Please help a lost nitro guy convert to BL!!

[mk351e]

OK boys and girls, this is gonna be a long one, so be patient! I've been putzing around with nitro for some time and I like it; but I REALLY like the idea of BL!! I want to get a Losi Muggy this summer, and I would like to convert that. Problem is, quite frankly, I don't know where to start. This electric stuff is too damn complicated nowadays, and to top it off, when you read the 4 million threads on the web, 95% of what you guys are talking about looks like it's written in another language to a nitro guy!! TONS of abbreviations make it impossible for newbies! As if all that's not enough, there doesn't seem to be one place that really carries everything, there's lot of different manufacturers, and much of this stuff appears to NOT be for cars and trucks! Argh!

Anyway, I need some suggestions. Everyone seems to rave about these Neu motors, but man they're expensive. I'll get one if they really are that good, but are they??

Here's what I want to do: I want a Muggy, and I want it to go fast. REALLY fast. Faster than my Italian big block powered 1/8 nitro buggy fast. I want strong acceleration, but I don't need to do wheelies that flip the truck on a dime and throw it down the street because of all the power. A wheelie here and there is good enough. I want it to be reliable; I don't like maintenance (hence, the move away from nitro), and I need long runtimes: about 45min on 1 charge.

I'm guessing: one of those Neu motors (which one????), and a 6S 10000 LiPo, but from what company?? Also, I need a charger. What is good, cheap, and can plug into a wall???? What ESC?? What gears, and where to get them? My reason for wanting 6S: every video I see on youtube looks slow unless it's 6S in whatever vehicle.

Here's what I CAN handle figuring out: building, making it fit, suspension, custom cooling, radio stuff, etc. Basically, anything NOT related to BL/LiPo.

Here's how I'll use it: NO racing, occasional dirt track use with one other person, blasting across the lawn, some jumping, and lots of high speed passes up and down the block! LOTS of WOT!!! Not much "bashing", I don't like to break stuff.

So please help! It's driving me nuts! There's only 5 things to pick out here, and yet I'm baffled!

[mk351e]

forgot to mention: are maxamps lipos ok??? also, would the novak hv4.5 system fit my needs? My guess is no, but it seems pretty simple to set up.

[glassdoctor]

Neu 1515 2D (2050kv... which is rpm per volt) or 1Y (2200kv).

Castle Monster Max (no brainer IMO... absolutely the easiest and best if it's as advertised)

I would go with two 6s 4000-5000mah packs and wire them in parallel to get 9000-10,000 mah. With that much battery, I think you don't HAVE to have the best battery money can buy, and there are plenty to choose from. The Neu packs and Enerland based packs (polyquest, flightpower etc) are popular... or the Maxamps 5000s will be fine too IMO. (Not as bad as some here claim)

Charger: I suggest you get a power supply so you can pick from any charger and not just the very few that are AC/DC. Even a cheap computer power supply can work.

[glassdoctor]

Originally Posted by mk351e

forgot to mention: are maxamps lipos ok??? also, would the novak hv4.5 system fit my needs? My guess is no, but it seems pretty simple to set up.

Novak system: NO!!!

Maxamps: 9-10K mah... probably fine IMO but I'll warn you there are some maxamps haters here.

[lincpimp]

Here is a though from the "maxamps hater":

For 45 min runtimes, 6s lipo will be a must and most likely more than 6000mah if you want to gear for 45mph+.

The neu 1515 is a great motor, and your best bet to work properly during a 45min run. I would choose the 2000kv model. On neu motors the max rpm they can handle is around 50k rpm (maybe more?). A 2000kv (rpm per volt is what kv relates to) motor on 6s lipo (22.2volts nominal) is turning 44400rpm, which is fine (with a high quality neu motor).

You should be able to use the stock muggy pinion and spur ratio, and the faster turning motor, compared to the stock nitro mill, will provide the extra speed you desire. However it is always good to gear lower during the first few tests to check temps and then gear up until you find gearing that runs well and does not overload the electronics. Electric will keep making power the more you gear up, but there is a limit when stuff starts to get too hot. Keep that in mind. Not to discourage you, as a much less powerful system than this will easily make a nitro motor (any brand) seem slow and weak.

The choice to use motor brakes, or mech brakes is your choice. Mike here at rcm makes a motor mount for the muggy that will allow both, but you will most likely have to fabricate a new servo tray to fit the brake servo.

If you opt to go with motor brakes, esc choice will be important. The quark 125b is only good for 5s with motor brakes, and may get too hot during those long runs. A mgm esc is the best bet right now, but the castle creations soon to be released monster max should also work well with 6s and motor brakes.

Not sure if a muggy has enough room to mount 2 battery trays, so battery choice may be difficut.

*CAUTION* here comes the maxamps hating part:

If there is one thing I can urge you to buy is good batteries. You have an ambitious project, and require the best equipment to reach your goals. Your batteries are going to determine the performance of your setup. Big power requires the best batteries, and Maxamps is just not the best. Neuenergy, Flightpower, Polyquest, or Polyrc are all made with enerland cells. Those are the some of best cells out there. Plus I do know for a fact that those listed mfgs have better matching processes than maxamps do (please do not ask how I know this, but I made effort to find this out for my own satisfaction, and have no reason to doubt my sources).

Most likely a pair of 3700 25c 6s flightpower packs wired in parallel for 7400 total mah at 6s will be enough to meet your goals. I am specualting here, as you may need more depending on how fast you want to go. Personally I would buy a pair of 5000 25c 6s packs and just run 1 at a time, for weight savings. It only takes 30secs or so to change a battery. More weight equals more load and less runtime, so you may need to go up to 9000 to 10000 mah total to reach your goal. You will have a heavy truck with that battery load

All in all it sounds like a fun project, keep us informed!

I have a questions for people runnning 5S or 6S lipos? Do you take into account the weight or just go for a more efficient system?

All I do is bash, 3' to 7' high jumps most of the time. Do you 6S guys do that? Just wondering.

45min to 1hr runtimes are a must, so far I found 4S 8000mah's do really well for my needs.

[mk351e]

thanx for the responses guys, keep em' comin!! I'm collecting opinions!

lincpimp: good point about the brakes. I think I'm gonna go mechanical: just seems like it would make the motor and ESC last longer if they didn't have to stop a 12 pound truck too! Also, thanx for bringing up just getting 2 packs: I really never thought of it! DOH!! See what I mean? I've been inhaling WAAAY too much nitro fumes!

but, uh, do I need anything else to do mech. brakes? I have a 3 channel spektrum radio and esc, and of course, extra digital servos

[glassdoctor]

For brakes you just need a Y-splitter for the throttle channel to plug in both the ESC and brake servo. There may be fancier ways to do it but that should work fine.

About the batteries: If you want a lighter battery (less capacity mah, like 5000 or 6000mah) I would agree to go with a top of the line pack for this project. The 3700mah packs in parallel lincpimp mentions would be a nice setup.

But if you are talking 10,000mah, even a 15c pack will hold good voltage at 100+ amps. TrueRC and Maxamps both would work if you want to save a few bucks. I have a 12000mah maxamps pack and it barely breaks a sweat in my Jammin CRT. But it's also kinda fat for racing, lol.

[lincpimp]

Originally Posted by bluonyx

I have a questions for people runnning 5S or 6S lipos? Do you take into account the weight or just go for a more efficient system?

All I do is bash, 3' to 7' high jumps most of the time. Do you 6S guys do that? Just wondering.

45min to 1hr runtimes are a must, so far I found 4S 8000mah's do really well for my needs.

Well, if you go from 4s to 6s you can maintain the same weight battery, it will have less capacity, but runtimes will be equal or slightly better. Plus the equipment will run cooler (considering it is geared correctly and also fits the intended voltage). Also, overall power will be more, and I notice that poer and toeque at higher speeds seem to be more than with a 4s setup.

I bash just as hard with my lv systems as the hv ones. Personally I really like 5s with a quark esc and a higher end motor (aveox, hacker, etc). Seems to be the best for bashing on a budget given current battery technology. I am sure that 5s and 6s setups will be more popular after the MMM has been released and gained acceptance.

[lincpimp]

Originally Posted by glassdoctor

For brakes you just need a Y-splitter for the throttle channel to plug in both the ESC and brake servo. There may be fancier ways to do it but that should work fine.

About the batteries: If you want a lighter battery (less capacity mah, like 5000 or 6000mah) I would agree to go with a top of the line pack for this project. The 3700mah packs in parallel lincpimp mentions would be a nice setup.

But if you are talking 10,000mah, even a 15c pack will hold good voltage at 100+ amps. TrueRC and Maxamps both would work if you want to save a few bucks. I have a 12000mah maxamps pack and it barely breaks a sweat in my Jammin CRT. But it's also kinda fat for racing, lol.

Not really sure if the maxamps packs are any cheaper than the flightpower. A 5000 4s maxamps pack is 194, while and exolite 5350 4s flightpower is 215. Similar specs, and about 20 bucks difference. Go to 6s and the maxamps 5k packs is 284, while the better rated 5000 25c flightpower is 299, 15 bucks more for a much better pack.

I know whick pack I would buy, and I think that I know what everyone else who sees this would choose.

Since the maxamps 10000 loose cells are on sale, they are a good deal, not much else on maxamps site is. BTW the 10000 cells are rated at 10c, and that is all they are good for.

Most maxamps users (on this forum with a heavy vehicle) have the 8000 packs, which should perform well, as most setups do not get close to 160 amps cont. I think that the maxamps 4000 cells are about 15c cont before voltage starts to take a dump, so 120 amps cont for the 8000 packs is good for almost any 4s setup that is not overgeared.

[jhautz]

Originally Posted by bluonyx

I have a questions for people runnning 5S or 6S lipos? Do you take into account the weight or just go for a more efficient system?

All I do is bash, 3' to 7' high jumps most of the time. Do you 6S guys do that? Just wondering.

45min to 1hr runtimes are a must, so far I found 4S 8000mah's do really well for my needs.

You can get the same run time on lower mah packs when you go up in voltage. You use a lower kv motor so the system put out the same amount of power over all, but more of it is generated with volts rather than amps.

Heres how I figure relative run time for 4s to 5s to 6s... Multiply the nominal voltage by the mah of the pack and that gives you a total potential energy for the pack. A 4s system with a proper motor and gearing with a total potential energy number similar to a properly set up 5s or 6s system using a battery with a similar total potentail energy should give you similar run times and the pack weight really should be close to the same as well.

4s 8000mah= 14.8V * 8Ah = 118.4 Watt Hours
5s 6000mah= 18.5 * 6Ah = 111 Watt Hours
6s 5000mah= 22.2 * 5Ah = 111 Watt Hours

The difference is rather than running the same motor and spinning it faster you should be choosing a lower kv motor for the higher voltage and spinning it about the same total rpm (or manybe even a little less since the higher voltage with provide higher torque that would allow you to gear up a bit) so you can creat about the same averall speed and run time. The diference is you are creating more of the power with voltage rather than amps.

remeber V * A = Watts (power)

Not sure if I did a great job of explaining this, but I think you will understand what I'm talking about.

[glassdoctor]

I usually consider Maxamps prices at 10% off their listed price, since you can get that if you sign up for their "discount membeship" and spend $100. It does make a difference when it's a $284 pack that's now $255.60... or $241.40 if you spend $500 with them.

But I agree their prices have become too close to the competition. They used to be cheaper.

I would recommend Kokam's 30C packs but it appears they are discontinued, which is weird.

[lutach]

For a Muggy, I would go with a 1521/1Y. It will be very happy on 6S or 5S lipos. I'm running 5S 9200mAh now and I can also run 10S 4600mAh when I feel the need for breaking parts, bending shaft and ballistic speeds. If and when Castle decides to make a Monster Max that can handle 12S lipos, you can easily run 12S 3700mAh 20-25C packs with the appropriate Kv motor for over 30 minutes.

[lincpimp]

Originally Posted by glassdoctor

I usually consider Maxamps prices at 10% off their listed price, since you can get that if you sign up for their "discount membeship" and spend $100. It does make a difference when it's a $284 pack that's now $255.60... or $241.40 if you spend $500 with them.

But I agree their prices have become too close to the competition. They used to be cheaper.

I would recommend Kokam's 30C packs but it appears they are discontinued, which is weird.

This is a good point, I had figured that tower usually has some sort of discount that could be applied to the flightpower packs.

I do agree that they have raised their prices, and not their product performance. I bought all of my maxamps packs when they were cheaper, and did not lose much money thanks to their price increase when I sold them. Thanks maxamps!

[BL_RV0]

Originally Posted by mk351e

I want strong acceleration, but I don't need to do wheelies that flip the truck on a dime and throw it down the street because of all the power. A wheelie here and there is good enough.

Originally Posted by lutach

For a Muggy, I would go with a 1521/1Y.

My project that I'm building funds for right now is a Maxx with a FLM chassis, a center diff, hybrid bulks with 43/10 gears and a Neu 1521 2.5d if I can get it, or a 1y. Esc will be a MMM, and batts will be 6s Flightpower. As for maxamps packs, I am also consideered a "hater" because I once bought 6 maxamps packs, and within the year 5 of them puffed. one actually set my entire truck on fire! I have pics somewhere.....