A123 32113 Ultra-B cell, cycling so far
 

32113 M1 Ultra-B cell
180g.
4.4Ah
40C rated Cont. discharge
Considered a 'high power' cell

Just thought I would share how testing of this cell is going so far. I am manually cycling it through my 720i NET charger using 10amp (maximum 80watt/10amp) and a 20amp charge rate. Since the older 720i can only go down to 2.5v/cell on discharge (not sure on new ones) it will have to do, might only miss a few 10's of mah anyways...

So far, all I have to say about it is that it's a BRUTE of a little bastard(32113 little?) Pounding 20amps into it and it is just bagging for more, my guess it could handle 30+amps, judging by the cell iR and voltage fluctuation (very little). At 20 amps, there is roughly only 0.08 volts between ON and OFF current. Charger is reporting a 1-2 mohm cell iR, very nice. Check out the pics.

Notice how the cell will take 20amps charge rate all the way to 97% SOC (don't mind the 89% as the 720i miscalculates the SOC), after that the currents falls pretty damn fast too, doesn't mess around with too much time on CV stage, maybe 1 min out of the less than ~15 min charge.

Cycling is done under a 100% DOD. Currently on discharge cycle #85

photos 1-4

photos 5-8

photo 9

Since you have the cells and you started this thread then you are now obligated to find out what voltage these hold with a load of 150Ah. :yes: How hot they get also. Get to work :whip:

Hmm, I don't have a way to actively measure current above 10 amps besides my eagletree which I could try and find and rig it up for PC use. I would have to come up with a discharge source, maybe a steel rod comes to mind? I could use the hand clamp I am using now, compressing some copper mesh wire onto the cell ends, while using booster cables to make a lead to the discharge source, whatever it may be.

I will have to do some searching, I will try and make this happen though.

:yes:

I can't find my Eagletree for actual amperage rates, but...

I have been rigging up some discharge wire coils,first made out of 16 ga. wire, then I used to 12ga. wire to spread the heat out more. For the last test I did was 8 ft of 12ga. wire (0.013 Ohms load) wrapped around a 2" 1/16 aluminum tube for heat dissipation. I was using booster cables before for connection, but took them out of the equation, and instead soldered some bare 4ga. FLAT ribbon cable onto the wire and sandwiched two of them onto the cell terminals using the clamp you saw in the previous picture. I then made connection by clamping the two ribbon cables together using clamps.

Now, I only tested it for 32 seconds as the electrical tape on the wire coil was melting and burning pretty quick and things were heating up all around very fast, the cell, on the other hand, was warm, hitting 102 F after 32 seconds of discharge.

Discharge voltage was 2.75 volts instantly after I made connection, but quickly climbed to ~2.83+ volts for the entire discharge.

In those 32 secs. I discharged 1298mah (charger put thtat amount back in).

If you calculate the amperage rate using the discharge load in Ohms (0.013 Ohms), you get 215amps:

2.8volts / 0.013Ohm = 215 amps

But, if you go by the actual mah put back into the cell and multiply by 32 second discharge, you only get 146 amps:

32 sec / 60 = .53 mins x 60 min/hr. = 112.5 x 1.3Ah = 146 amps
Obviously, you have to go by the rough calculation of 146 amps.

To me, 146 amps @ 2.8 volts plus looks to be very nice for an A123, and I would hope to see a good number as the cell weighs 180grams for 4.4Ah.

I also did a quick calc, when charging the voltage increase ~0.06volts at 20amps, so going by that, 150A / 20A = 7.5 x 0.06 = .468 3.3volt cell subtract 0.468 = 2.83 volts, exactly what I saw when discharging.

2.8v x 4 cells = 11.2 volts..... at 150 amps, that would be able to start a small car engine I would think, damn near anyways.

I will look for the eagletree so we can get some real discharge tests going. I will also make a more robust discharge coil, one that won't melt and fall apart...:whistle:

Thank you very much for this, and like you said, the cell performed rather excellent. 146amps that's something like 33C for that cell which kept a pretty low temp. Where can we get those cells if you don't mind saying? Or maybe I should stop being such a lazy bastard and find it myself :whip: :lol:

Nice!!! I had been looking at those cells myself to use in something. But I never figured what that something could be.
Did you ever try those A123 32157 size cells?

Yeah, those are rough estimates, but should be within 5% I would say.

The ribbon cable I am using for cell connections are about 6 inches long and they get very hot pretty quick, after 10 seconds I can't hardly touch them. I thought I remember the package saying it was 6ga. or maybe 8ga. equivalent, so you would think it could handle the current no problem?

Have you guys checked my math by any chance? 8ft of 12 ga. cable is the discharge load, 0.013 Ohms.

Snell, I would like to buy one of those 32157 cells to test as well, should buy one soon. They don't make them anymore do they? Same with the 15Ah prismatic cell.

I think the 32113 is a very good dragster cell, maybe or maybe not for racing, but for drag racing where Power/weight is the name of the game. a 5s pack would do nice for a 20 min race in a truggy, but where to put them, and how to arrange them might be tricky. Might be better off using a 8s 26650 pack instead, 4s saddle on each side...

I believe that 123rc website still sells those various A123 cell formats. Dunno if they B-grade stuff though. That 32157 would be nice for a dragster, but I'm thinking more of a dragracing electric bike:yes::yes:

I think I should build me one heh.

FWIW, I would use an ammeter to accurately measure current. Calculating current by using resistance of a given gauge wire assumes that wire is exactly that gauge (and is that stranded or solid), and doesn't take into account contact resistances. Using the wire as a load is fine, but wrap a few more turns to keep the current a little lower and you could use an Eagletree to measure the current since it uses a HE sensor with minimal parasitic insertion resistance.

Sorry I forgot to mention where you buy them, yes A123rc.com sells them, and that's where I got this one.

Brian, I do have an Eagletree, I just don't know where I have (mis)placed it. It is an older 100A model so yeah the continuous current should be around 100amps ideally.

Snell, isn't the 32157 an HD electrode chemistry geared more for energy denisty rather than power?

Snell, did you mean an electric bicycle or electric motorcycle?

Well according to some emails I made to A123 Systems, A123RC is NOT an official distributor of A123 Systems and does NOT sell genuine A123 Systems products. According to A123 Systems, every so called A123 cells of any format sold to the public from online sources is either scrap cells or counterfeit cells.

Well if the cells I have seen perform in a couple forums are scrap or counterfeit, I say keep em coming. They do pretty darn good. IIRC I have seen in a Jack Rickards video someone who pulled close to 1000amps from a prismatic 20ah cell (surely a scrap or counterfeit one if you listen to A123 Systems) with the voltage staying well above 2V. I'll try to find it again, it was cool to watch.

Well I have heard that, but this cell looks, feels and smells like A123... sure doesn't perform bad either. I wonder how the genuine cells perform? better, worse?

I think I know what video you are talking about, I saw the video posted on EndlessSphere forum about 2 years ago abouts. Those 20Ah cells are beasts, they say they are meant for energy applications, but the cell resistance is so low, you could use it for any application. I saw a video of a 600+ amp discharge of that 20Ah cell onto a steel flat bar, and something like 2.6 volts?

If they ARE counterfeit, then I wonder what this means for cycle life, or calender life? I shall find out if I keep cycling this thing, I am nearing 100 cycles now.

If you can't buy genuine A123 cells from online distributors, then where do you buy them?

I really want to test one of those 32157 cells

The response I got from A123 Systems is that there is no way for an individual to buy genuine real MC Coy A123 Systems cells of any kind.

I found the video of that crazy Irish dude Damian MC Guire:yes: I thought he was testing some A123 cells but he's not. He's testing a CALB CA180 LiFePO4 cell. A big cell good for cars and trucks but not really for motorcycles or bikes. Still the testing is fun to watch.
Go to http://www.evtv.me/vidarch.html Then scroll down to the July 27, 2012 video titled ''Cadillac Escalade - IT'S ALIVE! First run'' The video takes a bit of time to load. The testing starts at 4 min. 37 sec. but there's a lot of tlaking about it. The good parts I saw are at 21 min. 30 sec., 24 min. 40 sec. and 25 min. 50 sec.

Oh, missed this question.

I mean an electric bicycle. If I only hand the money to build me one. Maybe if I sold all my RC stuff........

Hey, I have been busy the last week, sry I haven't posted in a while. I am currently at 100 cycles on that 32113 cell, but I am currently cycling all the cells in my 52 volt (16s) 15Ah ebike battery as I thought there was a problem with some cells, but it turns out that I have too much de-ox mineral paste on the connections that it was making a high resistance point at every cell. I have been checking every cell, cycling them 3 times and they all come out as 15+Ah and 720i reports 0 mOhm for all cells.

I will get back on the 32113 cycling when I can, and make a video of different discharge loads.


Snell, I would like to make a cheap electric bike conversion as well. It would be nice to use a small power pack enough for daily commute, PLUS a trailer with a gen set for long trips.

125 cycles now and still reporting the same max 4360mah when it was new from A123rc.com. I did a few mixed discharges with 10Amps and 80amps pulsed, for a 3 min discharge. This thing might not have the best energy density but it sure is tough.

I will post a high discharge test tonight.

Thanks for the work you're doing here with those cells. So how many cycles are these cells good for you think? I looked at the datasheet and from what it says, they drop to 80% capacity just after 300 cycles? Or maybe I just don't understand the graphic because it doesn't really show the same thing you are experiencing after 125 cycles.

No problem, I figured since there is no videos or discharge tests on this thing, I thought I would do a half rigged setup to cycle it and abuse it.

What datasheet are you looking at? IIRC, they are the most cycle tolerant cell that A123 makes. So far, I see 0% loss in capacity at this point, capacity loss from cycles is pretty linear graph, so I can see this thing lasting thousands... if used for a strictly power pack buffer (micro cycles) then it could last tens of thousands.

I can't post that high rate discharge today like I said.

BTW, I was doing a high rate discharge and forgot about it and the cell was brought down to 0.7volts. I quickly pulled the cable off and I immediately started charging at 0.4amps until it reached 3.0volts.

IR check at Dschg. # 125 cycle - 1mOhm and reporting 4330mah

All IR checks done with 720i NET charger, BULK discharges done with MIXED 720i 10amp discharge, or 13C wire constant resistance discharge, a few heavy discharges of 30C or more.

Dschg#1 - 4300mah IR check: 3mOhm
Dschg#60 - 4315mah IR check: 2mOhm
Dschg#110 - 4350mah IR check: 2mOhm
Dschg#130 - 4340mah IR check: 2mOhm


DSCHG # 131.....

Discharge load 16FT of 6awg booster cable shorted

Cell temp before & after: 111F - 138F

Cell voltage before: 3.425v. fully charged
Cell voltage on load: 3.053v.

Total discharge time: 2:04 mins = 30+ C discharge = 132amps AVERAGE DISCHARGE

Discharge rate would be higher than 30C at start of discharge, and lower at end of discharge.

cool stuff man.

I was looking at the pdf file I got from A123 Systems about those cells. See it here. Man you are beating that cell like there's no tomorrow. That is one tough cell up to now. Did you say that you brought that cell down to 0.7V and it came back up with practically no increase in IR?

Yeah we know Bondo.

mistercrash, the only graph about 300 you are thinking about is cell level capacity vs. kWh throughput... so after 300kWh have been cycled through the cell, it is at 80% capacity. That is ALOT of energy throughput.

It looks like my cell I bought is on the bottom of the cell capacity range at roughly 4.36Ah, range is 4.3 - 4.5Ah.... maybe the rejects of less than 4.4Ah are sent to resellers in China?

I am finding this thing doesn't have a very linear cell IR, seems to hold a narrow voltage range under load regardless of discharge current. Report back tomorrow for heated discharge test, cell temp will be 170 F. :whistle:

Yeah that's what I thought, I didn't understand the graph correctly :whip:

Dsch# 145

Cell IR reporting 1mOhm (cell temp 126F) CHARGE

DISCHARGE

Cell voltage: 3.447 (discharged a bit to get rid of top charge~99%)

Cell voltage under load: 3.089v. (after 30 secs of discharge

Discharge time: 1:57

Forgot to post the cell temp at start of discharge: 158F

Cell after discharge: ~170F

FROZEN CELL TEST

Cell temperature: -26 C (-14 F.)

Cell voltage before discharge @ -26 C: 3.456v

Discharge time: 1:56 secs (not 100% DOD, ~70% DOD)

Cell voltage with the 16ft of booster cable (6awg.): 2.02volts
Cell voltage at end of discharge: 2.86volts
Cell temp end discharge: ~10 C (50 F)

Quite a difference in start temp and end temp, at sub zero temperatures the cell is dissipating much more energy as heat... as you can see in the voltage drop.

Dsch#165 IR 2mOhm

4340mah

Any ideas for abusing this cell?

Well I'm at dsch # 200 and the cell reports up to 4360mah still and between 1-2mOhm according to 720i. If no one cares about this then let me know, otherwise I have no interest in cycling this thing.

A123 claims this thing can handle up to 10,000 cycles or ~280kwh energy throughput before it hits 80% of original capacity, I think that all we need to know, it's a tough little bastard, good for power cycling, but definitely not energy density, as it's only 70Wh/kg vs. 133Wh/kg for their 20Ah pouch cell.

This cell would be stellar as an engine starter battery.