a123 or lipo.... and other ?s
 

hey ive been thinking of getting some diff kind of batteries (ditching the nimh) and i have come to the conclusion that these are really the only other way to go.. lol.. so ive been looking around and i think i have a decent pros and cons list

LIPO PROS
3.6v per cell
LONG run time
can keep my ice charger and use for these

LIPO CONS
not the best for bashing (hazardous)
EXPENSIVE
need to be handled with care
normal long charge time
365 grams

A123 PROS
260 grams
very durable
15min charge time
can get 2 batts and a charger for 200 bucks

A123 CONS
short run times
are not stick packs so there not a direct fit
needs its own charger


those are the only cons i could find for the A123 cells.

i dont feel like spending 120 for the 8000 3s2p packs and end up maybe breaking them.
but on the other hand i dont want to have my ice charger go to waste
im going to be running this in a mm5700 rusty to keep that in mind.
what setup do you think would be best for me? the 3s1p hypersonic starter set or getting 2 8000mah 3s2p lipos? (or some other lipos but id rather these for the runtimes)

also if i get the rcm g10 chassis for the rusty will i be able to fit the lipos in? also can i fit the a123 cells in it?

also another question.... i had was for my ice charger what is the best cheapest power supply i can buy?

thansk ALOT again guys!

Run times are not much behind the Li-po's but the voltage is so they feel "less punchy".

4s li-po is 14.8v nominal and 16v freshly charged. 4s A123 is 13.2v and roughly 14.8 freshly charged.

The sizes are a bit odd and fitment can be an issue, but they are basher friendly and friendly on the wallet! they also hold their voltage across the discharge timeline very well (voltage does not drop off much as you use up the pack)

so pretty much getting that starter kit on a123 racing you think would be better for me? how would the run times be on these? they are only 2300 mah so idk what to expect.. but if i get 2 of them in the starter kit and the charger charges them in 15 min it doesnt matter even if there only a 7-10 min runtime.

also will i need a power supply for the kit on a123racing?

thanks!

You can get the 2s-2p's which are 6.6v and 4600mah or the 3s1p's which are 9.9v but only 2300 mah.

Not sure what will fit the rusty. Is that what you're putting it in?

ya its going into a rusty. i was going to get the rcm g10 chassis but after looking at it i dont knowhow the a123 packs would fit into it...

im going to get the 9.9v because my 7.2v packs dont compare AT ALL to my 8.4v pack. i dont really like running my 6 cells anymore because of that so making it a 6.6v would be pointless. but since i can charge the batts in 15 min it doesnt matter what the runtime will be.

btw, if you're using a low watt drawfrom the packs you can use their "turbo" pack which allows you to select the nominal voltage. They are limited though. Probably around 300watt draw. You'll need to inquire about that I don't have the ratings handy.

Personally, I would go with Lipo. They are better in almost every way instead of cost and their hazerdous nature.

However, with a proper LVC, the only hazard is physical damage. In a rusty, if you have them properly secured, it will be nearly impossible to damage them unless something actually enters through the body and physically hits them. The other possibility is breaking your chassis, in which you will probably have other, more expensive problems if you happen to accomplish that.

I have just gotten the 2S2P 8000mah packs for my G2R and they are insane. I'm very happy with them so far (I've only ran them for about 5 minutes). I'm hitting the track tomorrow to put them to the test.

why are lipos better than the a123 cells?

can ya give me a pros and cons list bp?

also procharged i saw those turbo packs but people said they dont offer enough draw or something. i like how yo ucan change it to what you want but people said something about them sucks and idk what it was but ya...

also how long does it take to charge the 8000 mah? also if i did get the
2s2p it would be 7.2v but would it be more powerfull than a regular 6 cell gp3300? because i LOVE the power of the 7 cell so i dont really want anything less.

T-maxx, lipos are better because of the high mah, higher voltage and the more watts they can put out... But the a123s are a bit better in the durability department..

If you charge @ 1C the 8000mah will take 1 hour and 20 minutes to charge.
Yes, the 2s2p lipo will be more powerful than a 6 cell gp3300. It will probably even be more than a 7 cell pack!

I would get the 6000 lipo from maxamps myself.. lighter and still plenty of runtime..
phil

o sweet.... well as far as the mah goes... if i can charge the a123 packs in 15 minutes the runtime doesnt really matter as long as its around 7 minutes or more... is it? also how will the 3s1p 2300mah a123 cell compare to the 2s2p 8000 mah lipo as far as power goes

the 8000mah would have alot more power and more than twice the runtime.
Imo go for lipo.

so wait a 7.4v lipo would have more power than a 9.9v a123 cell?

what could i expect the runtime for the 6000 to be?

think someoen can give me a good pros and cons for the a123 cells? because i dont see too many cons..

Ive asked that question recently, not sure if it was on this site. Anyhow for an emaxx Im hearing 30+minutes. Obviousely a lot will depend on the driver. I just ordered the 6000. Lessens the $ blow of the 8k's, plenty of amps and good run time.

What are some charger that will charge at 6 amps. Looks like all 3 of mine has a max of 2.5:002:

if i were you id get the super brain 989. i have the ice and love it but it needs a power supply... and the 989 comes with one.

well im guessing that in a rusty it should have better runtimes then

Compared to Lipos, cons are:
-heavier
-harder to solder

Here's my list of pros compared to Lipos:
-Much more durable
-Safer
-Can be charged faster with fewer negative effects
-Lower cost (16.5v 4600mah 140amps continuous for $100, for Lipo 14.8v 6000mah 120amps continuous [Maxamps] is $200)
-More tolerant of over/underdischarge

A123s can handle high charge and discharge rates better than any lipo out there (atleast on paper so far). After 1000 20C discharge cycles they are rated to only loose about 20% capacity. With heavy abuse of 30C discharges and 10C charges, they're still rated to last about 200 cycles! If charged at 4C they're rated to last 1000 cycles or more. Charged at 0.5C, 5000 cycles! No Lipo can claim anything even close.

Add to that they're very durable under physical abuse and tolerant of charging and discharging abuse. In a pinch they can be charged on a standard lipo charger as they will tolerate being charged up to 4.2V per cell.

Weight is their main downside IMHO.

tmaxx32- The Ice has a Li-ion setting. I don't know if it will charge in 15 minutes though. It has 8 amp max I believe which would be about 3.5 C.

I really like the Apogee li-mn batteries, they are safer than lipo and have the same voltage. They also charge the same as lipo, except you can charge at 2C (30 min or so)

Those Apogee cells are a little on the pricey side though compared to Lipos or A123s...

scoob i know it CAN charge the a123 cells but id like have to monitor it and what not though right? if i could just straight up use the ice and all the monitoring id have to do is set it and forget it!! (gotta love that commerical) but anyways if all id have to do is set it to the right specs and charge for 15 min then take it off id do that. but idk how easy it would be. anyone wanna let me know how it works?

also the 3s1p 2300 a123 cells only weigh 260grams compared to the 365grams of the 8000 lipo 2s2p i believe.

and i really dont plan on spending 200 bucks on 1 battery... i have a better time bashing then racing so even if the a123 are heavier its not that big of a deal.....


plus my revo is mainly my racing truck.

i don't know what the price of the a123 batts are but at the RC convention in Chicago they were selling 2 batteries and there charger(which by the way you just stick it on and leave it no setting or monitoring nothing and when the light flashes it done and you ready to go) i don't know about me but a good lipo costs 180 for one and 2 is 360 and you buy a 140 ice charger and then you buy a 100 ofna power supply and you are easily up to 600 bucks just so you can save some weight and get a small amount more of power. Now the second option might be worth it if someone has a charger that does charge lipos safely and Farly fast or they can get a heck of a sale on the lipos so they wont cost so much. But IMO for a bashing needs for 160 or 200bucks you get a more tolerable battery, very easy to charge (no programing) charger, a 15 minute charge time, the ability to charge it an unlimited time each day, and the cheapness, and all you give up is weight(which if you bashing is not to important) and voltage. So if you are bashing especially think about getting these batteries IMO. But if your racing the other batteries might have what your looking for but the A123 might also work because of the price. Sorry for the huge statement

thank you much for the statement! i couldnt go lipos for now... my job pays 200 a month and all that goes to my dad for the truck payment (i only work 20 hours a month) so i have to find way for extra money and im not going to wait months and months to get a nice lipo setup! im going with the a123 batts but now all im thinking about is a couple diff methods


buying only the batterys and no charger- charge w/ ice(150 instead of 200)
buying the whole kit and not have to worry about charging with the ice (200)
buying the 36v dewalt pack and making myself 3 batts-use ice (100)
or buying the 36v dewalts making myself 3 batts then buying charger(like 150)

as you can see.... there are dissadvantages and advantages to each so idk..

what you guys think?

buy the A123 kit that comes w charger 2 batteries. good puch, fast charge, easy to use, and it is safe. plus it is only 160 at hobby show or 200 at store

hobby show? website or something?


thanks!

it is when it comes to you town i dont think there is a website but it was a special offer so the only place to get them is probably on the website.

ya figured. but heck 200 bucks is still a great deal.

thanks!

yeah that's true, but ya can't put a price on safety, not to mention cutting charge time in half!

The A123's seem to be a good choice if safety, charge time, and discharge C are your major concerns. It would just be nice if they were available in a flat pack instead of round...

arent they comming out with a flat pack soon.

I'm not aware of any.

Lately I've been using my ICE to charge my 5s2p A123 pack. Believe it or not, but in 10cell NiMh mode, the ICE WILL charge up to the 18v that 5s A123 needs to be charged to to get a full charge. In fact, the ICE will even go over 19v! (it was an accident, I swear!) The ICE does have a 120watt power output limit, so when a 5s pack is approaching the end of a charge it can only put out about 6.7amps (but at 15v it can still do the full 8amps).
You do need to cut the charge off manually, though. Or, you can get a "LipoDapter" that will cut the charge off at 3.6v/cell.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "flat" pack. Are you referring to the A123 3S packs?

I am testing a prototype 3S flat pack from modelelectronicscorp.com (same size as the 4S pack)
I am running 7S on my maxcim system and am happy with the the initial results. I charged them in series using my Lipodapter and Astroflight 110D. The funny thing is that the 110D cuts off the charge before the LipoDapter.
I am going to really put them to the test this weekend when I head down to the track so I'll have a better idea on actual track results then.

I really don't know why anyone would want to solder these cells together.
The Solderless Power Tubes are, IMHO, the best way to go. The M1 cells stay in balance very well so using a balancer on every charge is really over kill and not necessary IMO.

I meant A123 should make flat packs like lipos are so they'll fit better and make more efficient use of the room they do take. Probably wouldn't have a metal shell, but that would save weight.

I don't think it wise not to have these in a metal casing. It seems like an expensive and messy risk and I'd assume much easier to puncture than LiPoly.

The A123 "round" casing is quite light, I think its something like .5oz at most
I've held an empty cell and its almost un-noticeable.

flat pack would be sweet. but i guess you pay for what you get!

thanks guys! im just going to bnuy the a123 cells!

I chose to solder because of the extreme (IMO) cost of the SPTs. I just made up a shopping cart of everything I would need to do one 4s2p setup (2 x 2s2p), and it would cost $40 without shipping. The current setup on my Revo is 5s2p (3s2p + 2s2p), and to make a pack like that using SPTs would cost $52. Obviously the Silver Power Paste is a one-time buy sort of deal, but for me to make another 5s2p pack it would still cost $36.

The only cost for my soldering method is the copper braid, which cost something like $7 and will make almost two packs (the cost of the solder is almost negligible). And with as many car projects as I have on the budget I'm on (12hrs/week at $6.75, half of that goes to savings, and then $20/week allowance), the method I'm using is so much easier to afford.

A123 cells aren't perfect, and won't perfectly maintain balance. When using the Dewalt packs, sometimes (even with brand new packs) there might be a low cell or two. One cell in one of my Dewalt packs was at something like 1volt while the rest were at ~3.30v. Even if you don't use the Dewalt packs, balancing is a very good thing to at least be able to do.

I tested out my 7S setup (with a SPT phantom cell) at the track yesterday and am very pleased with the performance. The extra cell made all the difference in the voltage drop I saw with the 6S setup and I plan to use the 7S config for racing.

Budget restrictions are always a factor. The SPT kit is a one time purchase and gives you the ability to make x-1 cell configs (x being the max cells for the kit). These packs are easy to take apart and put together, so if/when you chose, you can replace or balance cells. In terms of balancing, I don't see these cells much different than NiMh packs. After 20+ cycles, I believe Pete's 6 cell pack was within a few one hundredths of a volt of each other.

I got my Eagle Tree system the other day so I am eager to do some testing, if it ever stops raining that is. I didn't realize they are based right over in Bellevue :027: I could have saved a few bucks on shipping. :007:

I agree that the SPTs are great to use, and if I had some extra cash I might have gotten them. But for me, soldering works and I know that the joints between the cells are very strong, and so now the weak links are the tabs that are welded to the cells (I soldered to these tabs instead of directly to the tabs).

However, my soldering setup offers something that the SPTs cannot offer - I can have a 2p setup where there are groups of 2 cells in parallel that are then connected in series. With the SPTs, you would have to have two groups of cells in series that are then put in parallel, which IMO, is not as good of a way to do a 2p setup. Of course if you aren't doing a 2p setup like I am (and I know you are doing a 1p setup, starscream), then SPTs would work perfectly.

As for balancing, my packs are built for this. I had read that A123 packs would come into balance better after the first few cycles are completed, and at this point my packs seem to have done that.
You would be able to balance your SPT'd A123 packs, but it would still require soldering. You would cut slits out of the plastic tubes for each cell, and then you would use aluminum flux to solder wires onto the cells.