Airing some Dirty Laundry
 

Ok, I usually do not do this, but I figured a little "heads up" to the other forum members would be cool here.

Watch out for T-Bro...

Some back story here: We worked out a deal, he traded me a plett motor and some cash for 2 lipos, a 4s and a 6s 5000 mah 25c flightpower packs. Both packs were brand new, and all 10 cells were matched. I mailed him the packs, and received the motor and cash.

He used the 6s pack once, and then tried to charge it. He is using an astro 109. Well, he could not get the charger to charge the pack as a 6s pack, only as a 5s pack (the astro "automatically" detects the number of cells, you cannot set this manually).

From the beginning he insisted it was a bad pack, and wanted me to replace the pack, ie send him a new 6s pack. I told him to return the pack to me and I would have a look at it. He made me pay for return shipping.

When I received the pack it was in decent balance, and had about 3.5v per cell. I did not do anything to the pack, just plugged it into the hyperion 610I charger I have and set the charger to charge a 5000mah 6s pack at 5amps. About 1 hour later the charger beeped. The pack was fully charged and in balance. Took 4622 mah back in.

I have let the pack sit charged now for more than 2 weeks and it has not gone out of balance or otherwise had issues. I sent him an email and a pm with the info that I had, and stated that there was nothing wrong with the pack. He did not reply.

So I get an email a day or so ago from him (it has been at least 3 weeks now, maybe more) asking if I had sent him a replacement pack. I said he needed to re-read my last email with the info.

Now he is giving me a hard time saying that I told him I would replace the pack, and that he does not want the pack back. He said that I am trying to get out of the deal we made (I told him I would replace the pack, should there be an issue with it, such as a defective cell). I have re-read the emails and can see that he was angling for a new pack from the get go, and that I made it clear that I wanted to have the "bad" pack in my hands before I made a decision.

The way I see it, he is using an esc w/o a lvc, schulze, and he is using an old charger, astro 109 w/blinky. Given the astro 109's cell detection he most likely ran the pack under 3v per cell and the charger thought it was a 5s pack due to the low voltage. So that is why it did not properly charge the pack. Or the charge has some other issues, but he says it works fine with other packs (and it may well work fine).

Since the pack has charged fine, and not self discharged it is fine. No physical damage to the pack either, so it had not been physically abused.

I told him yesterday that I would send the pack back to him (as it is his pack) but he would have to pay for shipping, and that I would like to be reimbursed for what I paid to ship the pack back to me in the first place. He balked at that, and now wants a full refund, ie, his motor and cash back. My issue with that is that I traded him brand new lipos, and will be getting back used ones, plus I have no idea if he has much idea about how to properly care for these lipos (evident in that he appears to have run the 6s under voltage), plus his equipment (charger setup and esc) is not really up to task to use lipo. Plus a trade is a trade, and I view it that way. I have not run the plett, but I take it on good faith that it is not roasted or has issues. I kept up my end of the deal by sending him new lipos, but I cannot be held responsible for what he does with them. And there is nothing wrong with the 6s pack, so I do not see why he has to have a new one from me...

Not looking for anyone to side with me here, but I would appreciate some input on this situation. Do you guys think I am handling this correctly? I have not done anything wrong (in my opinion) but a 3rd party perspective is always a good idea.

I would like to hear his side of the story, but it sounds like user error to me...

he should be happy that you checked his pack out for him.

It would be good if he would post his thoughts. I could post the email correspondence, but that would take up quite a bit of space.

good job sticking to the facts, and going out on a limb for him when u didnt have to, but because u are someone that stands behind his trades/sales. but that does not mean u should be jerked around by someone willing to take advantage of someone willing to try and make things right

Sounds to me like a misunderstanding. I have dealt with T-Bro off and on for years - he has always been straightforward, honest and very respectful in emails as well as on the phone. Based on your side of the story, I don't see how you are at fault or responsible for anything beyond what you have done. It is certainly possible that Travis over-discharged the pack and caused the issue described, but without his side of the story, I personally will reserve judgement.
My thoughts are that more communication is needed between you, as I see both parties as amicable based on my experience. :)

linc i would do whatever u think is right, definitely continue to try making contact and resolve things like adults, hopefull this will all work out, for both sides. but if all else fails i would eat the shipping send him his pack and avoid further transactions with him.

I had a couple of trades w/ Travis and it worked out well (sold him new lipos.) I will say he did contact me a few weeks ago complaining about the packs and they won't charge as 6s.
First off he was confusing me w/ someone else, as the packs I sold were earlier this year, but I wanted to help him out anyway as the original trade was smooth and he seems like a decent guy.
Second tho was I tried to explain to him, over several PMs, it was mostly due to the inflexibility of his charger, not necc something wrong w/ the pack. Auto-detect will default to the lower cell count if the voltage reading is in an area of overlap for safety reasons. (ie 16V: could be 5S @3.2v/cell or 4S @ 4V.)
Most chargers you can override it to go to higher cell count, but didn't seem like the 109 could do that. I'm not sure he really ever bought into that point and seemed convinced the cells were bad. IDK either way. He told me he was off to talk to whomever sold him the cells.
I haven't used a AF109 specifically so I don't know how/if you can override the cell count.

Hopefully you get this worked out ok. My money is on misunderstanding.

My 2cents,
Sounds like a little miscommunication/misunderstanding, I agree that his lipo tools may not be up to snuff for proper lipo care but it's not your fault. The 6s checks out Ok,eat the shipping and send it back and wash your hands of the matter. No ones getting taken advantage of except maybe you for the S&H charges but thats the price we all pay sometimes for bartering or buying used and wanting the transaction to be civilized and have contentment by both parties.

Thanks for your input Mike. I have tried to understand his issue, but not really had much success. I have owned a 109 charger and was not too fond of the limited abilities. Plus I found out how it completes its CV portion of the charge and that sounds a bit questionable. Just old technology. I think that you really need a charger with an internal balancer that "talks" to the charger to have a truly foolproof charging setup.

Yeah, I guess I may have to eat the shipping. I tried to tell him that his charger was causing the issue before he sent the pack back to me, but he got a bit excited that I was "calling out" his charger... I figured that I would be the best person to diagnose the problem. Since there is no problem on my end with the pack I can only assume it was run under voltage and the charger would not read it as a 6s.

I think you have hit the nail on the head Ryan. Thanks for sharing that info with me. My money is on the charger having an issue.

Thats a familiar sounding charger issue to me, happens pretty much every time I run my truck & then recharge the batts:

The cell voltage drops below nominal levels (~3.7v), so when you put it on the charger, it detects my 5s packs as 4s packs, and my 6s A123 packs as 5s packs.

All you have to do is charge the packs as whatever the charger detects them as until the voltage level rises to the nominal level for each cell (3.7v for lipos, or 3.3v for A123s). Once this level is reached, stop the charge, then restart it & as if by magic the charger will detect the correct number of cells, and you can finish charging the packs until they reach 4.2v (or ~3.65v for A123s) per cell.

It would seem to me that T-Bro didnt realise this, and when his old, outdated charger registered the number of cells incorrectly after possibly over discharging them ( or not, since the voltage only has to rest below nominal levels, not below dangerous levels ), he panicked and accused Linc of sending him bad packs- which they clearly arent.

User error, plain and simple- he has no reason to demand new lipos or to cancel the whole trade, he just needs to get an upto date charger and esc or lvc device, and read my cure for incorrect cell count detection on chargers with auto-detect software.

I had the same issues as Neil described trying to use my Superbrain charging lipo's and A123's also. As soon as I determined what was going on (I believe with Linc and Brians help), I ordered my Hyperion Duo. I sleep much better now....

sleeping off the night before 'cause when the sun goes down i'll be back for more..."thats all I have to say about that" wise words of forrest gump

Yeah, that 109's "pulse charging" during the CV phase is questionable to me too. I'm sure it works, but sounds more like the engineers took their NiMH algorithm and made a quick-and-dirty alteration to charge lipos without bothering to integrate a true CC/CV charge profile. Really, all they needed to do is use their CC scheme, and when the cells reaches 4.2v, have the processor closely monitor the voltage and adjust the current accordingly. Still technically a CC charge, but adapted to look like a CV charge.

A Trade is a Trade. Now if it was a sale, than it would of been different. I've dealt with Linc before and he is a straight up fellow. It seems like the TBro charger, is the culprit of the battery not being detected properly.

Only having dealt with linc that's the only part I can comment on as well. I have done several deals with linc and all have been top notch and spot on. Like snellemin said a trade is a trade and if I know that if linc says the pack is good, it's good.

I think as was said before the best bet is to send the pack back and pay for the shipping and be done. Your out a few bucks but you'll sleep better at night knowing you did the right thing.