Neu and Mamba Max Combo
 

Hey guys,

I was just getting ready to buy a Neu 1515/1y. I've been running my Feigao 7XL setup for a bit now and feel comfortable that this power range is where I want to be on the track. It's quite close to insane without actually getting there. I have had a couple of instances on the straights where the back wheels really hooked up and the front wheels came off of the ground, but on the overall, it's quite controllable.

I've been having good luck with the 7XL/MM combo, but it's cold here right now. It's going to start warming up again in a month or two and what I mean by warm up is 90F+ temps with very high humidity. I want a system that is going to run cool.

So, here is the questions. I've heard of few people having cogging problems with the MM/Neu combos. I recall someone actually frying his MM during one cogging fit, and GD says that it was a problem that developed and then progressed over time. I had a bit of a cogging issue with my 7XL, but a new Deans connector fixed that.

Is there anyone running a Neu/MM combo and not having any problems? I'm really chomping at the bit to buy my "final" motor and if the Neu is going to be a problem, then I'll just go with the Lehner 1940/7 "hi-amp." I'm just not up for waiting around for Castle to release a firmware upgrade. That could be a long while. I do have the idea in the back of my head to just grab a Quark, but the MM is so easy to tune and it fits nicely in my setup.

Oh, and does anyone know if the RC Monster heatsink will fit the Neu smooth can motor? I'd like to be able to use that heatsink because it's easy to drill and tap for mounting a fan directly to the sink. I always run fans as an insurance policy.

Is the 1515 1Y a match fot the 1940? I thought the 1515s are bigger motors?

Great post - I'm dealing with the exact same question right now. I just bought a CRT Pro and will be building my system around the MM controller. I've heard the same thing about the cogging. Hopefully GD, Serum, or a few other guys will chime in.

By the way, what vehicle are you running this in?

Well I wish I knew what to say. It's really hard to put my finger on it... just when I think the MM/Neu is too much trouble, I go out and have a good time racing with it will just a minor amount of cogging. I almost forgot all about it and was just racing whcih was nice. That was with the same MM that has been in my CRT from day one.

I don't recall any time where I put the car down and watched it stutter enough for anyone to notice... it just always "worked".

But then after the races were done I went back out and messed around a few laps... I remember jumping the triple in front of the drivers stand (no double-single in practice :)) and rolled it. A kid flipped me ove and when I tried to go I got that massive cogging where it actually kicks backwards.. couldn't get it to go. So I just called it a day... we were in a hurry to get home 3 hours for me.

So I'm back to being really confused about the whole thing. It's the dead of winter here, or I would be out running it in the yard, etc for more testing.

In the CRT, it has always been pretty consistent in the cogging dept... I get a very subtle cogging maybe half the time, and a noticable stutter like 10-20%, and bad stutter less than like 5%.

On the track it has rarely been a problem becaue there aren't many times you are stopped. So the odds are in your favor.

There is also a rare occasion when I have seen it "cog" while moving... possibly the same glitch in the system that I have seen with the stock MM in my 1/10 cars. It has a bad "glitch" and then keeps running. That happened once during the races last weekend.

It's hard to give up on the MM due to the great software programing and the great feel of the system. My Mtroniks Truck works pretty well but it doesn't feel as smooth. My old MGM 120 hasa great throttle and start-up but the brakes are absolutely HORRIBLE.

I have yet to try a Quark... I guess I am giving CC the benefit of the doubt that they will fix the MM soon enough. Still no word on the update...

BTW, the Monster sounds like it will be summer rather than spring. Of course CC doesn't say much about it but it sounded like there won't be anything until late spring at the earliest. I think they have too many irons in the fire right now and the MMM isn't priority #1. That's the only logical reason why they don't have it out already.

I had the same thoughts for my buggy; get a MM and 1940, or a Neu and the Quark. I ended up with the Neu because the 1940's were not in stock, plus they seem to take longer to come in. I ended up with the Quark because 1) It is better sized for 1/8th scale applications IMO, 2) it has troubles with Neu motors, 3) I do not want to use a fan to cool the MM, and 4) there is no easy way to add a heatsink to the MM if I decided to do so.

IIRC, the Neu motors have a 40mmD for smooth can, and ~43mmD for the finned can. The LMT, Wanderer, etc are 36mmD.

I guess this means you probably want a 1940 huh? Who out there is running a Mm/1940 combo?... probably a 140/8 high amp? I'm sure that's a sweet motor!

I would like to see what the temps/run time is like compared to the 1515, if anyone has both motors.

This is my whole debate. Neu or Lehner? You guys have seen some of the comments in one of my other threads I'm sure. I thought I was going to go with the 1950/7 hi amp, but I'm still not 100% on it. I'll be running a CRT like GD, so if anyone has MM experience with that - that would be great to know.

Also, do the Neu/MM cogging issues have anything to do with the batteries? Would it matter if the batteries were a high quality like an Enerland? What other issues could it be?

I don't think it's the batteries... the MM has a hard time reading the backEMF or whatever it uses to "read" the motor and get it to fire. Basicly the MM expects to "see" teh same thing as with the CC motors, but the Neus are made different and confuse the poor little MM. :)

CC says it should only be a minor tweak to the software to make the MM compatible with them but you would think they could hurry up a little since it's so easy for them to fix. Or maybe it's not so easy after all?

So the big question then is if the Lehner has that same backEMF that the Neu does. Is this because the Neu is a 4 pole motor and the Lehner isn't?

i'd have to say, yes it is because nue is 4pole.

IIRC, someone here posted that Castle said the LMTs would work much better on the MM since they are 2 pole.

Also, the Neus have a relatively low turn count. The number part of the model (eg: the "2.5" part of 1512 2.5d) is the turns count. That's 2.5 turns, which is really very low. I wonder if that means the Nues are highly inductive, which can make it harder to drive? High inductance loads do funny things to AC current and voltage and tend to be harder on electronics.

RotaryRocket has run the MM with the Pletty Max... that's a 4 or 6 pole? He says it works awesome.

Seems that 2 poles is best right now... but I don't know if it's relaly about the # poles. CC talks about the contruction of the motor being different... I wonder if it has more to do with the stator design/material or winding pattern.

Yeah, Neus are constructed different now that you mention it. The windings are wrapped around ferrous cores to concentrate the magnetic energy while Wanderers and the MM motors are simply wound on the inside of the can (effectively an "air core"). I don't know how LMTs are constructed with respect to this.

Maybe it's a combination of the low wind count and the winding scheme?

And the number of poles too?:027:

yup ;)

Sounds like we really need someone with experience using the Lehner motor with the MM. I might be the guinnea pig here.:005:

Now if we could ever get the dang Lehners in stock! :002:

lol, my thoughts exactly! I really think the LMT will run just fine on the MM since the LMTs seem to be more of a conventional design.

From the very little testing I've done with the Quark/Neu combo, it runs silky smooth at very low rpms with absolutely no cogging.

Yeah, I was thinking of the Quark too, but I just love the ease of use with the MM. Plus, the dollars of the Quark/Neu combo are about the same as the MM/Lehner.

True, not much beats the MM programming, but programming the Quark isn't exactly difficult either.

Right. I think the other thing for me though is that the Quark seems to under perform it's specs and the MM seems to over perform. I've heard of guys having issues with the Quark on 5 cells or running hot. I think I'm back to the Lehner 1950 and the MM.

I actually did some comparison testing with the Neu and the Lehner motors on a MM. And I am the one that fried the MM with the Neu motor cogging.

The Neu/MM in my experiments was not an acceptable combination to me. I had a fairly repeatable issue with the Neu motor severely cogging on the MM. Using the same set up, just swapping the Neu out for the Lehner motor I got much smoother operation. In my opinion the MM is still not as smooth as the Quark. I literally don’t think I can make the Quark cog with any setup.

The MM is a great little controller and has demonstrated capabilities well over the specs that CC has set for it. But IMO it’s too small of a controller for 1/8 truggies and monster trucks and you are better off going with something a little bigger. And if you are planning to run a Neu you should not choose the MM either. Also if you want to run 5s it’s really pushing the limits on the MM. This is just my opinion.

The Quark on the other hand does have some heat issues, and doesn’t perform that well on 6s even though it is speced for it. Most aren’t running 6s for racing though and on anything less than 6s it’s the smoothest ESC out there IMO. The other downside is the known heat issue with the Quarks. This is easily solved by mounting the ESC flat to an aluminum chassis or using some sort of heat sink on the back of the case.

If you are going with the MM the Lehner is the way to go IMO. At least until CC gets a solution out for the Neu. I actually did talk to a few people over at CC about this and I was told that the MM was optimized to squeeze every last bit out of the Mamaba motors and that other motors performance suffered because of this. But, the Lehner motors were very similar to the Mamba motors and they would have the most sucess.

Here is a little video that I made a while back comparing the start up of the MM with a Neu and Lehner motor when I was testing the MM.

http://s66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...rs12-18-06.flv

I was planning on using the MM in a 1/8 buggy and in the end wound up going to the Quark for the project for all of the reasons listed above. I still have the MM that I got replaced with the $50 no questions asked policy sitting in its box waiting for the day CC comes out with the software update. Then I'll give it anouther try.

BTW: I don’t really think that CC is that worried about the Neu fix and thats why its taking so long. They are selling and marketing this thing to be used in 1/10 stadium trucks and buggies and on road Cars, not 1/8 and Monster trucks. 99% of the MM users out there are using it in its intended application with the Mamba motors and having no issues. It’s just a few extremists like us that are searching for its limits.

EDIT: AA, to answer your question. If you are staying with the MM go with the Lehner motor. At this point its a much better combo. IMO

Hmmm. So maybe I'm back to the Neu/Quark. :002:

Hey jhautz . . . so you designed the heat sink for the Quark eh? Any photos of it with the fans and installed in a vehicle? I would like to see it it you have any. Thanks.

And so the plot thickens....

OK then, what about a comparison of the Quark/Nue combo to the MM/Lehner combo.

Quark ($280) + Nue ($250ish for smooth can) = $530

MM ($135) + Lehner ($300) = $435

From a "starting from scratch" perspective the $95 or so difference in price shouldn't really sway anyone, considering the expense of time and money that have already gone into a conversion, so they are about on roughly equal footing.

If you already have a MM (which many do), then it's almost a no brainer. The complicating factor for me is that I like to have two ESCs. You just never know, and I hate my fun filled weekend to be put on hold because a little smoke escaped. For the price of one Quark, I can get two MMs.

I also have to deal with my own personality quirk. I just know myself. With all of the good things I've heard about the Quark/Neu combo, I'll always be wondering if that was the way that I should have gone, if I get the Lehner. From a financial standpoint, it's a matter of spending $300 or $530 and then more $ for the extra esc.

That was really the purpose of this post. I wanted to know how the MM/Neu combo runs, which I now know; and I also wanted to find out if the Lehner is every bit as good a motor as the Neu (from and power and efficiency standpoint). What about the shallow mounting holes on the Lehner that more than one person has commented about? Is it really an issue?

Oh, I also wanted to ask...what's the deal with the Lehner "hi-amp" version, other than not being limited to the use of 3.5mm plugs? Will it draw more current, or can it just handle more current?

Will it work with the RC Monster heatsink? Do you even need a heatsink?

Well, I can't answer all of your questions, but I can tell you the heatsink for the Lehner will depend on the gearing and size of the motor you select. But the short answer from my research is that you will not need a heat sink. Especially with the hi-amp because it will run cooler. I'm sure someone has a way better answer than that. :005:

You might check the thread I started on this Neu vs Lehner deal for my upcoming CRT conversion. Here's the link:

http://www.rc-monster.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5611

From what I understand, the Lehner motors are some of the most (if not THE most) efficient motors on earth.

Anyone else have some better info than me here?:027:

jhautz . . . dude, I just checked your photo album and saw my old Neu powered XXX4 G+!! That brought back memories - very cool.

Sorry all of you for that tangent. I'll stay on topic. :eek:

According to the guys at CC (if we can trust them ?) the Neu are hands down the most effecient motors "on earth"... at least on r/c earth.

:D

AA, I belive the HiAmp motors, besides the connector differences, let you run them in either delta or wye configuration which changes the kv... it's like getting two motors in one. But I haven't really paid attention to them, maybe I'm missing something.

btw, the 4mm shaft on the Lehners stink... too bad they don't just go 5mm like everthing else.

If you already have a Quark I think the answer is obviouls... buy a Neu.

If you already have a MM or want to stay with CC, then buy a Lehner.

Since you want a second back up system that makes it harder... two Quarks is a lot of jack.

For now I am staying in the CC camp and hoping that they really deliver the goods with the MMM.

If you buy a Lehner and a second MM that's cheaper, plus you never know... the update may do the trick and you can pick up a new Neu motor. :)

http://www.rc-monster.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3771

This is the original thread on that heatsink. The first post has pictures with it alone, with fans and installed on my revo with the quark. Heh, I was still running my 9XL in it back then. :002: Its got a Neu in it now.

The Quark/Neu or Quark/Lehner are still the best setups IMO. The Lehner and Neu motors are just about equal in my book as far as performance, but the Quark is still the best all around controller in my book. Smooth, plenty of programaing options, a built in LVC and with some sort of heat sink it handles plenty of power. Its not perfect, but its the best thing available right now IMO.

The challenge with the Quark for me is the value. It's expensive, and needs fans and a heat sink. I guess it's just tough for me to buy it when the MM is so close to being it's equal, costs 1/2 as much, and is so easy to program.

Heatsink yes. I think that it is ''needed'' The fans are not really needed. From what I have found the fans are a little overkill with the heatsink. I run the Quark in my XLB conversion with just a heatsink and it stays cool enough. Never thermals or anything. The fans just keep it really cool.

I wouldnt exactly call the MM its equal. The MM is a reliable 4s controller and the Quark is a reliable 5s controller. Yes the MM will run 5s, but about as well as the Quark runs 6s. Its pushing it. The MM only runs 2 pole motors. The quark will run any motor. (Even outrunners) The MM needs fans in larger scale aplications also. Most that run it in monster trucks or truggies need fans to keep the temps down. (EDIT: The Quark is still a much smoother esc than the MM even with 2 pole motors. The MM in my experience still has a slight cogging with the bigger 2 pole motors like the Lehner and Feigao motors. The Quark just doesnt cogg at all.) The only real advantage the MM has over the Quark is the USB programaing. And in my opinion how often do you really program the thing. A few times when you get it to try out different settings to see what works for you and then you pretty much just leave it. So that advantage doesnt loom that large in my mind. I cant remeber the last time I changed any of the setting on my quark. Once its setup it just works.

It really boils down to whats good enough for you and what your budget is. I'm not tring to bash the MM here. I think its amazing for the $$. I am talking about what the best setup is. IMO the Quark with any motor is still the best setup. I personally am willing to pay for it cuz I know it just works, its reliable, and I dont need a second controller in case the first one fries.

Yeah,

I'm sticking to the MM camp myself. Just running my MM with the Feigao 7XL, the smoothness is more than adequate. I didn't build the rig to go slow. I don't mind a tad bit of cogging that doesn't render the car into a state that needs physical intervention. I can get the MM/Feigao to cog if I try. Under normal driving is either doesn't happen or is not noticeable.

If the Lehner is as much motor as the Neu is, then I'll just go for the Lehner and hope that I never have to send it in for repairs. I'll just get it from Mike, and forego the price shopping. I'm starting to develop a sort of loyalty to his shop and if I do ever need repair work, he might be able to expedite things for me.

BTW, I'm going for the 1940/7. I thought about the 1950 series, but I think it's going to be way over kill. I've read of guys running 1930 series in monster trucks and having really good results; besides, my Feigao runs fairly cool. The Lehner should be better. BTW, will I notice a performance increase by going with the Lehner?

Will the RC Monster heatsink fit onto a 1940.

GD, I think I read someplace that the Lehner motors are no longer reconfigureable. Not a big deal to me, but if I'm wrong, it'll be a plus.

:) Very good points. I guess you're right about the frequency of programming. Not sure why I didn't think of that sooner. I had a Quark 33 in a Mini-LST and a XXX4 G+ (I guess you knew that one) - and you're right. Programmed it once and that was it. I think I'm back on the Neu/Quark setup.

This message board rocks.

OK, here I go second guessing myself again. If I get a performance increase with the Lehner, should I go with the 1940/7 or will the 1940/8 have performance similar to the 7XL?

The 1940/7 is a wicked motor. You will love it. And yes the RCM heatsink will fit it.

Try the 1940/7 on 5s if you really want a kick in the pants. Its jaw dropping.:p

What vehicle are we talking about here? Monster truck, truggy, buggy . . . ?

:018: Yea, That was a cool little buggy.

I would say 1940/8. After what you saw with the 7xl... saying it's almost too much, etc... do you want to go with the same kv again in the 1940?

Now is your chance to drop the kv a bit...

7:2239kv
8:1959kv

The 1940/7 is very close to your 7XL.

I don't know how much the actual performance will be different going to a 1940... should be about the same, just more efficient.

Just more food for thought. I'm joining this thread a little late but thought I would throw my experience with the MM and Neu 1515 1Y combo in an LST2. I've been running this setup for about 5 months now without any major issues. What I once thought was cogging was actually my brakes binding and causing stuttering. Believe me when I say this truck has been run hard and has had it's share of nasty crashes. The MM has even been ejected and dragged by it's wires a couple times. The only issue I had has been posted here and has to do with LVC settings on 5S. This video clip is pretty typical performace. on 5S. I couldn't be happier with my setup. Would I recommend it? Not without mentioning issues others have had here. With that being said I will be doing a CRT conversion soon myself... MM/Neu

I think you guys should check with Mike. I called him up and told him I already have the MM for my E-Revo and asked what motor he suggested and HE recommended the Nue 1515 2.5 and that is what CC was recommending as well - according to Mike. Reading this makes me a tad nervous since I have not finished my project but have a nice $280 motor sitting there on my bench waiting for a few more parts to complete the project.... fingers crossed!