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Any Car Audio Gurus Out There?
I have a silly old 2001 KIA Sportage... the stock speakers are absolute awful... and there's only two speakers (Passenger Door & Driver Door), so replacing both shouldn't be as expensive as I've thought. (Oh yeah, I have some in the trunk, two).
Since this would be pretty budgetary, any quick suggestions? I'd like to just replace the speakers alone, and not complicate things with a new amp.. I just want a bit more bass and some more highs... I'm not going for any audio competitions, just want some more to make it not sound like I'm listening to scratch... Obviously, keeping a stock amp would be pretty limiting, but I think that's fine. I have a rather new radio deck.. |
Speaker upgrade will make a HUGE (like as big as bondo's ass) difference.
I would go with a decent coaxial speaker (tweeter mounted in the middle). Do not go overboard, I would think you can scorre some decent speakers for about 30-40 a pair. Or maybe alot less, I have not priced car audio recently. Do not go with big power handling speakers, as they will likely need more than your amp can push. Just about any aftermarket speaker with a plastic cone and a seperate tweeter will be light years ahead of the stock paper cone speaks. I bet you have a walmart or similar that will have some cheap off brand speakers real cheap. Or hit up ebay, etc... Crutchfeild.com will have a chart or something to tell you the speaker size. As for added bass, well a powered 8"-10" sub will be the best bet. Many will allow you to just tap into existing speaker wires for signal. Do you have the factory head unit (cd paler, tape deck, 8track, etc)? Or an aftermarket unit? Yeah, I just asked you about your unit, live with it. |
Sweet!
I was actually just doubting the difference between stockers and just fairly new upgraded ones. I wanted to keep cost down a bit, and I'm also thinking about pushing this back until my summer savings goal is hit (bumped it up another 1k with my new hours & on-site pay raise). How much would you recommend limiting the power to each speaker to be? I'm looking at some 50W speakers, specifically these: http://www.crutchfield.com/p_130TSA1...4R.html?tp=105 http://www.crutchfield.com/p_130TSD1...2R.html?tp=105 I have little to no idea what any of the ratings on speakers are, so if you could throw out some recommendations based on the ratings? Obviously, I'd pick them up elsewhere than crutchfield, seeing as they are much more expensive on crutchfield. Trying to limit myself to 40-50 for a pair, times 2 (two in the trunk cargo, two in the front). Also... definitely don't want to blow out my amp.. don't need to go dropping some billz on dat. Until I can go run out and look at the deck, it's a Sony Xplod, the red (if it matters) LED'd model, one with Aux input but no USB output/input. |
If you turn the bass level down (0 or negative) do the stock speakers sound okay?
Usually people turn the bass up, and door speakers just physically are not large enough to produce good bass, so the sound distorts and the highs are effected because they are coming out of the same speaker. Even the best door speakers won't produce much bass, again, they are too small. I would start with a 8" or 10" sub. (powered is easiest, they are cheap on ebay) Turn down the bass on the radio so the front speakers are only playing mids and highs (what they were designed for) and use the level control on the amp or powered sub to set the correct bass level. Any aftermarket door speakers will be way way waaaay better than the stock units, but you mentioned wanting bass, and you just can't get any decent bass without a subwoofer. Also, rear speakers won't help you in the drivers seat at all. Rear speakers are for rear passengers. You'd be best off getting a sub, then if the highs still aren't enough replace the front speakers. Stock speakers can usually play quite loud if you don't send bass to them. Better yet, if your deck has crossovers use them and completely eliminate any bass information from going to the speakers. Subs are for bass. Bass needs subs. |
Hmm, I think I may have bass turned up a tad bit.
So I should spend some money on a powered sub and front speakers if I want more mids/highs, rather than drop some money on the cargo speakers? I'm super lost on the powered subs.. Suggestions? Would I need to designate a space for such? I'm sure I could toss it in the back cargo. |
u pull it or pick a part
you can get some out of some thing with a better sound sys that will fit you car for cheap or go to walmart I think I paid 60$ http://www.walmart.com/ip/Pioneer-TS...akers/17217905 I got the same ones in my integra gsr and sounds good not the best no amp 50w Pioneer deck
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Yeah, your front speakers sound like crap because you are trying to play bass through them and they are distorting. Eliminate the bass playing through them and they will be able to play mids and highs much better.
The sub can go anywhere. Bass is non-directional. Just throw it in the cargo area, but strap it down somehow, things move around a lot under hard braking/cornering. You mentioned wanting bass, and you just won't get any appreciable bass from door speakers. And your mids and highs will greatly improve if you don't run bass to the door speakers. I'm trying to give you the best bang for your buck. You will get way way waaay better mids and highs if you replace the door speakers, but you will still not get any decent bass with them. You need subs for bass. A powered sub is a nice all in one solution for bass. It consists of a subwoofer, enclosure and amplifier all in one unit. Here is a darn good one that is pretty cheap http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Pyle-PLT...ht_3425wt_1165 Some people will say the "pyle" brand are junk, but I assure you they work well. It's just not a super name brand like alpine. If you only want better mids and highs, get door speakers, but you will still have no bass. Adding a sub and turning down the bass to the door speakers will give you bass and better mids and highs. If you can swing it, get door speakers and a sub!:yes: Adding rear speakers will not help your mids and highs. Mids and highs are very directional, and unless you can see the speaker from where you sit you will not hear it well. Most of the sound from rear speakers is absorbed or reflected off the rear seat. |
Hmm, you seem to have sold me, paralyzed!
Powered sub only, for now, it is! Until then, I will lock the adjustments in. Should I zero everything out to be 0 balanced? Any other bass recommendations? Really liking just a powered sub... maybe cheaper would be cooler, but don't want anything super cheap. |
Anything cheaper than the pyle I linked to would be super cheap and shady. Pyle is inexpensive but quality.
A similar bazooka tube (high end) would be $300+ Do you have the owners manual for the cd player? If it has built in crossovers you can use those to completely eliminate any bass from going to your front speakers. (recommended) You can find a manual online if you don't have one. If you don't have crossovers I recommend setting the bass to zero, and do whatever you want with the highs. If you do have crossovers, you don't need to turn the bass level down, because the deck is already blocking the bass for you, but you'll have to set that setting. What's the decks model number? I'll take a look and be able to give you better advice. |
Interesting..
Would love it if you could take a quick look. Pyle will be added to my to-do list! Sony Xplod CDXGT25MPW How's the setup for the powered sub? Whattup with this little guy? http://www.walmart.com/ip/Bazooka-BT...ube-6/13812423 |
that sub you linked to is passive (non-powered) you would also need an amplifier to power that sub.
I'll look at the owners manual and report back.... |
okay, so your head unit has crossovers!:party: It shows how to set the crossovers on page 10-11 of the "operating instructions" manual- http://esupport.sony.com/US/p/model-...ls#/manualsTab
I'd set the HPF (high pass filter) to 100hz. A high pass filter electronically filters the bass out of the information being sent to the speakers. This is way better than just turning the bass down to make your mids/highs perform better. Using a HPF completely eliminates the bass, so you can still use the radio controls to turn the bass up and down, and not worry about distorting your front speakers. Earlier I was telling you to "turn the bass down". That's a rude/amateur way to make your fronts sound better. Using an HPF is the proper way to keep the bass away from the fronts. To install a powered sub you will need a good size power cable going from your battery to the sub. You also need an RCA cable and a remote turn on lead running from the back of your deck to the sub. You also need to find some good solid unpainted metal to use as a ground for the sub(somewhere in the cargo area) For someone who's done it, it's no big deal. If you've never done it, it can be intimidating. But it's easy... Figure out how much time/work/money you want to invest in better tunes. Adding a sub is certainly a lot more work than just replacing door speakers, but the sound will be way better. I tend to kind of ramble, but I'll help you figure this out! Keep shooting me questions and I'll keep answering. If you have specific questions that need a specific answer number them for me, it helps to keep me from rambling on... |
No problem, I like rambles!
They tend to briefly cover things I didn't know about.. What exactly are the crossovers, I know that it will cut the bass from going into the fronts, but is it a physical connection I need to make- or just a setting? From the manual, it looks like I just turn HPF to 100mhz and yay...? What's the guage of the wiring I should run from the battery to the sub? Sounds kind of hectic if I'm trying to hide a rather thick wire through the firewall through the door sills (probably), and into the back.. The unpainted metal isn't an issue, there's lots of it behind the trim panels. I turned down the bass like you said (I knew it would distort a lot when I set everything up long ago, but didn't think it'd do it that much), and the fronts don't distort as badly anymore. It's still up in the air if I want to drop some more money on this car.. or if I should just keep saving... It's not much of an issue to be honest, just something that would be awesome to have. |
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Thanks for that linc... I was eating lunch
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No problem, I do understand that lunch is the #1 cause of sneaky farts. Glad I could help.
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That looks delicious! :party:
Anywho, how would I know how much I could push the powered sub, until it'd do something bad to my existing stereos? In real english.. how high can I go with my current setup? |
Some other guys on a different forum recommended this particular sub:
http://www.frys.com/product/6388611?...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG Said he used it himself and seems to like it.. How's it compare to the Pyle? Seems like the Pyle is specced better? Also seems to get excellent reviews on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Dual-SBP8A-Sin...rds=DUAL+SBP8A About $100 shipped from fleabay/other stores.. I'm limiting myself to $100 for the sub, maybe $15 or so for the wiring should be good? |
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The one I linked to will probably play a little louder and will have better sound quality, but it takes more room. The one you linked to is nice and small, but bandpass enclosures have the worst sound quality of any subwoofer enclosure. You also have to remember sound is just moving air. Bass requires lots of air to move. That's why little door speakers can't produce good bass. I linked you to a 10" woofer, you linked to an 8". The 10" will obviously move more air (more bass). I'd measure the cargo area and determine how much room you have. With bass, bigger is always better, but you still need to be able to use your vehicle. |
Gotcha, I think I'll probably be struggling at connecting the remote turn on wire to the stereo head unit & RCA cables..
Are they clearly labeled? I took a quick look at the manuals on the Sony Support Site, and can't seem to find them being color coded... Colors are so much easier! Do I splice into the sub/remote on wire or is there a connection waiting to be used? |
The remote wire will be blue coming out of the radio. I may be labled anenna remote.
Rca will be red and black. On the sub it does not mater which way you plug them in as the amp will bridge the channel inputs. |
What guage should I be looking at for the dedicated power to the amp?
Looking at 8GA for +12V/-12V, remote turn on wire (is this a special wire? Could I just use regular speaker wire?), and some RCA cables (same with this, regular RCA or special?) I know at work, we have a huge roll of speaker wire we used for about 15ft for a project.. and we have never needed it since.. I could probably grab about 10ft of it to use on the remote turn on wiring? In the other forum, a member who used this exact sub bought a few ft of regular power extension cord, and wired it that way. I feel like this is a really good idea since people are familiar with regular household plugs, and would be able to unplug/plug really easily, in the case that it gets knocked off/whatnot.. In the case that I'm not around to "fix" it. Though, Anderson PowerPoles, I already have.. and would be a quick and easy way to do it. Basically, I'd like for it to be easily removed in case I need the extra cargo space. Also, it'd make it really easy to transfer to another car (when this thing dies). Any suggestions on the sources of wiring? I feel that I'm most scared/worried for the head unit installation.. Ripping apart my entire dash sounds annoying. EDIT: any suggestions for a ported sub? Debating between the Pyle (Sealed) and DUAL (Bandpass).. so now I'm at a lost of words. Ported seems to be the king of boomy bass, so maybe that might be what I'm after? |
The pyle I linked to is ported, the port is on the back, opposite of the woofer.
8ga. will be good for 12v+/-. Speaker wire will work great for the turn on lead. Any regular RCA cable will work. I feel extension cord might be on the light side, unless you get an 8ga. extension cord. Power Poles sound like a good idea for +/- connections. Get in there and rip that dash out and put in the head unit, it will be another skill you have and will be a learning experience. Most auto parts stores have wire available by the foot. |
Oh, did not know that.
Sweet, I was leaning towards Ported, anyways! Oh, that's true, plus I have a feeling if it were unplugged, and I had occupants messing around my car, they would test the extension cord and plug in a regular device. Since it's a sub, should I still separate the RCA/Sense cables away from the power ones? I've read that since it's mostly low frequency, the high frequency static won't matter much. I think I may just go to a hardware store and get wire there, sounds like it would be a lot cheaper. As far as RCA cables, I'll want male to male, right? Perhaps I can run speaker wire, and pick up RCA connector heads, and just have them as such. |
I'm no guru but I learned a lot when I installed my first real high end system.
To port or not to port; A unported sub box will not need as much power to be driven as a ported box so depending on the RMS capabilitys of the Amp this is going to help decide. A unported box will have a much tigher bass sound than a ported box as well so what your bass expectations are will dictate also. I had a professional build a unported box for my Jeep because I didn't want a huge speaker box taking up all the room in the back, I'm really glad I went this route because it sounds incredible. The sound of a unported box is way more universal if you listen to a wide variety of music, if you want lots of bass then ported is what you may want. |
I personally prefer a properly designed ported box with a suitably chosen driver. I like the sound better, generally has more audible output, and driver excursion is GREATLY reduced at lower frequencies (the sound is generated mostly by the port rather than driver excursion at the tuning frequency). However, it is VITAL to have a subsonic filter when using a ported box!! Below the port frequency, the port is just a hole in a box and doesn't limit driver movement at all. That, and output drops precipitously (-24db/octave IIRC) below port tuning frequency. Have to use the right size port too or you'll get "chuffing" noises. You can use dual ports or a single larger port, but keep in mind the larger in diameter, the longer the port needs to be for a given frequency.
A sealed box can go deeper and tends to have a flatter response curve, but it takes 4x more excursion (and more power) for each drop in octave to get the same output. But, you can't just toss a driver in any old box you happen to have. The driver must be suited for ported or sealed or free-air or band-pass, and the designer must use the proper formulas based on the driver's Theille-Small parameters to design the proper box dimensions. The actual geometry of the box makes a difference too. A cube box will tend to be boomy. The reason most boxes have different size dimensions is to reduce standing-waves from multiplying inside the box. Then, you have to use proper materials. Whenever I built an enclosure, I use no less than real 3/4" thick MDF dado'd and glued into place. Then, fiberglass all the internal seams. I usually used a double layer for where the driver mounts to allow a flush driver installation. Then, use the right amount of poly-fill (makes the box seem acoustically larger). Don't be surprised to have a heavy box; my boxes (which were usually for a single 10" or 12" driver) weighed around 60-70lb by itself (without speaker). Wiring is not too tough if you take your time. Head unit wiring is MUCH easier if you just go get a wiring kit for your vehicle. That way you can just wire it all up outside the vehicle - the wiring kit color-code is the same as most head-unit color-code, so it's easy. Vehicles use all sorts of wire colors and I will say to properly identify each speaker and the proper speaker polarity can be a pain (isn't too bad if you know a few tricks though). Just get the kit and save yourself the headache. If a previous owner did the dumb thing and cut off the stock vehicle harness, you can get color codes from here: http://www.the12volt.com/ As far as amplifiers are concerned, size/wattage depends on the person. If you're a basshead, then no amp is big enough. But, if you're looking for decent sound, I generally go with 2-3x the power of the regular speakers. So, if your deck puts out 20w x 4 (rms, not "peak" - gotta read the specs carefully), I'd go with between 160w-240w rms power for the sub amp. Use a crossover on the main speakers to limit the bass (either use the "active" HPF in the deck, or use a "passive" 200uF non-polarized electrolytic cap in series with each speaker), and set the amp's LPF for around 100Hz or lower (the higher the LPF value, the more voices you'll hear out of the sub and you don't want that). For total amplifier power of 500w rms or less, 8GA power wire is adequate. Up to 1000w, use 4GA. Higher than that and you'd better know what you're doing. For subwoofer power, get a sub that will handle the value of the amplifier. It won't do any good to get a 1000w sub and hook it to a 100w amp - subs that large will likely be less sensitive and won't sound good with low power. It's also bad to run a 1000w amp on a 100w sub (obviously). However, if you do it right, they don't have to match exactly. I ran a 300w Alpine TypeR sub for several years on a 600w rms PPI amp (yeah, old school stuff) with no issues whatsoever. You just have to run it clean - no amp clipping and no mechanical distortion. All right, that's car audio 101 in a tiny nutshell. Probably more than you wanted to know, but there ya go. |
Why oh why are there soo many possibilities!
Brian, beside the custom build all the way, would you have any specific systems for about 115 all said and done? For the Pyle, does positioning matter? I was thinking of having the back/wire end going towards the backseat (where I assume the ported vent is at), and having the open/grill facing outwards. Another possibility would be having it perpendicular to the car, parallel with the backward where the port side is driver side and then grill would be passenger side? I'll give a butter knife a try and see how that goes.. But when I do get it out, will I need to splice into anything, or will everything already have connections? For the RCA..remote turn on? I believe I have RCA on the back, but the remote turn on? |
Thought about it some more, and thinking I'll just give the Pyle a try.
It should fit snugly in my back, I plan on putting it perpendicular to the car (parallel to the back seats, if that makes sense?), the "front grill" would pointing to the passenger side of the car, and the connections will be made from the driver side of the car. Will be going with KnuKonceptz 8GA wiring kit, I know it's a little overkill for this guy, but hey.. if I'm going to do it, might as well do it safely, and not risk burning up any wiring.. (http://www.amazon.com/KnuKonceptz-KC...ds=KnuKonceptz) As far as the Pyle source, thinking about nabbing the cheapest one to keep budget down, so: http://www.ebay.com/itm/PYLE-PLTAB10...item2c6612b1c2 This shouldn't be that bad, right? Hoping the install will be a breeze. How do I test the resistance of a ground point with a volt/multimeter? |
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Looked around a bit more, and read up some of the reviews on the Pyle PLTAB10..
A little disheartening. I bought the KnuKonceptz 8GA kit, and now just debating on the sub. Would there be a dramatic leap if I raised the budget up to say, about $120/130 from 100? Quote:
Cargo space is not that much of an issue, it's not like I go buy groceries, or anything. Most of the things I throw into the backseat, anyways. I'm leaning towards this one a bit more consdering the Amazon reviews it's gotten, 5 stars with 41 reviews! The Pyle has gotten 13 stars with 14 reviews, most of those reports saying that the sub hits are very little, if at all. However, it irks me that the DUAL is a bandpass, if only there were a ported version of the DUAL, that has the same excellent reviews for roughly the same price, I'd jump right on it. (I see a current website having the DUAL for $80 shipped, then FRYS will ship it for $90 shipped)... Any ideas/suggestions? I would love a ported box since those seems to the midway between tight and quiet, or loud boomy and shallow.. I'm not that big of an audiophile to be bugged out by the inaccuracy of the bass.. so I might be leaning towards the bandpass if no other option arises. |
Just finished the wiring portion, sub is coming tomorrow, I'm pumped!
The hardest part IMO was crimping the ring terminals on, since I don't have a proper crimper, I had to use a combination of pliers, vice grips, a flathead and a hammer.. Since I can't find our blowtorch, I ended up opting for a BBQ lighter and some solder to finish the ends.. I'm not sure it was too effective, but it seems to have melted in somewhat. I couldn't find the firewall grommet, but I did find a metal plate that was bolted onto the firewall that looked like a grommet was supposed to be there... so I drilled out the middle, filed it (somewhat), taped the inside with etape, and then found the KnuKonceptz grommet and ran the wire right through there. I feel much safer than before. I couldn't find the black tubing that was supposed to run along the firewall, so I ziptied it to a couple of mounts, and over a plastic-looking-thing.. hopefully it'll stay and stay cool. This is where I opted to put the wire loom (in the engine bay) since it'd at least give me a smell if something starts melting.... also to prevent insulation from burning away and shorting something out. Ran it under the sill plates, carpet, and then under the rear seats to come out like a snake directly into the cargo area, looks pretty good, but I need to trim the wires as the power line is a tad long. I plan on putting the fuse on top of the sub (I think it'd look the best), or on the back with sticky tape... Ran the ground to the fuel pump mount under the passenger rear seats. The head unit was sooo much easier than I expected, I actually only needed a screwdriver to press the springloaded tabs inward while I worked the head unit out.. Once out, I couldn't find the antenna, until I took out a trusty multimeter and tested the wires until I found the switched ground which I soldered directly into. Ran the RCAs and Remote on the passenger side and into the back. All the wires are ready for action tomorrow when the sub comes in, super pumped! Thanks for all the help, I'll let you know how it goes! |
Best place for the fuse is at the battery... If the wire ever gets worn through or cut, the fuse will blow.
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Yeah... I just remembered that, it's going to change first thing tomorrow morning!
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awesome, I hope it all works out for you! I love car audio.
I'm gathering components for the next system in my van, I just need the front component speakers. It will consist of an alpine cd player, 2 sets of mb quart component speakers in the front doors, 2 sets of infinity coaxials for rear fill, 4 jl audio 12w6 12" subs in 3 cubic foot ported enclosures (12 cubic feet of sub box!), a 1000 watt crossfire sub amp ran at .75 ohms for over 1200 watts, and a 4 channel crossfire amp for all the mids and highs. I will be heard for miles! I have always built systems for sound quality, this last system in my van will be all about loud, a literal rolling boom box. |
Got the sub in today, will be hooking it up in about an hour.
How do I finetune it? Quote:
Or can I leave them off and have the bass do all the work? Which Hz rating would work the best"? |
Set the HPF to 100Hz, and cranked level to about 30%, Phase midway (what does phase do..) and same with Frequency (and what does this do? :p)
Thing sounds awesome! Much better than before, and now I may have gotten the car audio bug, because I'm thinking about front speakers! Whenever a nice boomy song comes on, the sub definitely overdoes the speakers, so it's kind of hard to hear, I suspect just turning the level down will cure that.. Other than that, it's awesome! During installation, though, need to clean the wiring up, bad! Going to need to isolate each connection just for my peace of mind the way I drive. Also ,when I was finishing the install and pushing everything in the back, I crushed my seat down onto the RCA connector, and snapped one of them right into the socket. The center pin is now stuck in the sub, and the other channel is a little crooked, but works. I'm guessing I'll need to find a way to pull the pin out, and put on new RCAs (definitely). Going to see if I can find some 90degree ones.. |
Subwoofer phase helps to align when the sounds reach your ear to compensate for mismatched speaker placement between the sub and main speakers and usually affects frequencies near the HPF and LPF point. Without a real-time analyzer, it can be difficult to set properly. I would just keep it at 0 unless you can hear the difference.
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I'm glad you got it going and that you like the sound! I've been busy with my son so I haven't been online as much.
Be careful with the car audio bug, it can get expensive!:yes: |
Oh no....
So whenever we turn up the volume a little over 40ish, the speakers start to distort pretty nasty, but the sub keeps up just fine (and rocks, btw!). I'm now looking into grabbing some new speakers, but was curious what you recommended Harold? I know you're quite the guru so far.. Looking for something priced well, maybe budgeting myself to about $50 for 4? |
The "speakers" distorting could be one of two things; the amp is clipping sending a distorted signal to the speakers or the main speakers are getting too much bass signal and are moving beyond their mechanical limits. Either turn down the gain a little and/or turn the crossover so they get less bass (120-140Hz @ 12db/oct or 100-120Hz @ 24db/oct should be good).
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