Elec Monster/Truggy Class - Fighting a loosing battle
 

Hello,

I guess I should start by saying that for years I've been a die-hard Electric Monster Truck racer. I started 4 years ago at my local track where for the first two years, I raced an E-Maxx. At my track we ran the E's and T's together so it was all just great. Over time I modified my E to the point that it wasn't an really an E anymore. It was a brushless beast which was nearly unstoppable against the Nitro T-Maxxes.

About two years ago my track broke the classes up. Us Electric guys had to race against ourselves. For the most part this was OK. At this track we had a good core of 5 or 6 big time Electric guys with full on SuperMaxx trucks, most of which were brushless. This past year things changed again. Several of us (myself included) left the E-Maxx platform and switched to Electric Truggy custom conversions.

This coming race year things look a bit different. I realize it's Feb and months away from opening day but our track is under new ownership. The old owner was sympathetic to our small class, often if just 3 of us showed, he would let us run. Now, that doesn't look possible. Honestly I do have a Nitro Truggy as well (both Jammin CRTs) and while I'm not crazy about Nitro, I do like running two classes. I'd prefer not to run my Electric with the Nitro Truggies because if I do that, I can't run my Nitro truggy. Plus, I've never run my Truggy for more than the 5-6 minutes our races last. I've been using 3200 LiPo packs, they are light and last the race and that's all I really cared about.

I guess I'm wanting to talk with you guys about the state of racing these Electric Monsters or Truggies. WHY is this class on death's door? What will it take to revive it into a thriving hotbed of diversity and creativity. It seems that we have two kinds of racers, the novice racers who buy an E-Maxx and run it bone stock and the psycho nuts (which I'm one of) who dump large sums of money into these high voltage brushless animals. I've tried for years to recruit new blood into this class and for the most part I've failed. People often watch the races we have with awe, I think in just about all the races last year, our lap times were better than the "Revo" class and in most cases we even had better times than the Nitro Truggy class. So people watch, they comment, they come look at it but they just don't buy them.

About the only thing I can say is that despite the great press coverage RC Monster and a hand full of other innovative RC companies have rec'd from Driver, RCCA and other magazines - it seems that until Traxxas updates the E-Maxx the electric monster class will be doomed to low single digit race entries and basically be a side-show act at big races - if they even let us run. I'd like to change that but after 4 years of fighting this loosing battle I'm afraid it's just lost.

What do you guys think?

David Maffucci

That is a interesting story, David.

I think most people wouldnt get into the Brushless truggy scene since they have to look around for parts, think of ideas, incorporate into real life and most effective part is the cost. They are pretty expensive, which probably is not the most attractive peice of the BL scene.

I think it is just people are lazy; If someone made them a race ready BL truggy for 600 bucks, you might as well say GOOD BYE NITRO! In the normal nitro forms, they just buy them, tune them, and race.

I domt think the BL group will ever be higher than the nitro, maybe sometime in the future, but for now, like you stated, i think it is just a lost battle.

Personally, I think it's only a matter of time before BL becomes more of the norm. Of course, you're gonna have the die-hard Nitro guys, but with the prices coming down and selection of BL components going up and battery technology getting better and better all the time, electric will become more commonplace. Some manufacturers are even coming out stock BL systems now.

Some of it is the fact people don't realize where to get the parts or how to use them, or get turned off by all the different jargon. It seems like whenever I'm at my LHS track just playing around, I spend a lot of time explaining what BL is all about and the fact that it's not as hard to use/build as they might think. I know of several times people left these conversations with ideas in their head. It's just a matter of educating them and referring them here. You say electric R/C to many people and they automatically think Niko or Tyco, and think "electrics are toys, gas powered is where the real power is".

The smoke and mosquito-like buzz of the Nitro vehicles draws the crowds, but it seems the BL vehicles it what keeps them there.

I think that most tracks never had an electric class like yours.... except briefly when the emaxx hit the scene. Most tracks are dominated by the truggies... with the "stock" monster truck class being the little brother... mostly revos and a few leftover modded tmaxxes.

At the tracks I have been to the emaxx racing died out 3-4 years ago. I see an emaxx in the mt class on a rare occasion. But for me, I have been the lone ranger wheever I show up.

I guess consider yourself lucky ot have had a good class of e-trucks all this time. I know there are pockets of e-truck racers, but it's not the norm.

Edit: I see in the latest RCCA they highlight an indoor track in MI that even has an electric 1/8 buggy class. That's pretty cool. I have heard some guys at my track who would like to see that after watching my car... some have said they would do it if there was enough support... and the technology finally catches up (Monster Max....)

There's also a major psychological thing to look past when running electric. Many people have the idea imprinted in their head that "electric motors are for Tyco's meant for 5 year olds and Nitro motors are for the big boys."

Even after someone blows by them doing Mach 6 with their BL MT, they sometimes won't accept that electric is better.

I was driving my G2R once and my buddy was driving my 2.5R and even though the G2R was making the 2.5R look like a snail the guy watching was still interested in the 2.5R (asked all his questions about that) and still thought the 2.5R was faster...

I actually think that the electric class is just beginning. Its just that people around here on RCM are kinda on the leading edge of the electric MT and 1/8 classes. There aren't many around cuz, with he exception of the emaxx, you cant go buy one,drop batteries in it and run. And the Emaxx in stock form is very outdated.

With the power of brushless and the rate the technology is advancing, especially on the battery side of things its only a matter of time before one of the large companies sees the potential and releases a RTR brushless electric. Its going to take this for it to ever truely become a consistent class. Lets face it, the nitros we all see running around at the local tracks are pretty much off the shelf trucks with some aftermarket parts purchased to suit the taste of the owner. The electric monster truck and 1/8s are much more custom machines at this point and it takes a certain kind of person to build these trucks.

The whole world is going RTR and the electric trucks just aren't there. I'd be willing to bet that in the next year one of the big manufacturers releases a new electric vehicle that will start a landslide moving toward electric again.

If you remember 15 years ago the electric class dominated everything and the only way to run nitros was to convert an electric to nitro with one of the Duratrax conversion kits. Then Assosciated released the RC10GT and the rest is history because nitro offered more power than the electrics. (There is a good article outlining the rise of nitro in RCCA this month on page 30)

Now the tables are turning again. The electrics offer more power and with lipo longer non stop run time than nitro could hope for. All its gonna take is one!!!!

(BTW: If I was a betting man I would say we will see an electric 1/8 buggy released before to long. Its the natural cuz its the most popular racing class and it also is on the lighter side of the larger scale vehicles so the brushless power would be an easier step from the 1/10 electric systems we see now.)

I must agree jhautz. I think electric is getting more and more popular after brusheless is getting more common.

The lack of races for electric monsters is even worse where I live (Denmark, Europe). I have tried several times to give me the chance to race the nitro class, even said it was ok if I didn´t participated officially, but just ran the races. But no it is only allowed to drive the nitros, even though there are only 5 - 10 racers competing!

Most people are impressed with BL vehicles because of the power, speed etc but they are turned off because of the high initial costs of the electronics and the lack of racing classes for the vehicle.
Why invest a large sum of money when there's no class to race in? :007:
I've always been the lone ranger at the races as well so I've always raced with the nitro guys.
Some guys actually ask me when I'm going to convert to gas. I usually tell them, "When hell freezes over"
It doesn't matter how many times I lap or beat the nitro guys, they won't convert to BL until it makes more sense. Once the prices are more reasonable and RTR's are available, we'll start seeing the transition from gas back to electric.

That's pretty unfair if they don't let you race with the nitro's, especially if your just going to race for fun and not for points...maybe there scared of electric.:027:
I don't see any harm in an electric car racing against nitro.
Luckily my track is only electric, and the reason they don't let nitro cars race is because it's too noisy. Since we race outdoors on Friday nights (can finish around 11 pm) near houses there would be lots of complaints about the noise.
A lot of people are interested in the E-maxx's at our track, but not that many buy them, because there scared off by the price off the brushless ones. And you can't just buy one, take it out of the box and race competively like nitro. You have too build it from individual parts, which take alot of time and money.
Like jhautz said, once someone builds an out of the box brushless truck that compares to nitro in both cost and peformance, then I think electric will become a lot more popular.

Dam I didn't see starscream's reply.

While on this topic... I must say that I am very tempted to put a nitro back in at least one car. Why?

I have the chance to run some bigtime races and I don't think I will be able to with the BL. I'm afraid I will see Klausen's deal... they won't let me even if I say I will forfeit any points/position I get.

It's the rcpro series... and all three in my region are pretty close. There is alos the ROAR regionals... and the ROAR Nats are about 5-6 hours away this year in StLouis.

A local trophy race isn't usually a problem but sanctioned races I think will be.

Sucks if you really want to race. Until now I have been happy to just run a few times locally each year. But I'm not sure this year...

I agree with many comments above btw... I won't be surprised to see electric take back the hobby in the future. But it's not there now.

Give it time pretty soon there will be a lot of people using these things Brushless, Lipo, and 2.4 spektrum and nomadio radios are the future. Many people are spektable but when time comes everybody will be running these things and there will be lots of these races and they will be funner and longer than the nitro ones the way lipos are going with 1 hour rumtimes. In time this issue will be the thing of the past. It will not happen over night but it will change. For example about 1,2 the hot setup people were talking about on the maxx was 14 cells and modified motors now you hardly hear anybody around here talk about brushed motors in there maxxx. Things will change the future is comming. But i do think the new owner should be as cool as the last about racing becuase this kind of stuff is for fun.

Hey,

Interesting. I was in a Hobbytown the other day and the clerk asked me if I really like electric better than nitro. I replied yes, the high end brushless I like better. He sort of looked at me puzzled. I bet he has never even really been exposed to brushless in high power forms.

One factor I think that limits the transition to electric is the extreme start-up costs involved. With nitro, it seems the costs are just as high, but they come over a period of time. To begin with electric, you need the vehicle, charger, lipos, etc. The cost of all this can be pretty staggering.

Over on lstforums.com there were a bunch of people interested in the conversion of the LST to electric. However, once they see how much it will cost to actually do a nice conversion I think they become turned off by the cost. Also, most of these guys are accustomed to nitro runtime, which is basically unlimited to a point, so they would need to buy several lipos in order to reach that runtime. This means the cost increases even more. IMHO

-Chris

Thank you all for your replies. I know that here, at RC-Monster.com, you and I are largely in the same boat. It's sad to hear others talk about being the only one to show up with a E-Truck. Nice to know that you guys are out there...The track I race at (Xtreme RC in New Milford CT) hosted a special electric race last year sponsored by RCCA called the "Battery Blast" it was a day of only electric. We had a decent E-MT class as well as the usual 4WD, 10th buggy and truck as well as some others. I also know last year our own RC Monster Mike hosted a race (which I unfortunately missed) where many of you came together and raced. If that race is run again this year I will be there. However despite the innovations in brushless technology and especially battery technology I'm just not seeing growth at the track.

Cost and effort are high barriors to entry into this class. I guess I was holding out hope that the coverage of the E-Revo in the Magazines coupled with Mike's selling the whole Roller for a reasonable price would lead to more people buying in but it just isn't happening. I had hoped that other pre-made electric conversion trucks would spur the racing scene but there too I've seen a handfull at various times rather than classes full of them. I just don't know what it's going to take...is there anything on the horizon which could help save the class?

My own approach this year is going to be twofold. I'm making an appeal to the "revo" or standard monster truck guys at my track to see if they will let me race with them when nothing is on the line, no points, no trophies just racing for fun. If they will have me I'm going to try and get some new batteries which will let me get 15 minutes of racing out of a charge. If they won't I'll run my Nitro Truggy every other week and try the same plan with the E-CRT. Hopefully we can still have a full class at this year's Monster Madness race. I may even resurrect my old E-Maxx beacuse surely they will let me run that old dog with the Revo's.

That and I'll keep hoping that something main stream happens to breathe new life into the E-MT class. Traxxas has updated their whole line, save the E-Maxx, maybe it will get refreshed. Even if it is given the 3.3 treatment with an HV-Maxx setup it will help. Of course a full blown Traxxas branded E-Revo with a brushless setup out of the box will also be a nice step but I'll take any positive changes possible. Heck I'd love to see Tamiya Electrify some of their line up...my first was a Grasshopper and I'd love to go back to big T....that new Truggy they released would be great in an electric version...

DM

Man I've never agreed more with almost every thing above. I think there is a fix to the problem for the most part. Traxxas builds an E Revo with brushed motors RTR and maybe just a roller. And then when CC comes out with the MMM system it would be a no brainer.

I don't think a factory brushless truck would help much due to the high initial cost. But I think people would buy an electric race type truck with the plans of switching it to BL in the future. I could be wrong(it would be the first time). LOL And with the popularity(at least around my area) of the MM the MMM would have a good reputation of being the right choice.

As pointed out already, When I showed up with my G2R at the track people were in awe(and that was with the Novak HV6.5/4800 orions). We Have both an dirt Oval and offroad track and the Oval is a big hit. First time out I broke the MT/truggy class record and came within a few seconds of breaking the overall track record. I even tell them that this system is just the beginning of what is possible. Several people wanted one of there own but as this next outdoor season comes around there is no talk of anybody at our track endeavoring to build one.

I agree, even after passing the 3.3 Revo guy like it was running out of fuel they just seem to ignore it. For instance one die hard Nitro guy I race with says that electric motors are just not supposed to be in MT's. He says that the song goes: "The engine in the bus makes the wheels go round not the electric motor".

I also am a loner at the track running with the nitros but so far they let me run, but at a big "Nitro trophy race" they organized, the powers at be didn't want me to run. So I didn't press the issue so as to not make enemies. When I showed up to pit for my nephew I had several people ask m,e why I wasn't running.

Now I'm gonna show up with an 1/8 buggy and as far as I know I will be the only one. And yes I'm gonna try to get a bunch of RC-Monster decals on her. I think for the most part Sylvester is right that it comes down to people being lazy. We just want to plug the PS3 in and sit on the couch. Later, Stephen.

Like others have said, I think when manufacturers start pushing electric ready kits out, large electric cars will grow in popularity. Same thing happened in the E-heli scene. About 2 years ago the only way to get an electric heli larger than 500mm was to spend thousands on a custom kit, or to convert a nitro powered Raptor, Hawk, etc. The conversion scene was similar to here, only conversions were easier due to a few people making conversion kits. But when Century released their Swift at a killer price, Mikado dropped the price of their Logo helis (both electric out the box). Then came Align with their Trex600, and the Raptor E550. At the same time Lipo and motor prices have dropped considerably. There are now no less than 5 very well priced out of the box large electric helis all competing with each other. It's never been easier and cheaper to get a big electric heli. Well electric gear is pretty cheap now so it's really upto car manufacturers to start pushing electric kits.

I think people don't realise that although nitro might be easier and cheaper to get going initially, it's arguably more expensive and more maintenance prone in the long run. Electric is a bliss in comparison!

Our time shall come.......eventually. But i think ROAR is really slowing us down. If brushless mt or 1/8th were allowed, i bet more people would want to do that and manufacturers will jump at teh occasion and create race worthy electric trucks to meet the demand.

If there are vehicles available and interest, ROAR will create a class.

I think the more people get exposed to electric the more it will catch on. I was totally nitro until about two days ago when I finally got my bl maxx built. After the first slide down the pavement on my lid after a fistfull of throttle, I decided I was hooked. Plus the ease of just charging some batteries and no tuning. Who wouldnt love it. We all need to take vids of our trucks and post them everywhere we can so we get noticed.

Man I would be happy with 3 electrics at my local track. One nitro guy refuses to race if they allow me to run electric in the nitro class. The only way to help the issue is to talk to the big event people....and come in droves.

There is a race coming up at "The Farm2", and they are going to allow 1/10 stadium trucks to race there for the first time...was die hard nitro. Pretty cool, the electrics have a 20 minute main which is awesome. If we had the backing we could run the monsters out there, but showing up with 3 trucks wont impress them very much.

Welcome to the "dark side".

Another thing that holds us back, is the inherint fear of the instability of Lipo's. My track is littered with stories of flyboys blowing up lipo's and they don't want them in a race, for safety purposes. I tell them thats all in the individual, but it falls on deaf ears. My track owner is slowly turning, but it will take outlawing the non green batteries to allow LIPO's to take over (lipo's can be thrown away after proper discharge). My track owner is looking into the A123 and the hardshell LIPO's as possible batteries to allow at his track, I'm pushing for the LIMN as well because the A123 don't fit well in my stadium trucks

Does anyone have any inside line to info at Traxxas...are they planning a refresh for the E-Maxx or even an all new E-Revo? I've actually got to agree that while now day's I'm hooked on Brushless, I did race with the titans for the first year and a half - and did very well with them. Perhaps brushless doesn't need to be part of the RTR trim. Plus it makes for a nice upgrade option AND it rewards the innovative companies making the current crop of excellent motors and speedo's by giving them a market.

I just don't know what Traxxas is waiting for...

DM

I agree on the LiPo safety issue - though one of the safest LiPo options out there also saw great ink in the big magazines - FMA Scorpion. It was basically a matched system, LiPo packs, charger which also did the balancing as well as an integrated Low-Voltage-Cutoff. The price was not bad at all and the performance was great. Yet FMA didn't sell well and eventually exited the surface market. (I ran - actually still run their stuff so I know it very well)

I suppose it's hard for companies to pour R&D money into battery products for a market which almost doesn't exist. It's almost like putting the cart before the horse.

DM

They are pretty tight lipped at traxxas, we talked to Slayden, and he knows a little something about whats planned but wont say anything

All we need is a few big names willing to travel to NC (central east coast, nice tracks) and we could start something big. We need to set our own rules and follow them, and once the rules work, and everyone is happy...then stuff will happen. I can bring 4 trucks, we need around 20 to get any notice. I can put together the electric monster nationals, but I need people to show up...:002:

I really want a crack at you Mafucci, and Mike on a good weekend. The last minute stuff never works in my favor... :dft012:

I would love a crack at ya'all too but I don't see traveling half way across the country... probably ever, for r/c. Maybe someday if I have a ton of disposable income I could justify it.

Man if I was single... :D

I got two MT's and a stadium truck all with brushless and lipo, and would love to tie it up with a few like minded people

In order for electric RC to really take off I think the RC companies need to produce electrics that are the same caliber as the nitros. Lets face it, the best vehicles are nitros converted to electrics because they are built better than their electric counterparts (for the most part). I look at the electric RTR MTs etc and they pale in comparison to what you can get in a nitro form. Look at what comes stock on a LST2. If a company were to produce an electic rc that came with those features, then I think electric would start to gain in reputation. All IMHO.

Team losi did it with there stadium truck. they put a novak bl sport system on it. I have seen many reviews on it in rc magazines. It also scored good overall because it was the perfect package for racing and for newbs to get into the hobby without doing anying. Im some times also asking myself why is nitro so special. About everythingh i search on youtube, is usually nitro and those 1/8th's. You would have to search specificly. I dont even think traxxas wil EVER make rollers to sell, It's kind of obvious that they will allways make rtr's. Yeah over time prices for BL and high end batterys will go down, and electric rc products in general. And nitro will definatly get less and less popular.

Over at my track it all electric. No nitro's. And im glad they made the disision to disinclude them. Now i start to see over here that the 1/10 4wd Electric buggys are getting in the norm. Same with the 1/10 st's and 1/10 buggies! But there they still havent fully seen what BL is.(I dont think many people seen the power of bl).

Untill then.....Mike,

Same calliber.?.?.?.BL,There better! only thing is the price.:007:

Where in Georgia are you? We can get a handful of brushless monsters at any given time (I am in Georgia as well). We will have a large event coming up soon, I will keep ya posted when I know a date.

I would love to see an E-MT class but I think it depends on when and if Traxxes releases an E-Revo for the masses. I built an E-Savage and took it to the track on race day just for fun and turned some heads. It is acually a pretty easy E-monster to get Race-like performance from. Mods

-Pro-line maxx dish offset rims (makes for wider stance)
- fuel tubing in shocks to lower stance
- Maxx Crimefighter tires
-Mamba max / Feigao 540 9L + ubec
- dual Mmaxamps 2s 4000 lipos.
- Spektrum reciever for my radio

The truck comes out at only 8 lb. 4 oz. with that setup. Nothing spectacular performance-wise but it is enough power to make nitro people change thier old thought process when they see a large vehicle moving that well under electric power.
Less than $800 for everything and a radio, batteries, and charger that came with truck to sell.

I'm in North Carolina and racing is huge here but it is 95% nitro for off-road. There are tracks everywhere with new ones popping up all the time. The 5% electric is the Pro-Truck class that I race. We will be at the Farm 2 this year with 30+ entries likely. Pro truck = 1/10th staduim trucks tricked out with BL/lipo and 20 minute mains . This class is now at the point where it can stand on it's own in the area with pretty much every track supporting the class. I'd love to see it go mainstream. It would be ironic if it did since it was born here in the middle of "Nitro rules all" land. LOL

One guy started the class and has promoted the heck out of it untill it stuck. The point is starting a new E class can be done but a lot of nitro guys are hard-headed and some litteraly try to stop electric classes from thriving. A lot of the guys around here hate us and believe electric is ruining racing. Mission accomplished. LOL

If we could get some big name nitro racers using brushless, than we could probably get some attention.

Brushless aint that expensive. I think it costed me a good 400-500 for my setup.

2 of us will be heading up for that race, cant wait.

I live in Warner Robins, about 15 miles south of Macon. Where abouts do you live? I always thought with your connection to Hippie , you lived in Florida. And let me know when you get things setup, I'd like to jion in. I don't tote as much power as you guys, so i'll just have to hope my driving makes up for it

Scoob, you're right, it is on the cusp of going mainstream. What we do for promption is what will determine the existence of brushless and lipo. Just because ROAR banned them, doesn't mean if we get enough people, with like thoughts together and start our own league of racers

If a big player like Losi or Associated makes a 1/8 electric version... then it would be big.

I know the CC is interested in hooking up with a company like that to do a rtr with their system.

I think someday we will see that... either a kit of rtr electric 1/8.

I could see a Monster max on 4s with a 2500KV motor rocking the foundation of Nitro

Yeah, can you imagine a factory Team Associated 1/8 buggy and truggy out of the box with a MMM system and some nice battery trays just waiting for your choice of cells?

That would be huge...

yeeeeaaaahhhhh:004:

Just making sure you know to pre-enter. The cutt-off is 150 entries. Here's the link http://www.thefarm2.com/ . Still 90+ spots available.

I won't be at round one but will be at the rest. It's going to be a blast.:027: