No ask, no tell me
 

Hopefully everyone can keep this civil.

I think it is way past time for this though:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/...lson-nebraska/

I don't support the gay/lesbian lifestyle but seriously, trying to continuously alienate people does nothing to help anyone. All you do is force people into discontent and lying. I have gay members of my family and would never want them to feel they have to lie or hide that from us. I would never want them to feel unwelcome.

When it comes to the military it should be about the quality of the soldier and not what there personal choices are that have no bearing on serving in the military.

If it was me I would be concerned with the soldier next to me being the best and not who they share their bed with.

Anyway, what do others think? And remember keep this respectful regardless of your views.

Who or what you share your bed with is no concern of mine. All that matters is that you do your work well. The Romans did it, the Greeks did it. Why can't we in a modern time not handle this?

Didn't you hear? It's the latest trend for many Senators and Congressmen these days.

http://www.mediabistro.com/agencyspy...gshotshots.jpg

Play nice everyone... :)

The memo wasn't forwarded to me.:lol:

Soo, don't ask don't tell is serving openly? Serving disguised means?- gays in the forces were just getting away with it? Most gays I've met either never struck me as gay or never had much to do with them. Except one, he is a good man, he has been a long standing friend of my sister and helped her through difficult times.

All countries and races have range of characters, the creed or the colour shouldn't matter. Particularly in times of need/conflict which enlist fit eligible men.

I might be more reserved had I not met my sisters friend.

If they want to serve let them serve. Besides there is a more pressing concern on our military these days besides homosexuals. Which is, it isn't just the gays that want to join, it is everyone. Before the depression, cough, recession, excuse me... The gov was handing out signing bonuses to get people to join due to lack there of. Now, with less jobs on a daily basis many are turning to military services as a form of employment.

I am not sure how bad it is where you live, but here in NV, 9 out of every 10 applicants gets denied rather than accepted. Our military has become picky with those they let in.

A friend of mine, recently laid off from his employer, decided to join the National Guard here in Reno area, Stead, and got declined. He passed everything with flying colors, but apparently they had met their quota close two four months back and are only continuing to test to seek future recruits. When he would be able to join, they had no timeline.

Personally, it's not my lifestyle. And I don't believe it's "how it should be" (biologically speaking, nature inherently wants to procreate to continue the species). But what people do is their business as long as they don't try to force their lifestyle on me, and will "settle" for equal rights (not special) rights. That said, the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" scheme makes perfect sense.

Just curious here (and somewhat on topic) but it seems like there are a LOT more gay/lesbians lately. Do you guys think this is simply because it is more socially "allowed" nowadays, or some other reason (like nature's attempt at keeping the human population in check)?

I think it's the same amount as always. It's just seem like there are more, because of the media and whatnot.

I think there may be more who experiment with it do to how it is viewed in the mainstream now. I also believe there are some who will do it for attention. Then I believe there are those who really feel/believe that they are gay and that number is probably the same as always as snellemin said.

I am with BrianG I don't want it rubbed in my face and it forced to be treated as special. This is a lesson we could all take to heart as to not rub our own lifestyles and beliefs in other peoples faces. As the old saying goes "tall fences make for good neighbors".

Personally I would much rather live next to an openly gay/lesbian couple than some hetero couple who throw wild parties all weekend stay drunk and make noise all hours of the night. In fact some of the best neighbors I had were a lesbian couple and the worst a guy and his girlfriend who always had there loser friends over causing all manner of issues.

I guess the thing I don't get is banning gays from the military or the tongue-in-cheek way of not allowing it but still allowing it.

Personally, I think the very large % of gays/lesbians in western culture is a side-effect of the society itself. Ever since the 'women's rights' movement decades ago (supported/funded by the Rothchilds), the family unit has disappeared, women as not as happy as they used to be, men are not as happy, children are placed in day cares, people don't have time to make homemade meals like they used to, it goes on and on. Women's right is probably the biggest cruelest hoax on man kind, it is one of the root causes to all peoples general unhappiness, and has, IMHO, infiltrated the minds of women, and to keep it short, is the main reason why we (Western Culture) have so many gay/lesbian (not that I dislike them, but it's not 'desirable' for society).

Interesting thoughts. While I can't subscribe to that wholly I think there are some valid points in there.

We in western culture have degraded and devalued family and I do believe many of the ills we face are a result of this.

While technologically speaking we are at the most advanced point in the Earth's history I do not know how socially speaking we could say this is so. I also think a lot of our technology has degraded are relationships. When you see people out to eat together and all are tapping away on their own PED's instead of enjoying each others company it is a sickening site. People more interested in Facebook than real relationships, people more in tune to their iphone than their spouse, people more into their work than what their children are doing.

Different way of looking at it.

Our societies way of life these days is in the shitter, but I don't think it has anything to do with the creation of Homosexuality. If we had more traditional roles, yes we would have a stronger foundation with less people searching for a norm. However part of America's foundation is that of personal freedom or rights. With these at our backbone we are doomed to yield to the stupidest of lifestyles as well as the best and everywhere in between. Not that I should come off as saying a homosexual lifestyle is a stupid way of living, there are many extremely successful gays in our community. What I am trying to say is that we are at a point in this nations time where there is no set definition of what it means to be American. In most Americans eyes including mine, to be an American is to be free to do what ever it is you want within the confines of the law. No more apple pie, cheeseburgers, and football. Hello whatever the hell you can get away with. Which includes sticking the largest brushless motor in anything with wheels.

A few scattered random thoughts: (I reserve the right to clarify these ideas if they don't come across as intended or are misunderstood for any reason.)

I have always wondered about the biological factors that may or may not pre-dispose preference. Different preferences observed include: opposite gender, same gender, same/different races, young age, really young age, old age, different species, living, dead, single partner, multiple partners, inanimate objects, etc.

I don't claim to know much about anything, but what I have learned/observed is that there are small groups of people who have an unusual preference for things not typical.

Typical is of course subjective, but for me this includes desire for a sexual partner not of an appropriate gender or age for healthy reproduction.

Are these atypical desires caused by genetic makeup, the environment in which people are raised, or a combination? Everyone has genetic differences and tendencies. If genetic, when is it okay to act on your desire versus suppressing it? Should we as a society encourage, discourage, or ignore it? Different cultures view these preferences in varying lights. Some cultures are okay with multiple partners, some with partners of really young ages (13 year old girls marrying 30 year old guys, etc).

The attitude/acceptance toward some of the more "extreme" preferences (dead people, inanimate objects, infants) is shared amongst most cultures, but sure enough there are some minor groups that don't have a problem with it at all. The line is drawn differently by each culture, which is pretty fascinating. The line changes over time within most cultures. At what point does the line of acceptance drift far enough away that it becomes detrimental to the culture? It's certainly interesting to think about.

I am pretty conservative. My opinion is that anything outside of a healthy relationship between a man and women is considered atypical and should not be encouraged or celebrated. This is not to say I consider someone who prefers same gender equal to someone who prefers infants. This is not to say I think that any of these groups should have less/no rights, unless they are harming someone else's rights. I just don't feel that I should have to go out of my way to celebrate or accept their differences as normal, when they are abnormal.

Regarding the original point of this thread, if I were in the armed forces, I would want to know my team-mates' preference just so I'd know who to not change in front of. I don't think they should be housed with the heterosexuals for the same reason I don't think men should be housed with women. They can fight together and work together, just shouldn't be forced to sleep/change/etc in the same room.

I don't claim to have the answers. These are just things I wonder about that are interesting to me.

I have had this conversation before on many attempts to do away with DNA and genetics being a fault to Homosexuality. If you are a believer in scientific factors of evolution, than why would a species DNA allow for a form of being that goes against the simplest factor of life, reproduction. The sole purpose of life is life, and its forever continuum. I think it would be impossible for a reproductive life form to evolve a gene that would allow that life form to chose not to reproduce. Homosexuality is more of a mental construct that a genetic one. They simply chose the same sex over the other due to mental history or factors in their life that allow them to become more acceptable to the same sex. Again this can fall back on the lack of an American standard of life. With out a normal lifestyle proposed as the common way you should live people have no mental capacity to what was once considered the normal American way.

Completely agree.

On the opposite side, if you are religious, and think that god created you the way you are, and being such way is against 'god's plan', then.... well, need I say more?

On a religious viewpoint I still see it as a decision. Depending on how you perceive the Bible, God gave you the ability to chose from right or wrong. By choosing to go against God's rules you chose to damn yourself to hell. Blah Blah Blah, back to our government. If your gay, that's a choice. If your willing to join the military, that is another decision. If our government sees gays as a threat to the military, yet another decision. If gays are any different from any other person who serves the military, now that is a question.

Edit: probably should have used the word choice instead of decision.

I personally don't believe that it's genetic, but I don't know enough to prove it one way or the other. If it is biological, I would guess that it's more of a genetic abnormality than an evolutionary trait, like being left-handed. (lol)

I really despise the term "homophobic" as a blanket to cover all who disagree with their choice of lifestyle. I don't agree with polygamy either, but it doesn't make my "polygamyphobic".

ZPB, interesting point about religion. I think God created a template for the human body but then allows nature to take its course with respect to forming the body within the womb. This helps explain abnormalities like my son's brain not forming properly. I think we are all given challenges to overcome. Many married monogamists may (nice alliteration) have a "natural" desire to stray and spread seed, so the challenge is to overcome the temptation and become stronger for it in order to maintain a solid family unit.

I dont think anyone wakes up decides 'hmm, I think I'll be gay today, since its socially acceptable now'. :rofl:

It isnt a lifestyle choice, you cant help being gay anymore than you can help being black, white,tall or short- its the way you are born; just takes some people longer to realise & admit to it than others, for obvious reaosns I would hope.

As for letting homosexuals serve in the military, why not? Just so long as they dont start wearing pink bandanas as muslim insurgents would have a field day... :no:

In that case would you say murderers, thieves, and rapist grow up to be what they are. Or is there a choice behind whether or not you kill someone. Your suggesting fate, or a predetermined life. Ultimately if that is the case than there is nothing to life. If I am going to die tomorrow as of an already decided fate, I think I may chose to be gay tomorrow. ;)

Being white, black, short, or tall are genetic traits. You can not chose those. Maybe alter them, but you can not chose your genes. There isn't such a case with homosexuality. It is a mental decision. Many gays live with the opposite sex for years before they decide to do what they want to do, which is decide that they want to be with the same sex.

I think that's well said. It fits what I believe. I also don't have a problem with evolution for the most part. There are many missing pieces like many things in science but don't see were anyone should believe God wouldn't let things evolve naturally as they need to.

Going back to genetic vs psychological I believe it's a psychological thing and can't be compared to being a different race. I believe that many factors including some that could be genetic can cause these feelings in people and fault no one for their feelings.

As was said previously by kulang:

It's also hard to get past reno's point about evolution and what guides it to believe it would be a genetic part of evolution. One would think evolution would want to guide away from such things.

But to the main point I go in public bathrooms with gay people, I have been at the Y and other places and probably been in the shower areas with gay people, and none have ever jumped me. Of course there will always be people who take inappropriate actions but I don't think with the gay community that it is the norm.

Now I have heard the prison factor presented here but most psychologists/psychiatrists and the studies there of will point that homosexuality in prison is not about sex as much as it is about dominance. Kind of like when one male dog mounts another.

It's also not like a black man can say that he was living a white lifestyle all his life and now has decided to be what he truly is as a black man.

I tend to think some people may have pre-dispositions for certain preferences, but that does not mean they need to accept them and give in to them. I notice this by watching large families grow up together. The nuture part is as similar as possible, same parents, income level, etc, but sometimes one boy will drift toward dresses while the rest stay with sports. I think the same goes for murderers, etc.

I think it's okay to have differing opinions about all of this, but it's pretty tough to say you know for a fact one way or the other, regardless of how strong one's opinion may be.

Obama?

By all means I hope I do not portray the image that I have any idea that I know what I am talking about. I have a few gay friends and have had this conversation, argument, debate many many times. From those conversations, some with my friends, my friends and I have come to the conclusion that they have made a decision to be gay, due to their personal lifestyles and paths they they took getting to today.

For me it's not the fear of action, but simply privacy. If a straight guy was in a shower full of women, he's going to be tempted to stare at them if nothing else. If a straight guy is in a shower full of guys, he'll break his own neck NOT to look at the other guys in there. Obviously there are exceptions, but I just want to maintain my own personal privacy.

That wasn't directed toward you. It was just a general thought for everyone in the discussion. It helps keeps things civil and interesting when people remember that none of this can really be proven, so we're just sharing ideas.

I worked with many gay people when I lived in California. I never ended up being friends with them. Not because of hate, but just because the flamboyance of many of them was irritating. Even the non-flamboyant ones ended up acting flamboyant to fit in with the others. Not a big fan of that.

Also, regarding evolution, we should remember that the theory is a gradual process of keeping good traits and leaving off the undesirable ones. It doesn't necessarily mean the undesirable ones don't occur (extra fingers, really short people, politicians, etc).

Uh-hu...

I think you'll find its called living in denial; the exact reason why some men get married to a woman, have kids, but then run off with another man because they just couldnt live with pretending to be straight. It isnt a lifestyle choice, nor is it a conscious decision to be different; you dont seriously think that bum-sex is appealing to a straight man, just because he fancies something new, different?

Seriously, you guys should try actually talking to some homosexuals and finding out why they lead the lifestyle that they do- if it feels 'right' and 'natural', then who are we to judge or jump to conclusions that its just them trying not to fit in or that its against imaginary friends/God's will.

Pfft, please...

I have nothing to hide, if a guy wants to fancy a glance at me then go for it. Women size each other up more than men do. Trust me my wife will more than likely always notices an extremely good looking woman before I do, or huge boobies. She is not a lesbian.

Guys do it too, I showered at the gym when I had a membership, when your not trying so hard not to look at anything, try watching. You'll be surprised at how much others, straight or gay, look around for the one eyed snake.

I think men have developed a certain mental problem over the years. We have formed a stupid mental condition that does not allow us to allow other men to notice us. Women compliment each other all the time, regarding just about anything. Ever tried telling a guy he looks good. Take note of the response. Hell I envy Brad Pitt, I think his personality and style, combined with good looks and such make him a really good looking attractive man. Does that last comment make me gay?

Personally I think alot of factors go into how a person acts in society whether being gay, homicidal etc. Genetics and biology certainly play a roleas everyone is "wired" differently. Think about people who are really smart and able to make scientific discoveries. Then there's ADD, ADHD, those with anger issues. These factors are sometimes biological and can lead to the increased "possibility" of certain behaviors. Is there a gay gene? Maybe not, but certain biological factors mixed with that persons social environment may have something to do with it.

Back to the Dont ask don't tell policy. The simple fact is, homosexuality in the military is (or can be) a distraction. There's no room for distractions while protecting this country. There are those in this country (and serving in the military) who believe homosexuality is an abomination and will do anything they can to stop it and spread their view. An openly gay person in their unit would be a distraction to them and as a result, to others in the unit also. Then there's possible hazing, constant verbal threats/abuse, physical confrontation, etc. Considering those factors, one could argue it's to protect the gay service person too. It's unfortunate that the law puts gays "back in the closet", but it's the way it is.

One thing I don't agree with is a service person being discharged when they're found out to be gay. Especially when that person is of higher rank or a career soldier. If they are good enough to earn higher ranks or comitted enough to be career, just transfer them to another base.

Looking at others doesn't make you gay, but the desire to look at other men's junk might mean you have some reflecting to do. lol (Don't take offense, I'm just trying to keep things light.) It's one thing to notice, it's another to look on purpose.

I might think a woman is attractive, but it's not appropriate for me to stare at her goods in respect to her own privacy. I have nothing to hide either, but there is nothing wrong or self-conscious about respecting privacy about your own body or others'.

I am going to have to defend gays here for a second. How are they a distraction? Are they going to be having anal sex on duty? Or misplace their rifle with a double sided dildo?

Like you said the only distraction is the person who takes it wrongly, and in that case they become the distraction over the gay.

Sorry in advance if the examples I used are a bit over the edge.

Easy solution, have a whole company/ squad or whatever of gays, then there will be no distractions or arguments/ confrontations etc. They could call themselves Easy company or The Pink Panthas :lol:

I am somewhere in the middle between evolution and a 'god believing' person, but feel that both are fundamentally flawed, more so with religion... so maybe we aren't so different in our view points afterall, as we may have previously thought Texas. :smile: I dismiss religion as dangerous and is a sort of 'perversion' of God or the 'Universe' I like to call it now, word God has been far over used, abused, and has no meaning now, IMO. I think we are the Universe in 'expression', not seperate, but one, and the Universe is "energy and consciencenous". That is one thing that I think that many scientists can agree with. On the part of evolution, it is the means by which the Universe is expressed. Anyways, enough blabbering on my part, i'm sure none of you want to hear it.


Back to topic,
Look at history, when have we had more gays in our society than now? Look at other countries, what countries have significantly more gays than other? There is something at play here that is not merely geographical or genetic. Take Iran for example, not going to start a debate on the matter, but they don't really have much of any gay/lesbian people there at all, whether you support their society lifestyle or not, it is exactly that, an issue of society/lifestyle, the way a country is run, the food they eat, the media they watch, education they receive, religious influence,etc, etc. I really think it is a choice of the individual based on these influences through and through, nothing more.

Hahaha...I live in Sydney & find these discussions pretty funny. Sydney is a very accepting place to live

Human sexuality is a broad spectrum that can't be defined as this or that because the reality isn't that way at all. Sure more gay people choose to live more openly these days...might have something to do with not being publicly persecuted (although I'm sure it still happens a lot, especially in smaller communities)

I've had gay neighbours, work with gay people, have very good friends who are. I also accept that there's many other people I know who's sexuality is different again...doesn't really bother me. I prefer to look at the person rather than who they may choose as a partner of the experiences the may have wanted to have

That was the point. I'm sure the gay person isn't going to be the one causing the problem. I'm sure they are just there to serve and won't be oogling or making passes at any of their fellow soldiers. I'd assume most aren't the flamboyant type either. Its the reaction of others to the fact that person is gay, that will cause the problem.

Predicting that reaction is almost impossible also, given the wide array of people who serve. It could be anything from nothing, to not inviting them to a strip club, jokes about them behind their back or otherwise, taunting, sabotage, to violence. Another major concern for the military, especially for those on tour, is morale. Because even if everyone "tolerates" openly gay persons serving, if their reaction is still jokes and taunts, the morale of more than one person can suffer. Those who support the gay person or just intervene, may come under attack too. Whether its a physical attack or not morale still suffers.

I'm not saying this will happen. But there are people in this country taking their grade school children to anti-gay rallies and teaching them various slurs to speak into TV cameras, so it certainly could.

I could give a frak what gay people want to do (or anyone else for that matter.) If they want to join the military, by all means please do. Goes the same for marriage. You want to do it, you're an adult, you're not forcing people into it, and you are not directly hurting anybody, then you should be able to enjoy all the freedoms everyone is entitled to in the country.
Discriminating against somebody is an invitation for yourself to be discriminated against imo.

As far as evolution and nature/nurture goes;
Sure, there is a lesbian chic and metro dude thing going on now, and there are some people who turn to the same sex after suffering abuse, but I don't think that constitutes the majority of the gay population. Truth is being gay sucks. Who wants to chose to be a social outcast and not being able to live openly and having freedoms restricted?
Homosexuality has been found throughout history is prevalent in all the cultures I know of, even very repressive ones that. Just week from the African nation of Malawi:
"A judge in Malawi has imposed a maximum sentence of 14 years in prison with hard labour on a gay couple convicted of gross indecency and unnatural acts.

The judge said he wanted to protect the public from "people like you"."

Strict laws in Kenya, Egypt, Iran, and Uganda is threatening to make it a capital crime. Yet gay populations persist. Why would anyone choose this?
I knew a kid from HS that ended up hanging himself as he was gay, didn't want to come out, and hated himself (as he wrote in his suicide letter.) F'd up man.

Evolution does not disprove gayness, as there are a lot of inherted traits and genetic expressions that are directly harmful to an individual's fecundity, but are conserved as the trait provides an advantage of the group. IOW, evolution is not limited by the boundaries of our imagination.

Take menopause for example. Women begin to have chances of birth defects rise exponentially from the age of ~30, where by 40, chances of failed pregnancies or abnormal children is likely. If evolution only played on individual fitness, then this trait should not persist. However, it may be more advantageous for the group for this individual female to stop her own reproduction an instead function as a matriarch or other role than is more beneficial to the group, even tho at her own expense.

Basically one needs to be very careful in assigning evolutionary directives or causes to traits or behaviors, as it depends on a limited human understanding of the genetic interactions and selection forces, which is often beyond our ability to easily comprehend.

14000 servicemembers have been dismissed under DADT btw. That's a lot of patriotic gay people.

One thing I don't agree with is that gay/lesbian couples can adopt or have kids (unless the child was born from a "normal" relationship before they turned/decided/found out to be gay). It's one thing to live one's life the way they want, but to subject the kid to "gay bias" while growing up is another. Comes down to what is "biologically correct". Again, this is just my opinion...

Completely agree with that. That should not be allowed at all.