CEN cvds, arms and hubs on a savage

[lincpimp]

Here it is, what you have all been waiting for!!!

And yes, I made it work.

But first we will have a little show and tell , featuring the CEN parts!!!

All of these parts are off the big boy Cen GST/Genesis/Nemesis. It is an 1/8 scale truck with a very similar look and construction to a savage. Just a bit bigger.

Here are the hubs, broken down into parts:



Note the giant inside bearings, the outside are 8x16, and are the ones shown next to the inners. Only downside is cen uses metal sheilded bearings instead of rubber sheilded.




The knuckle attaches to the c hub via 2 large screws, look like m5 thread to me. And they pivot on 2 metal inserts as shown. Very smooth setup, and these are beefy parts, I doubt they will break easy.



Cen lower arms, next to a savvy arm. Suprisingly the cen arm is shorter than the savage arm, and it uses much smaller hingepins to attach to the hub.




Cen upper arms, much stronger than the savage parts, and come stock with a turnbuckle with what looks like a m7 thread!!!



And the mother of all cvds. Look at this beast!!! The center cvd is the lst2 part, and the top dogbone is a stock X part (wimpy looking, ain't it!!). The cen cvd is just massive. I just cannot see it breaking, or wearing out quickly. Keep in mind the cen has 23mm hexes and 7.5" tires on it stock, they weigh alot.

[lincpimp]

And here are the parts mocked up on a savvy bulkhead :




The lower arms are a direct fit, no nothing needed to get them in. And you can use the stock lower inner cen hingepins too, they are captured via a nylock nut. Very nice indeed. You do have to flip the arm over to install it (compared to how it is mounted in the gst), but the arms are not handed like the savage so it does not matter.

The cen uper arms cannot be used, IMO. They are too big and the mount spacing is too wide to attach to the savvy bulk without extreme mods. So that leaves us with the adjustable savvy upper arms. You cannot used the fixed length arms as they are a bit too long and will produce positive camber when the truck is at ride height. I am also thinking the adjustable arms will need to be trimmed slightly to allow the turnbuckle to thread in a bit more to both pieces. Some washers/shims will have to be used to space the smaller savvy ball end in the cen hub. I tried to fit the cen ball end in the savvy arm but it is too big. The cen hub upper arm holes will have to be slightly enlarged to take the correct sized bolt, nothing major there.



Here is the fun part...

The cen cvds do not work with the savvy output cups. I am referrring to the X cups, not the shd cups. The shd cups would be way too big for the ball end of the cen cvd, and would bind.

The X cups are also slightly too big too, the ball of the cen cvd is slack in the X cup.

So I took a look at the lst diff output cups, as I will have to use those with the lst cvd/hub mod (see other thread in this section).

The cen cvd fits perfectly in the lst cup. I then tried to fit the lst cup in the X diff. It fits, but is a bit tight. Some measuring showed that the pin hole in the lst cup is about .5mm closer to the flat area of the cup compared to the X cup. The fit in the diff is tight. I would say that a small amount of filing on the ring gear where the output cup touches and on the same area on the diff cup wll cure this. The inner pin size is the same, and the spider gears fit fine too.

Another requirement to use the lst cup is that it allows the cen cvd to get closer to the diff. The lst cup is shorter and the slots are cut deeper. This is mandatory as the cen cvd will bottom out in the X cup as the arms is raised to level.

[lincpimp]

Also the crosspins on the cen cvds will need to be cut down, the bin on the inside of the savvy bulk. Check out this pic and you can see the difference between the lst cvd and the cen. A few seconds of grinding will take care of this issue.

Look at the far left side of this pic, I will get a closeup later.

[josh9mille]

wow those CEN CVDs are fuggin huge! So are you gonna mate the LST stuff as well as the CEN stuff to the savage? or just one or the other?

[Semi Pro]

how hard would it be to put these on an lst2?

can you look and see or post me some compairson pics?

i need something so we can stop breaking nuckles on our 12cell lst xxl

[lincpimp]

Originally Posted by josh9mille

wow those CEN CVDs are fuggin huge! So are you gonna mate the LST stuff as well as the CEN stuff to the savage? or just one or the other?

I plan to run one savvy with the lst2 mod and one with the cen stuff. The 5th scale will get the cen stuff, and the 15" wb truck will get the lst2 mods.

Originally Posted by Semi Pro

how hard would it be to put these on an lst2?

can you look and see or post me some compairson pics?

i need something so we can stop breaking nuckles on our 12cell lst xxl

I will take a look. I think it is very doable on the lst, using the stock lower lst2 arm.

[Jahay]

Firstly Linc! Thanks for being the guinea pig!
Secondly! thanks for getting on this asap!

Now it is question time...

1. Width.
Obviosuly the LST will offer a wider stance, due to the longer arms and wider protruding hub. But is the CEN Kit overall wider than the savage arms and hub or a tiny bit narrower?

2. Bearings.
Wouldnt it just be possible to get rubber sheilded bearings instead of the metal face ones or would there be a fitment problem? And do you think the LST 3 bearing mod would be better than the CEN 2 bearings?

3. Do you think the lower arm of the CEN is weaker than the savage arm? and does it accept the stock savage hinge pin that fits through the bulk?

4.Would there be any problems mounting the stock shocks or would mods have to be made?

5. Do you think the Hubs on the LST2 are thicker and tougher (considering you can get alloy ones) than the CEN ones? and which one do you believe offers more steering throw?

6. The CEN doesnt have the style or rear hub like the LST or the possible use of the savage tie rod delete. Does this mean the CEn would neeed a rear turnbuckle supported of the bulkhead?

7. Diff Axles and CVDs.
Obviously the CVDs are going to be the strongest... but are they hollow? the look hollow to me for some reason, otherwise they must be very heavy?
Does a CEN Axle really need to be used? Why couldnt the SHD axle be used... there maybe a little movement but the large pins should keep it in place right? But in your opinion do you think the vorza axle could work... here are a couple of pics compared to an SHD axle... it seems almost exactly the same?






In your honest opinion... what do you think would be tougher... (not easier to install) yes the lst2 hubs require moving the savage arm furthur out, but do you think the custom hinge pin braces are just as strong as utilising the stock bulk and crappy stock bulk braces?

Thanks linc

[lincpimp]

Originally Posted by Jahay

Firstly Linc! Thanks for being the guinea pig!
Secondly! thanks for getting on this asap!

Now it is question time...

Just the man I have been waiting on!!!

I will answer your questions in numerical order, in another color.

1. Width.
Obviosuly the LST will offer a wider stance, due to the longer arms and wider protruding hub. But is the CEN Kit overall wider than the savage arms and hub or a tiny bit narrower?

Was not really looking at this, but since you ask. I have a feeling once you get the hex adapters on the cen axles it will turn out wider than the savage stuff. Not a bunch, and most likely not as wide as the lst2 stuff.

2. Bearings.
Wouldnt it just be possible to get rubber sheilded bearings instead of the metal face ones or would there be a fitment problem? And do you think the LST 3 bearing mod would be better than the CEN 2 bearings?

Given the axle size and the large bearing spacing I think the cen bearing setup is stronger than the stock lst bearing setup. I think the 3 bearing mod for the lst helps spread the load compared to stock lst stuff. Ultimately I think the cen hub is stronger than the lst, so I think the whole cen assembly can handle more than even the lst 3 bearing setup. And yes, you can get rubber sheilded bearings. the outers are common 8x16x4, and the inners are 10x19x7. VXB list rubber sealed ones for 4.50. I am sure they can be had in multiples cheaper.

3. Do you think the lower arm of the CEN is weaker than the savage arm? and does it accept the stock savage hinge pin that fits through the bulk?

Nope, I think it is about as strong. Only thing I question is how the hub is attached to the lower arm. Pin size seems a bit small, must be around 3mm or so. P/n is gs027, 3x44 threaded. The arm attaches exactly the same way the savage does, save for not having the little piece that laps over the hingepin brace on the bumper end of the bulk. Stock pins fit, and there is no slack at all.

4.Would there be any problems mounting the stock shocks or would mods have to be made?

No idea, have not got that far. The cen uses 2 shocks per arm, like the X. I am sure they can just be bolted back on with the appropriate type of fastener. As for a single shock, should work like the flux does. I will mock shocks up when I get a chance.

5. Do you think the Hubs on the LST2 are thicker and tougher (considering you can get alloy ones) than the CEN ones? and which one do you believe offers more steering throw?

Will check on steering throw. I think the stock hubs are stronger then the stock lst2, but I am sure the new era lst2 hubs are stronger. But these will likely be stronger still: http://cgi.ebay.com/ALUMINUM-F-R-KNU...item19b7c3c946

6. The CEN doesnt have the style or rear hub like the LST or the possible use of the savage tie rod delete. Does this mean the CEn would neeed a rear turnbuckle supported of the bulkhead?

So far yes it will require a turnbuckle. I am looking into other options.

7. Diff Axles and CVDs.
Obviously the CVDs are going to be the strongest... but are they hollow? the look hollow to me for some reason, otherwise they must be very heavy?
Does a CEN Axle really need to be used? Why couldnt the SHD axle be used... there maybe a little movement but the large pins should keep it in place right? But in your opinion do you think the vorza axle could work... here are a couple of pics compared to an SHD axle... it seems almost exactly the same?

Ok, I think you are confusing what I mean by axles. Axles are the part that the wheel hex mounts to. With the lst2 and the cen they are part of the cvd assembly, with the savage they are spereate and have a dogbone cup for the dogbone to interface with.

I do not think the cen cvds are hollow. They are not as light as the lst2 and are very well built.

Now the pics you reference are what I call diff outputs, or diff output cups. The pin does not locate any cvd or dogbone in the diff output, it only provides a method to transfer the rotational force. The ball part of the driveshaft (cvd or bone) locates the shaft in the diff output in all directions as the output turns. So it is very important that the ball matches the inside of the output as closely as possible to avoid alot of wobbling as the shaft turns. Hope that makes sense. Only way to know if your vorza part will wotk would be to stick a cen cvd in there.

In your honest opinion... what do you think would be tougher... (not easier to install) yes the lst2 hubs require moving the savage arm furthur out, but do you think the custom hinge pin braces are just as strong as utilising the stock bulk and crappy stock bulk braces?

Unless you have titanium arms, or mange to pull directly on the pin I really do not see how any impact could damage either setup before the arm tore off the hingepin. That being said I have seen stock plastic X bulks torn in the area where the hingepin goes thru. I can only imagine that al arms were on this, as the plastic arms are just not strong enough to resist tearing thru the hingepin holes.

The strongest setup would be a set of al bulks, with either the stock savvy arm or these cen arms, as the pin travel thru the bulk in the middle. I doubt you would be able to dmamge that.

I am confident my lst setup will resist breakage, and always run plastic arms as I would rather tear an arm off than damage a bulk. However I plan to run the cen setup with my set of GH bulks, so I may have to stock up on cen arms!!!

Thanks linc

you are very welcome, I cannot remember anyone being so interested in my projects before, nice to have you here!

[lincpimp]

Just to qualify.

I plan to run the cen parts on my 21.5" wb proline desert rat 5t conversion body build. This truck will likely run a 1717 on 6s, and end up rather heavy.

I am trying to keep it light but we all know how that goes.

The lst2 parts will go on my 15" wb build, powered by a 1521 1y neu on 6s. I will run something like the stock lst2 wheels on it, and bash it heavily.

Neither truck will have it easy, but the lst2 stuff will stay on an 1/8 size truck as I do not think it will hold up as well as the cen stuff. Just my opinion, but I think it is well founded.

[lincpimp]

Ok, looking at these pics. The vorza output looks to be very similar to the lst output. We need it to allow the cvd to come closer to the center of the diff, compared to the X cup. Looks like it can do that.

Can you take a SHD dogbone and see if it will fit the vorza output? Also, if you have a X dogbone try it too.

If the SHD dogbone fits the vorza output is a no go. If the X dogbone fits the cen cvd wiill wobble, as will the lst2 cvd. We do not want any wobble as stuff will wear out in no time flat.

If the X dogbone is a close fit but will not go we may have a winner. Let me know, and I will purchase some vorza outputs if it seems like they will work. The .5mm difference between the X and the lst does not really worrk me, as I can mod it to fit. But it would be nice to have a drop in solution.

[mothman]

Linc, do you think the cen hubs can fit the savage arm? I would really like to try this cen arm mod but then I have flextec arm that i really dont want to get rid of.

The LST2 mod doesnt look that strong to me though.

[Jahay]

Woah... thanks for the informative reply!!! Really helped make my decision as to which direction i am going to go with... it also helped me realise a few other things...
Linc i am quite thankful you are doing the testing, as i have been looking for a way of incorporating new hubs onto the savage. I could have done this myself... but the time waiting for parts to arrive from the states, and the prices are extremely expensive once it gets to the UK!

Firstly i will say... as tempting as the CEN Conversion is, and how it is obviously that bit easier to install (no custom braces), most likely stronger at the hub (larger bearings) and from what i have seen on ebay, cheaper parts! and the CEN Shafts are obviously stronger! i am most likely going to go with the LST2 conversion for my project.

I am primarily looking for the following
-a wider stance

-strong hub to handle heavier wheels (both cen and lst are golden here)

-the ability to utilise my stock HPI savage sway bars (most prob with a few modifications this would be possible with the CEN arms, but should be much easier with the savage arms and LST Hubs.

-I like the idea that if i brake an arm, i can remove the pin without removing any plastic bumpers. (yes i am still a little skeptical as to whether how strong the hinge pin would be only being braced by the thicker custom braces without the bulk but i am not going to be doing any crazy jumps with this truck as i will have another basher for that.

- No need for a rear turnbuckle

- Just as important as everything else is a little bling... sad... i know... but i can use the new era goodies to add a little shine.. plus all my alloy is being anodised in the coming weeks... (CEN doesnt have enough bling for me haha...im prob going to do cen mods on my basher savage)

- ease of replacing parts (a mate of mine has an lst2 with plenty of spares like i do for the savage. So i can get them off him any time. (no cen suppliers in the UK but there are a few lst2)

- looks like the LST2 CVD will work with the vorza cup... but only time will tell.

- also .... i was considering trying some flm arms... i was hoping the stiff alloy arms would give the savage more of a predictable controllability... this also means, in big tumbles and in the event that the arm ripped off... The bulk would not be damaged, and i doubt the thick alloy braces would be, but only the hinge pin would bend and possibly pull out? This means it would be a cheaper fix than replacing a whole bulk head.

Also many who have done extended muggy conversions using the lst2 as a platform, have proven that the LST2 axles/hubs/shafts can handle the 8-12s power they pump through the parts so that gives me confidence... And if a savage arm breaks here and there, it really is a small price to pay and is an extremely quick fix!

I JUST HOPE THE LST2 HAS BETTER STEERING THROW... By the looks of it, both cen and lst have similar design (one just more robust than the other) so steering throw should be great on both hopefully, or even increasable as long as the shaft doesnt pop out of the diff output.


I think it is now time i start ordering my LST2 parts... Linc Thanks a lot for doing the hard work and working this out. very much appreciated and i know how to tackle this without having to ummmm and arrrrrrrr now.

Thanks again buddy...

I am still following both lst and cen threads as i want to see how good the steering throw will be etc... but it is time to stop faffing around and order some parts so i can start making my own braces... I will try using 4mm alloy only as i have it available.

[lincpimp]

Originally Posted by mothman

Linc, do you think the cen hubs can fit the savage arm? I would really like to try this cen arm mod but then I have flextec arm that i really dont want to get rid of.

The LST2 mod doesnt look that strong to me though.

If you trim the cen hub enough to get it inside the savvy arm I do not think you will have enough material left for it to be strong...

What part of the lst mod does not look strong to you? The pin brace idea I came up with? Or the attachment of the lst hub to the savvy arm?

I will take some pics of the cen hub next to the savvy arm for clarification.

[lincpimp]

Make sure you post up pics and thoughts Jahay. I will have a truck with each of the setups on it, eventually.

[Jahay]

before i spend some money just yet, as i would like to order everything at once... i have my mate posting me one LST2 cvd and a diff output axle... Just to compare with the vorza.. .i think they are exactly the same...
He has a spare pair of New Era C Hubs too, and i found a supplier fo the rear alloy hubs here in the UK.. i only need the front spindles as well...

Have you received the LST2 upper arm turnbuckles yet? im intersted to know what length you end up using... and how you attempt to increase steering throw as much as possible