1/8 Buggy w/ a Outrunner Motor
 

Here are a few pictures of my latest project. Its a Cen Matrix that I am going to try a Cyclon outrunner motor in. The motor is a Cyclon 2000. W/ a Mamba Max on 5s Lipo. I have been thinkig about these motors for a long time and I found a deal I couldnt pass up so I figured what the heck should be a pretty nice application for it. The mamba maxx seems to run it pretty nicly. Although I have not had it ooked to the drivetrain yet. Just spinning freely to test the system out.

Its a long way from finished...These pictures just show it with everything set in place for a basic layout. Nothing is tied down permanently yet and the wires are all over the place. Lots of work still to do.

The peak amps it calls out on the cyclon data sheet is only 65A. I figure that it should be enough to make it get up and go.

Anyway this should be a 1100-1200 watt setup... Anyone know how many watts would be needed fo a good racing setup on a buggy like this? I'm am thinking about taking this to the local indoor track (well not so local... Its 1 1/2 hours away) and trying out racing against the nitros with it.

Is there a target wattage I should be shooting for in a racing setup that is not over the top? Maybee 4s would be a better chioce?

Any other sugestions? One thing I was thinking about was moving the center diff a little farther over to the motor side so I can get the battery closer to the center line? And the final battery position will probably be a little farther forward for better balance. Not sure on that yet.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...z/CIMG1577.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...z/CIMG1578.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...z/CIMG1579.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...z/CIMG1580.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...z/CIMG1581.jpg

Hey! Nice man! I have wanted to try an outrunner myself for a long time, i was up until a month ago, but decided to go 7XL... i was thinking about the E-Flite Power-46 motor, it's 670Kv motor, which should be able to drive a differential directly. It's rated for 55A burst, it had reversible shaft and everything.

That motor looks nice too, even though it's 65A, doesn't mean it won't perform! I here they perform in real world apps better than inrunner's of the same 'rated power' or peak amps. Are you sure you need a diff in there?? That seems like an awfully geared down setup, and i think it would be slow slow. What Kv motor is it?

BTW, how is everybody posting pics larger than 640x480? That's all i can do...

Its a 2093kv motor with a 40K rpm limit. They have some kind of diferent tecnology in it that they say it has all of the torque of a 10K outrunner, with 4 times the rpm so it has even more ''power'' than a conventional outrunner. Their cell limit is 16 or 5s for this motor. They claim that it is the highest power to weight ratio motor anywhere. I'm hoping that it does have the torque it claims so I can really play some games with the gearing. We'll see I guess.

You can read more about it www.cyclonbrushless.com


I use photobucket.com

I would say, "Go for it!". If it doesn't work out well, then you can play around with the gearing.

Nice!

Did you tested these Enerland cells yet? got an Eagletree?

Serum, this is probably the 10th time you have asked me that and I can finally say......
Yes, I do have data from eagletree on these cells.:018:
Just got the eagletree a few weeks ago. The data is obviously not from this model, but I did run this pack in another 1/8 buggy I have.

It was set up w/ a Quark125 a Lehner 1940/7 and this 5s pack geared to 16/46.

I was pulling 130amps (over 30C on these 4350mah packs.) The voltage dropped, but it handled it no problem. I didnt hook up the eagle tree until the very end of the pack (you can tell by the resting voltage being just barly over 18.5) so I'm not sure how valid this data is, and it was also only 40 degrees F outside so the cold weather didn't help the lipo packs.

Here is the data.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...7_16-46amp.jpg


This is the only pack I have tested so far. Not sure what I should expect from them under these conditions. They seemed to perform pretty well to me under the conditions.

That is pretty tight. Have you got a test run on it yet. I have seen them in a crawler but not in a buggy or speed truck.

That battery is holding up pretty well IMO. 130amps (37C!) @ 3.2v is not bad at all, considering that the graph shows the voltage after wiring losses.

No haven't tested it yet. Its not even close to being finished.

As far as the motor goes, its a little different than a typical outrunner. It has a 40K rpm capability due to some kind of wiring that makes it act like a 4 pole motor to the controller allowing the high rpm from an outrunner that is normally limited by the controller frequency capability. I am not sure what to expect from this thing, but being the optimist that I am... I am hoping for all the torque of an outrunner, with the rpm of an inrunner. (the best of both worlds) I'm sure there will be some sort of compromise, I'm just not sure what it will be.

Bench testing w/ a mamba max it runns nice. Also bench tested it on a QUark125, and also ran good. I am going to test it on a BK controller also, but I expect that it will not run very well. The BK's dont handle the motors with more than 2 poles well.

Freaking good cells!! 3.38V at a 130A load.. Awesome..

You got them cheap, right?

I am also very interested in this outrunner.. Please keep us informed! i will keep a close eye on this thread.. 130A at 3.38V.. Fewwww that's a great 5S pack you've got.. These cells deliver you the 3.5V per cell at 100A load.. Awesome..

Yes. They were a ''good deal.''

Serum, we must be seeing the graph differently. At 0.9 minutes I'm seeing the 100amps, and the pack voltage at 16volts. 16volts/5cells = 3.2v/cell.

Yeah, my bad.. I meant 3.23 instead of 3.32 Look at the minimim voltage under the graphic. Not bad either IMO.. These babies do a 3.5V at a 100A load though..

Also remember this is the very tail end of the pack charge. They literally dumped like less than 1 minute after this graph. Next time I get a chance to run them I will redo the graph with a fresh charge. I'm sure it will be much better.

I really like your buggy, have you had a chance to race it yet ?.

Very nice man! I was wondering.. where did you get that fan for the MM? I would kill for one of those :)

No Need to Kill anyone.:005:
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bi...LING_FAN_.html

Thanks - hows the shipping with those guys?

No, Its not even done yet.:005: Still need to make a battery tray and get a few other things taken care of before its RTR. Probably a few more weeks. I'll see about getting it out to the indoor track in January probably.

I think it was $5 or so. Kinda sucks to pay $5 shipping for a $4.50 item. So I ordered it w/ a few other things I needed.

I am gonna get 2 of these just in case somthing happens to one. thanks BTW, what screws did you use to keep the fan in the MM esc?

just used some self tapping 3mm screws I had. they grabbed perfectly in between the fins on the heatsink.

I bought 2 of them too.

3mm screws .. gotcha . thanks.

a little update...

Got it set up for a test run, The battery box isnt finished yet but everything else is. so I just took the pack and strapped it in with some velcro straps and gave it a quick test run up and down the street. Nothing major. I used a half charged 5s lipo just to give it a little safety margin for the first run.

Some observations from the first run.

The outrunner motor with the Mamba Maxx is all but useless. It coggs so badly that i can barly even get it to move. When it cogged I let off the throttle IMEADIATELY. I read the horror stories of the Mamba max on 5s melting down under cogging conditions. I think this is just a compatabiltiy issue with the mamba and the multi pole motor. (Just like CC told me it would have) Cogging caused the motor to get very hot, very quickly, the mamba didn't seem to generate much heat though. Hopefully the software update from CC will fix this when it comes out. If I gave it a push so it was rolling then it would go and had really good power for such a small motor. from the rolling start it would break all 4 tires loose and start sliding sideways.

Next I swapped out the motor for my Neu 1515-2.5D(1700kv). This ran MUCH better. Still had some slight cogging issues, but as long as I didnt just punch it from a standing start it was fine. Just needed to roll on the throttle and all was good. I must say Im pretty impressed that this little controller can handle the big motor as well as it does. It took 4 or 5 full throttle runns down the street and when I brought it back in it was barley warm. So far so good.:018:

Something I did observe with the Neu/Mamba, when I did try punching it from a stand still a couple times. Once it cogged so badly it actually jumped backwards 3 feet or so. :dft002: That freaked me out and I decided standing starts at WOT are not a good idea.

So for now I am going to finish this thing and then start testing with the Neu. I might try my Lehner 1940 in it and see if that motor will run cogg free. CC also told me that that the Lehners were very close to thier motors and would probbaly runn better than a Neu untill the update comes out. Problem is, its a 2200kv motor and just a little to hot for my comfort on 1/10 ESC. Thats the motor that was pulling 130A from the chart below. So its not really a good long term solution for me. Just an experiment to see if the 2 pole runs beter than the 4 pole on the MM.

I am not going to give up on the Cyclon outrunner. When the thing ran... it was pretty damn impressive I gotta say. When I get a chance Ill drop it into my emaxx and test it with the a Quark controller. I'm betting it will be much better cuz Quarks handle the muti pole motors with no issues. (and an email from Cyclon actually recomended this controller) I'll follow up with a post with these test results when I get around to trying it.

I gotta say, Even though some of you have tested it and swer by it, I had my doubts as to if the MM would be able to work in an application like this. But so far it looks lke it could be viable. Won't know for sure though untill I get it completely finished and really see what it can do.

Good test! I bet that outrunner would work a lot better with a different controller like the Quark since it specfically has an outrunner mode. Maybe an MM update will fix that.

I am curious to hear about the performance and thermal characteristics of the LMT with the MM.

With a max of 40,000 rpm's he might have to leave it in inrunner mode

Interesting info in the update.

I am curious what Mamba Max settings you are running with the Neu 1515?

I see a little cogging with my 1512, but not too bad. I run with these settings.
Punch = 30
Timing = Normal
Start Power = Medium

Matt

So far defailt settings. i havent even messed with that yet. You are right though. Making some adjustments might help. Ill see if I can make any improvements next time.

Another Short Update...

A little more testing of the Mamba Max with both the Neu and the Lehner motors. Lets just say the Mamba Max in its current state is not suitable for running a 4 pole motor. IMO

Take a look at this vid clip I put together of my little experiment.

The first part its set up with the Neu 1515 and 5s. Standing start full throttle acceleration. It coggs like crazy 2 times in a row, then with slow aceleration it starts no problem.

2nd part is with a Lehner 1940 in it. You will see no problem at all with a hard full throttle start. Starts right up and just spins the wheels.

Both setups are using the exact same everything including pinion size. Only difference is the motor. This is just a short little clip shot inside to demonstrate what I was seeing. I saw the same thing outside.

http://s66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...v?t=1166497295

Once the Neu started it ran like a champ and the esc ran much cooler than with the Lehner. Thats cuz its only a 1700kv motor vs the Lehner which is 2200kv. If CC can get the start up isssues fixed with the 4 pole motors this can be a really sweet low cost esc. I didn't see any other problems with it. I tried playing with the timing and start power, but nothing really made a difference on how it started with the Neu.

Now I'm kinda stuck. Can't run the Lehner I have cuz its way to hot of a motor and will fry the Mamba in no time. It got really hot running the Lehner in just a matter of 1 minute and I can't run the outrunner that I originally planned to run with it cuz it will not start without a push. So my only real option is the Neu and I'll just have to take care not to start to quickly from a stand still.

I really hope that CC comes out with their software update for this thing pretty soon. If it fixes the cogging problem Im seeing with multi pole motors, then it could be the greatest bargain in brushless. It could be that I'm just spoiled by how smoothly the Quark starts and runs everything. I gotta try that outrunner on the Quark next.


BTW: I know... not the best lighting, but you get the idea.

EDIT: I did se some very minor coggin with the Lener also, but nothing to worry about. Just not as smooth as the Quark. With the proper kv Lehner it could be a really good setup I think.

EDIT 2: And heres a couple pics of the finished setup. Just needs the Rx to be tied down.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...z/CIMG1588.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...z/CIMG1589.jpg

Thanks for doing this test! I was looking at the Neu vs LMT for my buggy and was a little skeptical about the Neu on the MM. This helped my decision! LMT it is!

Very nice buggy. I'll bet you will get some serious speed out of that setup. I really like your battery holder too! Is that two pieces of angled carbon fiber? I'm assuming that is either 1 inch or 1.5 inch. That is a very good way to do it. I'm converting a Jammin CRT Truggy right now, but I've been hung up on how to mount the lipo packs. The biggest problem is that the packs will hang out past the end of the chassis a little and I have to support it and also anchor the Velcro strap. I might do it the same except with aluminum.

Thanks.:018:

Yea, its 2 pieces of 1x2 carbon fiber angle to make a channel. I find it a little easier to work with using hand tools than aluminum. A dremmel with a fiber cut off wheel and you can pretty much shape it to anything you want. I find it easier than aluminum to work with at home. CA bonds it like iron so joining pieces is pretty easy too.

Just make sure you wear a mask and don't breath the dust. Its not good for you.:020:

Did you drop the gearing down any with the lmt?

No. Not for this test. I used 15T on both motors. But being the higher KV motor, that should have hurt thr Lehner vs the lower kv Neu.

I havent played with gearing to try an optimize it yet. Gotta get it out for more than a minute or 2 to get a feel. Also want to hook it to an eagle tree and see what happens with theamps when It coggs like that. Mys suspision is a thru the roof spike. Which would explain the burnt MMs I have read about on the board here.

That may have been why you had the higher temps though.
Just a consideration.

Yea, Could be.

I was running the 1940/7 in an Ofna buggy for a little while w/ a Quark125 on a 16/51 gearing. It screamed and temps were fine. 16/51 and 15/46 are close to the same ratio. Thats why I choose 15T as the starting point. I estimated that if anything I would be undergeared on the Neu.

I tend to think its just the MM is a smaller controller not built to take the same kind of load as the Quark. But you are right, I probably could gear it down a bit to make it run cooler. And probably would need to on a track anyway.

I just think that motor on 5s is a little to much to be runnnig on the MM. Its going to tend to draw more than the lower Kv motor. Although, Once I start gearing the lower Kv up to get a little more speed, who knows.

There are so many variables I feel like you just need to feel you way into it for every setup. Kinda like an art rather than a science.

Update:

Well The MM is dead. I plugged it up tonight with a freshly charged 5s pack and and the Neu. First pull of the throttle it cogged slightly and then all hell broke loose. Poof just like that, up in flames and smoke. I quickly unplugged the battery and the flames went out. Hope it didnt toast the Neu... That would piss me off.

Its just not cut out for 5s voltage.

Looks like I'll send it in for the $50 Gaurantee and when it comes back it will replace the 7020 in the Rusty. Man my rusty is gonna be stylin:cool:.


EDIT: Nothin I hate worse than the smell of burnt electonics..:mad:1

Too bad to hear about the Mamba Max. RIP.
I guess that is the cost of living on the edge. I know some people have sucessfully run the MM on 5S Li-Po or 6S A123, but I wonder how much time they have on those setups.

4S on the MM has treated me well, of course it is rated to handle 4S and even has a LVC for 4S.
I guess a Quark 125B is up next.

How does the $50 Castle Creations guarantee work? $50 buys you a new one with the return of a smoiked MM?

Matt

Quote from the 2nd to last page of the MM manual...

''Flat rate charge for non-warranty repair/repalcement (for any reason) is $50 for your Mamba Max ESC''

4s is proven stable. 5s... not so much.:005: