Libya's Violent Rebellion & other ME revolutions
 

I'm sure you all have watching the historic revolts in the ME, this the lastest wave of revolt in Libya. Gadhafi's has responded violently, but using airplanes, heavy weaponry, and african mercs to attack and kill protesters, in great contrast to what was seen in Tunisia and Egypt.

Should the rest of the world (really US/Europe) intervene to protect the protesters fighting and dying for freedom?

Personally not so hot into putting US troops on the ground (we have enough probs as is, and it's important for these revolutions domestic grassroots efforts) but seems like the west could/should enforce a no-fly zone and ramp up pressure on Libya. Italy is just across the Med, and likely in easy reach of western airbases. Two Libyian jets have already defected to Italy, as well as a number of Libyian diplomats are revolting.

I don't think we should intervene in the affairs of other countries, otoh we should hold to our ideals promoting freedom and democracy across the world, esp in the face of brutal dictators, with a history of terrorism (Lockerbie bombing) and WMD production.

We should be on the right side of history on this, and would seem a failure of western ideals to just stand by and let a murderer continue to plunder and repress his country when the entire region in on the cusp of a historic transformation (into what exactly we shall see.)

US Foreign policy: You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

If we step and help out either side, everyone will be mad at us for interfering.
If we don't do anything, everyone will be mad we didn't try to save lives.

I think it's time we wash our hands of people who don't have our interests in mind. Every time we intervene in the middle east to try and change the way they work it bites us in the butt. If we have an issue with someone I say we handle militarily if necessary but do it as "get in, get out, and be on our way" type routine.

In most of the cases it seems your are trading AIDS for colon cancer with a dose of herpes in the mix.

The middle east has had issues long before the US existed and will continue to have issues.

As you said, we should be taking more care of our own problems before traipsing off helping (or maybe harming) other countries.

But, if we do get called to go somewhere, I think it should be under these conditions:

1: All other countries under the UN should be required to lend equal support as well. The amount from each country should be defined by the "real" wealth of the country. I get tired of reading how other people hate the US because we always stick our nose in where it doesn't belong (in their opinion). At least if the work is spread around equally, those people can hate everyone equally.

2: If we do get called in, we go in, do what needs to be done, and get the hell out! Things just take wayyyy too long IMO. Personally, if a country needs help for more than, say 5 years, chances are something isn't being done right and staying there longer won't help.

3: Countries we help should return the favor somehow whether it be money, trade, etc. Although this last item could be waived for natural disasters since it's no one's fault.

This is true and can be found in one of the oldest history books....the Bible, Koran, you get the idea.

I really wish we would mind our own business, its costing us too much money, and frankly we cant really afford it. I know it may sound bad to you guys in other countries, but I say USA comes first....in every aspect.

+1 :yes:

Sorry, no aid from us. If they cant work it out themselves, let their dollar tank.
Now if it's in OUR best interest to invest a few 1000lb stealth delivered hay makers :whistle:

But what would happen to the world economy if we do nothing? I for one hope the world economy would tank, just cause I am sick of all the bleeding heart liberals. In fact, lets send them to fight the wars and the rest of us can just watch them fail.

I agree that we need to worry more about america and less about everyone else. I think the world is look at america like a saftey net, and they will keep on doing stuff expecting us to roll in and throw money at them to fix it. We need to stop that. I say we go back to the wars that ended with the winner owning everything the loser had. Land, animals, stuff, people (gonna get in trouble for that!), everything. At least we would have something to show for all of the trouble and money spent...

Really they should just be left to their own. Western ideals only work here, in the west. I cannot imagine the Libyans having anything we need, or that they are buying a ton of stuff from us... Let them go and it will work itself out. Democracy and capitalism is not for everyone, check out Korea...

OIL....:whistle:

The US does need to modify its foreign policy & in the process make some decisions about where it positions itself in a rapidly developing world. The previous administrations self inflicted wounds will take a long time to heal

Australian & the US are allies; we have a long history together & outwardly share a common goal. There is however a sense of dread among average Australians each time the US take on a new 'foe' & call on its allies to support the cause. This support has in some instances been called for in no small part to add credibility to the strategy...like with Iraq. The UN weren't campaigning for that war...a war with an outcome that was predictable & not popular globally that we are all still suffering the outcomes of. Perspective is another issue. If you hear the internal rhetoric often enough maybe you believe the conflict (whatever it may be) is honourable & justified? - I don't know because I don't hear it at the same volume - but different cultures & societies have different priorities. To assume that if another country doesn't share yours then they are unworthy or worse is extremely poor judgment regardless of where you are

The position the US finds itself in (deserved or not) a lot of the time is the global bully...there are a lot of countries who would love to beat up the global bully. Some of these countries may have the interest & the ability in coming years.... it would be prudent for the US to develop a more diplomatic foreign policy. The fortunes of the global economy no longer rely as heavily on the US, there are different drivers now. With all respect the US economy is down the toilet & in recovery mode. Look at China, India etc they heavily influence the global economy & have an increasingly large stake on how consumers like the US are participating

PBO, previous and current administrations have screwed the pooch, Obama has plenty of blame on himself too. Of course he fumbles foreign policy like a retarded squirrel on crack so hey.

As far as the UN is concerned, when they start pulling equal share from all countries and stop getting most of their funding from the US then they can speak, otherwise the UN and all involved can stick it. Besides, the prime real estate they occupy in New York City could be put to better use.

I have lost all tolerance for people continually demanding our help and then telling us how to do it and in the next breath bashing us for all they don't like.

As far as the allies go, they are their own country and can readily say no. If the individuals in said country don't like it, let your government know. I can't recall that the US forced any country into joining with us.

In regards to the middle east, the only interest we have in them is oil, and they act like the only kid at the playground who has a baseball with it. Fine, we can move on and explore here. Will it be tough, yes, but it will be worth it.

Meanwhile we can bring our troops home and let them enforce border security and help deport all the illegal freeloaders sucking cash out of our economy.

It's all win win as far as I am concerned.

I'm not sure who you think is continually demanding US help but this type of statement perpetuates the stereotype that the US would be smart to dissolve

The US can ill afford to be the world's police! Time for "US" to take care of and mind our own business.

Bingo, lots of it. Oil just broke $100 today, first time since the econ crash in 2008. Kadafi hasn't even set the fields on fire yet. I think as much as we'd like it not to be, what goes on in the rest of the world effects us here regardless of what we do (as well those in other countries.)

I guess my opinion comes weighs on two points. Its important for the US to maintain influence and credibility in the world. Benefits politics and business. Esp as an undemocratic China, who freely make resource deals w/ 3rd world dictators, is on the rise and exerting increasing influence in the region. Kadafi had been turning to Russian and Chinese oil firms as of late as political disputes with the Eu and US have gone on (like the Swiss ban on mosque minarets last year.)

The west wants to be on the good side of the people that will rule this region after the revolts end.
I don't think (hope) it will go unforgotten that it was US & western technology (Facebook/twitter/youtube) along with free press that helped end the dicatorships, and nowhere did you see the Chinese govt calling on the dicators to stop killing their people and give them more freedoms.

Also, I think as the region gains more freedom, freer economies, and more prosperity, certain members will calm down and leave us the F alone and stop blaming us for their problems. I prefer a "help them help themselves" approach. Being broke and unemployed makes people pissed off and crazy, no matter where you are.

Time will tell.

Ain't that the damned truth! ;)

It's the fact that the UN and countries involved continually demand US involvement (specifically our money). It's not a stereotype but a reality.

I am fine with the US staying out of other peoples business when it does not directly affect us, I just want others to stop asking for aid and support as well.

I also have family in Australia and do not gather from them that the entire consensus is so anti US and how we operate as suggested. This is from native Australians and others who moved there from here.

People like to make remarks against the US with wide brush strokes in regards to opinions about us and so forth with out evidence to back this up. Same thing in regards to China where I have business contacts, friends, and relatives. The way the Chinese government operates in regards to it's relationship with the US does not reflect the populous by large.

I just can't help but find it ironic how some of the most vocal anti US rhetoric comes from countries who a) have gained much from us and b) have some pretty major issues of their own to reconcile.

The old line in the Middle East referencing our relationship with Israel as the issue causing us so much grief is rather dishonest at best. The Middle East as I stated earlier has been having issues with the world long before Israel was made a new state in the last century and certainly long before the US even existed.

The fact is the can't even get along with themselves at the smallest level.

It's fine with me to move out of these areas completely. We will protect our interests and borders and when we have a perceived threat we deal with it and move on. After all, we don't need to set up governments for other nations, they can figure it out on there own.

Of course mark my words what will happen when we move our military out of foreign countries completely, because only then will the real rhetoric begin.

I say we just turn the whole place into a glass factory. Everyone has made valid points, but we aren't going to ever get anywhere with this.

Jeff

Then we can freely pump all the crude we want and bring the prices down to $20.00 per barrel as it should be.

Next would be those damn pirates. Just do them like the Russians did.

Jeff

Chances are we'll never agree on much of this & I don't mind if we don't, it's good to have varied opinions

Let me make a few points though;

The single biggest 'peace keeping' expense the US has had to deal with recently is the Iraq War. The US ignored the UN & assembled the "coalition of the willing" & pushed on regardless...nobody was demanding this in the way you are implying. Yes the coalition was 'willing' but it's reasonable to assume smaller countries were both supporting an ally (US) + following the US as a strategic move for future protection from the US should they need it. Additionally, if you consider many of the grumblings listed here relate to the cost of 'peace keeping' then that can't be attributed solely to the US trying to support the UN

The UN does engage peace keeping forces (generally speaking) to support UN efforts. This is done at a largely sustainable level by the US like many other UN countries. If costs attributed to the UN are 'means tested' I suspect the US may not always be as hardly done by as many might think. The US is a very, very wealthy country

I didn't suggest anyone demanded the war with Iraq, although no one forced any other country to become involved. My point was how people want us to continually help them (ie: send money and aid) yet b&m about everything we do.

As far as the UN is concerned sorry but I don't feel we need their permission or blessing for anything we do. I personally believe the UN has passed any usefulness it ever had and needs to move it's operations off US soil and find it's financial support elsewhere. Just look at who the UN has allowed on the Human Rights Council to see one of many points of why I do not support them. I also tire of putting up with Russia and there crap, they are not a friend or ally and never will be. Don't trust them and never will. There is a good number of my fellow citizens who would agree on these points.

We are a wealthy country, however our supplies are tapped and it's time we get ourselves out of debt and stop allowing our politician's to piss our futures down the drain. Our national and state debt has surpassed our GNP which is ridiculous. Government has no business getting into that kind of debt. In fact I believe most debt is unnecessary and our governments should be pay as you go not tax as you want to spend it. Of course I also don't believe our rights are given to us by government but that we are born with them.

Unlike many, I am an issues focused person and don't sway to one party or the other based on some odd sense of loyalty. I have no interest in the extreme left or extreme right as both are more about power than anything. How they want to take it is the only big difference but the fact is they want to take it. I lean heavily libertarian in many ways and want a whole lot less government involvement in everything.

Not forced. Coerced, compelled, threatened - they are more appropriate

George Junior & his admin said that countries were either with the US or against, this is a strong, aggressive & devisive statement. Along with that current & future trade deals etc all hung in the balance for those countries sitting on the fence. It's far from an invitation

I find your own opinion "As far as the UN is concerned sorry but I don't feel we need their permission or blessing for anything we do" ironic & if I assume you are an average thinking US citizen then doesn't that validate my original point that the US needs to work on it foreign policies? any other country that expressed that sentiment would be labelled as all things bad by the US

Yeah, it was tough talk and part of propaganda. However, what did we do to those that didn't come along? That's right, nothing. You make it sound as if we would have nuked someone had they not have joined us. If I recall correctly most countries did little more than give token support with very few exceptions. Of course these same countries in turn wanted more than a token's amount of the benefits received from the invasion as well.

If you analyze the war in total many foreign businesses got some pretty sizable contracts out of the deal. Take Turkey for example who made a amount providing logistic services alone.

Of course others condemned us out of one side of their mouth but also had no problem bargaining for contracts as well and reaping other benefits. Some have even made quite lucrative careers for themselves being US bashing aficionados.

For more information in regards to this I recommend checking out ww.Stratfor.com which is a strategic geo political analyst group specializing in this type of information. They are also strictly non partisan and provide real world intelligence from all angles.

I feel every country can do their own thing without approval from the UN. I don't recognize the UN's power/authority over sovereign nations and neither should anyone. I don't see how it's ironic. Just because talking heads run their mouths about on situation or another doesn't necessarily reflect the populous at large. With Russia a major part along with all the little rogue nations full of hard core dictators I can't see why anyone would recognize that farce which is the UN.

I never said that other nations do and most people here don't believe they need our permission to do anything. However if another country is accepting money from us, then yes we have a right to have a voice in there actions when it can affect us. This is just like any investment. However, in reality I would prefer we not give money so freely to others and especially those that don't have our interests in mind.

On another note what is Australia doing in regards to foreign policy which is so much superior to ours? When I look closely it seems to me Australia has it's own fair share of issues facing it as well. I am just saying everyone loves to point and bash the US as it's quite the sport across the globe but what happens when it's pointed inward? It also seems to me as your suggesting that we should ask others permission before we make moves but others should not have ours? Maybe I am misreading this but it's how I took it.

I think in many ways you are assuming I support everything our government does. However, the point I am trying to make is that I want a whole lot less government involvement in everything period. I want a whole lot smaller government period. I am all for our government being less involved in cleaning up others messes and trying to police their activities. I also don't want foreign governments telling us how to run our borders and enforce our laws as our closest neighbors so like to do. Especially when they have benefited so heavily from our proximity to them.

We will sit on our continent and maintain a large and modern military here and if someone jacks with us or our interests we can take them out them come right back home. Kind of like how Jefferson handled events around Tripoli back in his time.

Nuked :lol: I was thinking more along the lines of trade reductions & economic harm rather than violence. It was a fairly crazy time, with a lot of media generated fear, governments needed to act for their people, demonstrate solidarity & maintain alliances. Difficult when there's a superpower doing all the tough talking

I wasn't neccessarily identifying the UN, there are a number of communities and alliances that consult each other before taking any action. Yes, this can slow the process down but often this is a good thing - a cooling off period if you like - & to be certain, I'm no fan of the UN either

Australia is a little US, we like to have our way in our region & we are the peacekeeper/policeman. We exercise tough border control policies (which are often election issues) that challenge human rights. We want our cake & the ability to eat it too

As a nation we are very generous on our own terms & aid to neighbouring nations is provided relatively unchallenged although I can't quote you figures. We encourage trade over our own borders but will protect our producers & manufacturers (certain industries will say otherwise) to retain domestic industry & supply. We are selling off assets to foreign companies & countries faster than we realise or want to

We consider ourselves an ally of the US, UK etc and will engage globally as an ally. We are fearfull of some of our large neighbours like Indonesia & we enjoy the brownie points we earn as an ally

We consider ourselves as more egalitarian than not & get confused about a nagging sense of entitlement and our pragmatism. However we sleep soundly knowing we are a resouce rich country so one day that pile of dirt will be worth something if it isn't now

We are very defensive over our mate New Zealand although we hate it when they beat us in sport - bloody Kiwis. We will always help a mate & prefer to fix our own problems

Come on, you know better than to pay attention to the media. They're all flash-bang and sensationalism and nothing more. I put little stock in media in general. It's always read between the lines and wondering what the rest of the story is in addition to the real story.

I'll address more a little later when not in a hurry.

Hey, but we still love each other right?! :na: :lol:

Haven't you heard?
 

Hey haven't you heard? After pouring billions upon billions of US $$$$$ into Iraq and suffering losses in the thousands for our troops Iraq is now demanding that we pay them for clean up and recovery of their capital city, since of course we have decimated everything in support of their search of freedom. They are also now putting together law suits to demand that we compensate their family losses as well. This is why we need to pull everyone back and stop helping everyone else solve their issues. The only country I have seen show any sort of gratfulness for our support has been Korea since the Korean war. Of course the new younger generation has little feelings in the way of sentiment for us.

The situation in Libya is dismal at best. Momar is an aging idiot who has begun showing his a$$ once again stating that he will kill everyone in Libya and burn their oil fields before he gives up his command of the country. What a Moron. The days for that type of leadership were over hundreds of years ago. The people uprising against these tyrant leaders is long overdue. Rise up and smash these idiots and move for better times.

Yeah Jerry, the Iraq thing is annoying. Shows you liberating a country from madmen really doesn't benefit you at all... eventually they will fall by themselves.

I have mixed feelings... good to see the common people uprising, demanding freedoms, etc. Bad in that it exposes potential for extreme muslim left to take over.

Valid concern, case in point...Iran!

Exactly... went from pro-democracy movement to extremism.

The media are part of the strategic thinking for countries, politicians etc you can't escape that & that's the context I was using my comment. Whether you or I believe the media or not doesn't matter...it's the majority of the population that matters & unfortunately most of them will

Yes, of course we still love each other. Nothing wrong with spirited discussions :mdr:

In many respects the world needs the US to take a more high brow approach to the changing world. If the US does lose it's standing there will be a power vacuum of sorts & that's definitely not in any Western countries interests - nor for the rest of the world

History shows all great empires ultimately tumble. If we consider the US a modern empire, a few more generations of stability would be nice!