct course of action is to bug FUTABA, who decided to ignore the accepted standards in RC, TO FIX THEIR incorrectly designed receiver.


The MMM accepts a 2.0 - 5.5V logic level pulse train at 20-100 hz. The valid pulse width range is from .8ms to 2.4ms -- which is WAY more generous than the accepted standard.

The fact that some other manufacturer's devices work with the poorly designed Futaba receiver has more to do with luck than anything else. A large percentage of MMM controllers work fine with the R113P -- but some do not. This is because the R113P is right on the edge -- about a 1.8V output logic level. -- NO OTHER MANUFACTURER has EVER release a receiver that outputs less than 3.3V logic level. Futaba themselves have never released another receiver that outputs less than a 3.3V logic level.


So, my stand is: Futaba decided to ignore the accepted standard on one particular product. The proper course of action is to tell FUTABA that their product is defective, and ask for a fix. NOT to go to EVERY OTHER manufacturer, and ask them to change their design to fit a non-standard RX from Futaba. :whip::whip::whip:

Thanx!

Patrick

Patrick ownage.

Hi!

Sorry, some delay in my response....

Patrick, thanks for solving my issue! I sold the CC esc and decided to stay away from your products in the future. To make this news even better; more people at the club were awaiting positive news from you and decided to make the same move......

I honestly think your response is hilarious. If you read my previous posting well you might have understood that I was not happy with the support from CC even without questioning the source of the issue. The simple fact that your support is not responding, or responding with words like; we will dig into it and let you know without ever getting back has lost me months of waiting for a solution....... If your organisation would have stated that the issue was due to communication between esc and receiver and that you would have invested some time to test the 'failsafe' solution mentioned or offering me to sent the esc and the receiver for you to find a matching pair would have been another alternative to serving your customer(s)... At this moment you only pissed them off.....

Just a word of the technical side.... 'which is WAY more generous than the accepted standard' would have me expected that no other powercombo would work with the 113IP... Funny, the ones I have seen in my area do work with it. It seems that those companies are using even WAY more generous standards.... Now that's funny, don't you think?

Using your business title when writing what you did about 'poorly designed Futaba' is not the best marketing I would think. But, hey, if you really have some balls in your pants you simply put this statement on your website to avoid many loyal Futaba users to have to go through the same experience....

Bottomline, I honestly think you did a lousy job and you didn't take the opportunity to do anything about it. Same goes for the support I received, or better not received from your company which brought me to my decision.

Offcourse, we are just a small group of possible customers so revenue wise you will not sleep any worse over this. The simple fact that this news spreads a little over the region will not make you sleep any worse.... Why do I think so? Because you showed with your responses that you don't care.... and that my dear CC president, made me decide to quit using any of your products.....

Now, to conclude this thread...... good night, sleep well and dream on....

Regards, winkje

PS @Jokerjustin: thanks for your feedback in this thread. Most probably your age prevents you from really adding something valuable..... I'm not native in english; don't know how to say it properly but my final greeting to you is exactly the same as your avatar.....

Are taking the f*cking piss or what winkje?

Your RX IS DEFECTIVE, NOT THE ESC. That is why 99.9% of other rxs work perfectly fine with the castle escs. If you cant understand something so simple, then I doubt ANY esc manufacturer would want you as a customer- Patrick even explained why your crappy rx doesnt work, because futaba didnt stick to accepted industry industry standards; tell THAT to your little friends while you're at it. You cant expect Castle to redesign their esc because ONE person had an issue? As for not responding to your demands, I imagine its because they wwre too busy making escs and designing new ones, not trying to work out why one person's rx isnt working properly- maybe head over to futaba and tell them the same thing you've said here & see what their repsonce is...

Cant help some people, no matter how hard you try, better off just ignoring their ignorance of the facts... :no:

I'm sorry you feel that way.

There are reasons there are standards in this industry. Futaba chose to ignore the standards.

The decision to not change our design was based on the fact that high power RC equipment (like the MMM) is sensitive to noise.
Futaba's receiver design is defective -- it doesn't allow enough signal to noise ratio on the receiver line to ensure safe operation.

We made the decision consciously and deliberately. I'm sorry you don't agree with the decision.

We feel safety is important, and therefore chose not to compromise our design to accommodate a defective design from another manufacturer.

The correct course of action on your part would have been to contact Futaba, and ask them why they chose to produce a receiver that doesn't conform to accepted standards, and ask them to fix THEIR design.

Instead, you chose to single us out, and bash us for not compromising safety.

Hi,

Ok. Final try..... read carefull.....

Castle Creations Support has communicated to me via email that this issue was known to them:

22/6/2009

I explained my issue and received this answer:

'We have one of these coming in and will be doing testing with it. A gentleman had 12 of them, 10 did not work, 2 did. We're wondering if Futaba changed something without telling anyone that could be keeping it from working.

Joe Ford
Product Specialist
Castle Creations'


22/6/2009

After thanking for the reply I asked what would be best to do and received this answer:

Yes, wait for test results. If we can fix it on our ESCs to make it work we will. If it's something that only Futaba can fix, we're all "up the creek".

Joe Ford
Product Specialist
Castle Creations


20/8/2009

My mail: Joe, 2 months nearly passed,,,,, Any news?

Answer:

Informed engineers. Will check on progress.

Joe Ford
Product Specialist
Castle Creations

Since then 3 emails with the request to keep me updated... No response...

Point clear? CC left me in the dark and simply does not communicate. As stated in my previous responses; the technical challenge is one, but communication about it is vital.....

But hey, I'm not spending anymore time on this. In this same thread someone else confirms the issue.... In the email from CC support it was stated that 10 out of 12 cases have the issue...... @suicideneil: if you feel this is 0,1% you better buy a calculator right away and never ever trust your math skills....

Patrick; smart to end with words like 'and bash us for not compromising safety' as you know as I do that most people will completely agree with that strategy... My point is less complex: Would everyone agree with no communication from Support? That's the issue....

I understand you want to shift it to the technical details; you're an engineer, not a manager. You focus on details, not on the process.... You keep overlooking the issue of communication....

I'm not an engineer but when I see that other companies sell powersolutions that work as a charm and I have seen at least 14 of them now, I can conclude 2 things: I hit on the almost incredible situation of seeing the only 14 working versions of them or... they have done a better job. I leave it to you to decide....

So, again, to wrap up: this situation took 7 months and a lot of frustration without having a working powercombo. For me Castle Creations tends to neglect at least my requests for support. The additions from their president in this threath are eh.... poor..... and that's a diplomatic expression. but he, I can't help that some people, no matter how hard I treid, are better off just ignoring their ignorance of the facts...

Regards, winkje

Ah, OK -- I got the point about tech support. I'll talk with them about that. You shouldn't have had to come to me for an answer --

I'll take some of the blame though, we took quite a while to do the investigation, and we tried several circuit changes that would have allowed the Futaba to work -- but weren't satisfied with the noise immunity on the ESC after the changes were made.

I should have communicated with you the REASONS we decided not to change the RX circuit on the MMM as well.

We will all work on our communications skills. :)

Patrick

Guess you failed at reading between the lines, or just on them:

Yes, ideally Castle should have repsonded to you, but maybe you just didnt take the hint- no solution to issue, so no responses/ time dedicated to fixing a problem that WOULD HAVE MADE THE ESC UNSAFE. Instead the engineers at castle got on with some more useful work. Emails can get lost or ignored, or overlooked even especially when the reply will be same as before ('wait for test results, or buy a different radio'). They do have a phone number you could ring also..

Nothing wrong with my mathes either, concidering the is only one rx type that doesnt work (sometimes) with the MMM, out of thousands & thousands of different models and makes etc etc...

You still havent said if you've contacted futaba to try and resolve the issue either?

Sorry you have a crappy radio dude, maybe you should concider upgrading to a better one, say 2.4ghz perhaps? ;)

Patrick,

Thanks for your reply!

It takes guts to answer the way you did and I do appreciate it. Thanks for that! I tried to send you a PB but due to a full mailbox on your side I didn't succeed....

I do appologize for using some firm words and expressions; I do hope you understand where these came from.

Regards, winkje

@SuicideNeil; I trust you to understand I will not respond to your reply....

Winkje's issue is not an isolated one, and he will have problems in the future on some other HV brushless system. It took repeated attempts to get my bother in laws to bind with the MMM - I think I sat there doing the programming over and over again for about a half hour until it just finally "took" - I didn't change what I was doing with it the entire time. He had the same issue trying to use the Futaba with his Novak system. I've been around this stuff long enough to understand that sometimes certain things just dont mix well. My choice would have been to ditch the Futaba, not the MMM.

Amen.

While I've been enjoying the heck out of my CC products, and have yet to need to send anything in for repair, I do agree about the communication issue. I sent support an email 2 weeks ago with some questions about installing new power leads on my MMM, and another email 1 week ago with the same questions. I got the auto reply from Castle saying the message was received and will be replied to, but never an actual reply. My experience is, unfortunately, its much easier to get a hold of Patrick on here, than to reach anyone @ castle via email.

The problem with that is, most customers in need of support aren't going to be searching for forums that have castle support sub forums. They are just going to go straight to the website and shoot an email to support.*



*(Castle/Patrick, this isn't bashing, just some friendly feedback.)

I appreciate the candor as well. :)

We do have an opening for another tech support person -- we know that we are getting a little behind. (Anybody want to work at Castle??)

Please feel free to call tech support -- it's often easier to get a quick answer on the phone.

Thanx!

Patrick

I've heard this is the case. Unfortunately, I'm computer tech support at my job, and spend most of my time supporting our users here (sitting on the phone). Doesn't leave me much time to try and get on the phone with Castle support. haha

That's the reason I personally prefer emailing for support rather than calling.

-John

I vote for Neil as customer relations specialist!!!!

Have you tried turning it off & on again?

Is it plugged in?

Computer says no....

I vote BrianG or Lutach as Castle techs... :yes:

maybe neil and jason from maxamps can compete for most sarcasm :lol: