Larger machine tool discussions...
 

Ok, so spurred by redshift (Jason?) I want this thread to deal with shop machines that are versatile, affordable, desireable? (do I make you randy!) and just plain nuts!

I am referrring to mills, lathes, drill presses, and other stuff you have or want in your workshop!

Any idea or questions are more than welsome, I want this to be a brainstorming area to discuss or introduce stuff like this. I am looking to get a combo mill/lathe to get a feel for simple machining.

Redshift pointed this guy out: http://grizzly.com/products/Combo-La...tachment/G0516

Looks good to me, but maybe the more experience users could throw in their thoughts...

Also looking at this: http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-S...ll-Press/G7948

I need a good drill press, and this looks sturdy and in my price range... Plus free shipping (gotta love that!)

This kind of stuff interests me a lot. I would love to learn some basic fabrication skills with a mill and/or lathe. Unfortunately, the cost of a decent setup is out of my budget for the time being, and probably for a few more years, but someday......

I like this thread, and I'm also in need of some stuff. I live with my mother, so we don't got much technical thingy's lol (Not even a drill!)

I really like to work with metal, but I haven't got good basic tools over here. A few weeks ago I bought a Dremel, so I can do some basic cutting etc. I still have to buy a cheap vise and a (I don't know the name) thing where I can put a drill in. (Picture of it: http://www.louistools.de/catalog/ima...ft/5023000.jpg) I'm thinking about buying that one in the link, it's a Wolfcraft and it costs 55 euro (about 80 dollars) new. But if somebody knows a other good one, LMK :) And if somebody knows a good and cheap vise, I would also like to hear it. (Doesn't have to be very big, a 100mm one should be enough)


Yes, I'm really just searching some basic tools, because a real mill is far too expensive for me.

I have the basics
Drill Press
Bench grinder
power drill
dremel
parts washer.


Trying to convince my dad to get a table top band saw or a mill

If I had my own garage I would pick up:


http://www.millerwelds.com/products/mig/millermatic_350_350p/

And:
http://www.millerwelds.com/products/tig/dynasty_350/


I'd probably buy the TIG first as it's what I actually like to do, but a MIG is what a guy actually makes money with. I'd like to work a full time job and be able to do projects on the side for people.

We have these in shop:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-x...ed-Lathe/G4002

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44991

and I'm pretty sure it's this one:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...temnumber=5980


My grandpa went on a buying spree about 5 yrs ago after his heart attack. He wanted a machine shop to leave to his kids to learn on. My dad being the only decent son of the family will inherit this whenever. But they are at my disposal right now. The problem is: 1 I dont know how to used the properly 2 I dont have the time to learn.


Linc: I will say that bit, clamps, and other necessary tools to accompany these machine are a necessitiy and may run the bill up a bit.

I realize you said larger tools but for a tinkerer like myself that mostly tinkers with small stuff, I would really like to get stuff from Sherline. They can come with digital read outs and CNC ready package.

http://www.sherline.com/tools.htm

From my experience with people that work in the machine shops, Grizzly products are priced low for a reason - but these guys are used to running machines that hold +/-.0005" over 4'.
Jet Equipment is usually considered a step up from Grizzly, and their prices reflect that.

Are you going to be machining steel? Do you need a coolant system included on the machine, or will you apply it manually?

In the end, you want repeatability, some amount of accuracy (is your slot going to be a slot, and is it positioned properly relative to whatever you wanted it to be). The ability to do this will determine if you end up using it. Also, the ability to change speeds easily. If its a cumbersome operation to change your speeds, you will end up leaving it set on whatever you last had it set for, and likely use your dremel to cut that new part.

Like Nitrostarter said, your vices and cutters will make or break you!

I have a few Miller welders, they are great, never let me down!

I was wondering about grizzly quality, but it has to be better than HF...

I need to invest in a good floor standing drill press first, then maybe give the combo machine a try. I am good at selling stuff so I can always move it on to some unsuspecting sucker (or someone with lower standards).

All good info, keep it coming!

James why dont you just get a used bridgeport ?.

I intend to put a modest workshop together over the next couple of years

At this point I'll be purchasing used machines that are bigger than the more compact hobbyist devices. Ebay is a way of buying them but in Sydney auctions are the best avenue to secure quality equipment (we just don't have the population selling online) that is in good condition & usually has a reasonable amount of tools/tips/accessories included in the lot...many lots have more than you may want or need & the extras can be sold to offset the initial purchase cost

I'm thinking a CNC mill, drill press, small lathe & maybe a small extraction system

http://houma.craigslist.org/tls/1491457788.html

http://neworleans.craigslist.org/tls/1510769574.html

Taig's are supposedly good equipment
http://neworleans.craigslist.org/tls/1510586447.html

drill press
http://texarkana.craigslist.org/tls/1489092158.html

finally, the mother of all, a Bridgeport...better have your forklift ready!http://monroe.craigslist.org/tls/1501364718.html

I would love to put together my own workshop, however apartment living in sydney doesn't lend itself to one. No matter how much I like these machines I wouldn't want to sleep with one...

For now I will just keep hounding my bosses to get in some more machines at work, hopefully in the new year we should at least have a mill, possibly cnc. Either that or we will make our own, currently build printers with xyz movement, so a cnc isn't too big a stretch I think.

This is what I use to do my custom work. My employer ownes it but no one ever used it. We got it in and it sat in the crate for over a year. I came in one weekend and set it up and started to learn how to use it.

http://www.atrump.com/product_detail...g=2&pro_id=182

-JB

i personally have a CNCmasters baron. Got it for christmas last year :) Cost about 13k after all the little doodads and a good set of tooling.
it'll hold
+/- 0.00025 per inch
+/- 0.003" in 12"
with resolution in the ten thousandths.
I'm running soldiworks 2009 with a cam software.
Mills really good for projects that you arnt in a hurry to have done. With the spindle speed maxing out at 1500 RPM, really cuts down your feed rate.
also have the basic shop equipment.


i do have access to the grand baby of all babies....the HAAS 50 series Tapper and HAAS 5-axis VMC. :yes: they are sexy and powerfull machines:party:

Gosh you make it sound like Grizzly stuff is banged out in a backalley lol. I have not worked with Grizzly equipment per se, but I have had a close look at some of their woodworking stuff. It is very well made, far cry from HF.

Jet machinery I have heard a lot of mixed opinion on. I have run a few Jet lathes, and I guess I am indifferent on the ones I've run. Neither great or horrible....

Ok, prepare to be bored by some annoying logic.

Unless linc is looking to make turbine shafts, the larger equipment is not of much use to him. A combo machine will do the job of 3 and take up the space of one. CNC stuff is great, but for getting a feel for things, you actually need to feel it. You need the mechanical connection to the work, some real feedback. Starting with an NC could be quite dangerous, if not to the operator, then to the machine itself. And for one-off jobs, I certainly wouldn't want to program anything, that defeats the purpose.

Used equipment is a gamble, you may get a good one, or you may get one that's looser than Pamela Anderson on an average Saturday..

For spot cooling, Koolmist units are the cat's ass.

We are talking about hobby-to-intermediate level, which is why I recommended the Grizzly units. Their prices on tooling and accessories is also very reasonable, and they would have at least 95% of it in house. One stop shopping!

Damn, there goes my idea of a fully portable, turbine powered lipo charger...

I understand the "feel" aspect of getting the hang of making stuff. I work with my hands on a daily basis (yeah baby, do I make you randy?!) and am pretty good at visualizing stuff and getting it made with my crude tools. I am also a good steel welder, no experience with other metals though, no need yet.

So the combo machine looks good, although a small cnc would be nice, like the one Jeff linked to in covington (a few miles from me). Wish I had the funds (well I do but they are earmarked for firearms and ammo) to buy both. I just need to jump in and buy something, find its shortcomings and then upgrade!

This is all great info, keep it coming! I bought a few books on running machine tools and have some ideas about how it is done.

With what I do for a living I have a lot of basic stuff at home; Miller 110v Spool gun(can weld aluminum, SS, reg steel) , Smoke wrench, Plazma cutter,Compressor, small sturdy work bench with nice large vise and my giant tool box. But all this stuff fills my shed up, Don't really have a decent work area or any room for more toys. Hopeing to afford some day to level my old work shed and build(or have built) a much larger work shed with A/C to add all the goodies as this thread is partaining too. Right now I do 99% of my RC work in my bedroom(thankfully its a large room at 18'X20' w/bath), but all of the cutting and grinding gets done outside in the shed. Pipe dream I guess, but someday it'll happen ?
I envy anyone whom has a garage and the funds to put the nessasary tools and extra goodies to keep a hobbist in a orgasmic state.
I'd give one of my nutz for a 2 car garage and a sweet lathe/mill.

Damn straight. A proven design that has lasted the years. You cannot go wrong with a bridegport CNC mill or manual. The great thing is that the head on all is interchangeable. Just be careful on the used machinery and make sure the ways are not going out as at that point it's better to just replace the machine.

Most of the cheaper machines can only handle small jobs and do not have good duty ratings. I looked into everything I could several years ago for my machine shop I managed and it always came back to bridgeport. I found some nice deals on 5-10 year old cnc machines.

To use welding as an example, it's 75% proper machine settings, etc, and 25% user skill.

In that same vain, standard machining is 3/4 proper feeds/speeds/tool selection, and 1/4 skill.

James if you are adept at welding thin gauge steel with minimal distortion, welding heavy gauge (ANY metal) will be a walk in the park.. Welders almost always begin with gas (oxyacetylene) brazing, then welding. So you are probably much better prepared than you think.

Tig is the only process I actually enjoy, especially stainless. I have to have projects to keep myself from getting rusty. I did a full exhaust for my bike back in '05, 100% 304, from the flanges back, even the baffles are SS. Full freeform as well, no blueprints were used.

One of these combos would be priceless for gun mods, or reproduction parts- as if you hadn't thought about that aspect hehe.

But really you are only concerned with different materials' characteristics, and keeping all that info in your brain.

A quick example would be, you don't cut steel with toolsteel.
It will work, but there is not enough hardness differential between the cutter and the stock, and your edge will dull fast.

It's not difficult at all, and the best way to learn is simply experimenting with materials and tooling.

I do agree that a bridgeport with a knee? would be a great machine to own!

As for welding I learned with a mig, welding sheet metal on cars. I can weld pretty well and have done some crazy stuff, none of which can be repeated here...

Anyways, I have wanted to get into machine tools for a while, so I guss a decent mill would be a great start... I will look around the classifieds to see what is up.

well, Linc likes to experiment:lol:

Your exactly right on that - we often get caught up in wha tis the best versus what will do the job.


!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW!

+1. At my job over the years I have been able to talk my boss into buying a lot of equipment so that we could start building a lot of the componets we usually have made by other vendors in house because we were not getting the quality we needed. That and having parts made at weld shops, sheet metal shops and machine shops caused us a lot of oops moments. That's when I said we needed a fixit machine so we bought this:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=42827

While it's not a high quality unit we have had this one for almost 5 years and other than a leak around the seal of the spindle its been a trooper. Over time as needed I got a Wilton 1310 Vise, Tbolt and hold down set with step blocks, parallels, dial indicator and a host of end mills. I bought a coolant pump at wholesale tool for $65 and use the Cool Mist coolant. That stuff works fine other than alge grows in the tank after a few days of not being used wish I knew how to fix that. Funny thing is I use the same thing in our bandsaw and it never does that. I do most of the prototyping at my job so I use this machine a lot and the finish is just fine as long as you don't need anything closer than .001".

When we decided to start doing our welding in house I searched around and got this one:

http://www.millerwelds.com/products/tig/syncrowave_200/

One of the things you have to worry about when picking a welder is how much can your wiring handle. I noticed that some of the guys had 300 amp welders listed but they need a 61 amp service at 230V which unless you have a 200a service will pretty much suck the breakers into the insulation at full tilt. We originally bought a 230V unit and after looking at the specs it needed 54 amps at 230V. I had to make a 75' run to where the welder was going to be so I needed #6 wire X 3 (2 hots and a ground off of 230V 3ph). At the time copper was through the roof and you have to buy a minimum of 500'. We ended up returning the 230V unit and getting a 460V unit. That way I only needed 27A and 10ga wire.

We do about 80% SST most everything is at least 304 and some 316. SST is weird to weld it moves around so much. The frames we were getting from our vendors were more than 3/8" out and football shaped. When we started making them we were able to keep them under 1/16". SST is my favorite, since it's clean and leaves all the pretty gold n purpley beads. We use only Argon on this machine even when we do mild steel. I use Silicon Bronze if it's got to be pretty when welding mild steel.

For welding mild steel frames and sheetmetal drive gaurds, and being portable I got a Hobart Handler 140:

http://www.hobartwelders.com/product...ed/handler140/

It's about the biggest 110 powered Mig you can get (Lincoln and Miller have comparable units as well, Hobart and Miller are in cahoots). One thing I wish it had is a variable amp setting (more fine than just 4 steps). It works great on up to 1/4" in a single pass but it pops a 20 amp breaker after about 30 seconds of cont. welding on the highest setting. I have found that if I plug it in to the Miller it works fine :lol:.

I have been asking for a plasma for a while maybe next year.


Jeff

[/QUOTE]=J57ltr;339772 That stuff works fine other than alge grows in the tank after a few days of not being used wish I knew how to fix that. Funny thing is I use the same thing in our bandsaw and it never does that. [/QUOTE]

Dang it, I've run across that issue before. Let me do some checking and see if I can find an answer for you.

Linc, are you looking at putting something in your garage, or you body shop? He made a good point with the electrical service requirements - a big machine is going to be wired in, as opposed to the "portable" equipment.

JT and jtr, we use an algaecide additive, coolant can go rancid pretty quick. Not sure what brand, but you can do a search for algaecide/bacteria inhibitor additives. It does work wonders, the same coolant that would get to stinking in days is now good for months, at least.

Diesel algaecide can work also...not ideal though (some are flammable)

The most popular home use mill to convert to cnc is the Seig X3 sold by both Grizzly and Harbor Freight (as well as some others). There are several kits to do it yourself, as well as tons of info on Cnczone from users who have done so and are producing parts that far exceed the tolerances required for our parts.

If you want a mack-daddy rtr cnc setup that is still single phase powered so you don't have to mess with phase convertors or have three-phase power, then the Tormach and the Industrial Hobbies machines are probably the two most regarded.

When you said "larger" machine tool discussion you guys weren't kidding. I'm going to have to keep an eye on this. One day I'd like to upgrade from the Dremel, Chicago electric 110v MIG, grinder, etc. But the Drill press, cheap 2 axis vise, and milling bits have gotten me by pretty good so far for my hobby stuff.

Let's see some big toys in action, none of these will fail to impress :surprised:

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I have 240 3 phase wired to the main building, so that should not be an issue. The equipment would be on the back wall, not 5 feet from the box.

Redshift - that there was definitley engineers porn.....love it! I liked how they were doing the fan blades - must have been part of a prototype process.

Linc - I talked with one of my mechanics at work this morning. He has been building his own submarine over the last 5 years, and he bought one of those Grizzly combo units. He said it works good as a lathe, but for the mill portion, he has issues keeping the dovetails true - and that is what I was thinking the difference will be between cheaper machines and some a little higher end. He said if he could do it over again, he wouldn't have bought this one. He didn't know which he would have bought, but he said he'd of spent more money. He did say that the place he bought it at had both grizzly and jet, and he thought at the time the Grizzly seemed to be built better. Now he's not so sure. In the store, neither one seemed like the dove tails had any slop - but they probably had so much grease packed into them that they felt solid.

So uh, just your average tinkerer then.. :tongue:

The problem is there are really only Grizzly or HF for choices with the combo machines. There are a few disadvantages with combos, but are outweighed by the advantages IMO.

One example would be that your lathe chuck doubles as an indexer. Another is the ability to do spin-milling. For cutting large square recesses on shafts, that can be priceless. I have been annoyed with some projects in the past, having to go between the lathe and the mill. Because you need to re-find your reference point every time...

I think unless you are doing military-spec work, any of the HF or Grizzly machines would do quite well. The size of the machine needs to be determined by whatever the individual deems sufficient.

As for the venerable Bridgeport, I have used good ones and really sloppy ones. That's almost entirely a matter of how they were maintained, but no consolation when you need to hold +- .001 on a machine with 5X or more that amount of slop.

That illustrates my philosophy I guess. Do more, with less!

Just droppin a few more I had collected.

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Embedding disabled on this one- and no it's not a RickRoll
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhkWINPRK3A





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Your killing me Redshift....I'm gonna have carpet burns soon - people are going to start talking about me and Harold...

I had high hopes for friction stir welding when it first showed up a couple years back. It appears to have hit the limitations that we all thought it might have.

We have quite a few of those orbital welders in our tube and duct shop. Neat machines - put a few welders out of work though.

Ha I wasn't trying to seduce... the women could learn a thing or two here huh?

I was looking for a vid, can't find it. 10+ years back I saw on some show, they were cutting the propshafts for an aircraft carrier... showed this massive lathe taking what appeared to be about 3/4" or more cut. As in 3/4" DEEP. The chip coming off it was easily a hundred pounds per minute, just insane. Turned slow as hell, but just amazing to see. Century Turn makes a vertical lathe with either a 12 or 16 foot chuck. I couldn't find that on YT either...

What I would really love seeing, are the machines that make these machines. That kind of stuff is very elusive it seems...

And I just cracked a thousand posts :party:

you say that like it's a bad thing:neutral:

That would be amazing. I cant even fathom that kind of a cut - the stress in that cutter AND the material had to be huge! Had to have been loud...
Would they have been making it out of Aluminum? Just can't imagine cutting steel like that.

I cant even think of something to say to cover my ass on this one!!!!:na:

It was steel, chip turned a nice blue coming off. The shaft was 3 to 4 feet diameter, and I'm pretty positive they said there were 40 foot sections, and multiple sections per screw. They showed the welders joining the sections of the hull as well, I wish I could find that, I think it may have been on TLC?

I was talking with my machinist yesterday about that, and he said he wouldnt be suprised to see that for the rough cuts. He said with the advancements in the heads, you could pretty much cut the same dia as the cutter head. He said that now with the removable bits, you could likely do more than that. Very impressive tech.