Electric Cars: The reality

[TexasSP]

I am all for the idea of electric cars. Obviously I understand the many benefits. So I see Chevy is pursuing the volt on schedule according to them and claiming MPG at 230. That I don't get from a pure electric car.

So what I really want to know is what is the actual cost of ownership going to be?

What will be it's distance at X average speed you will get per charge?

What will be the size of the batteries which will answer the question of how many watts to fill up the batteries?

What is the fuel burn on oil and/or coal burning plants to achieve the required wattage to recharge the batteries?

What will be the battery cycle life?

How much are new batteries going to cost?

Etcetera etcetera....

I really think this needs to be looked at deeply across the whole to determine if it really us a better alternative. Right now as great as hybrid technology is, the real cost of ownership appears to be as much and in some cases much higher than their pure gas counterparts.

Anyway just some ideas to think about.

[MTBikerTim]

The other factor is cost to the environment of the cars production. I had a teacher once who said he would never buy a new car no matter how efficient it was as the cost (environmentally) to produce would always out way the benefits of any efficiency gains to the environment.

I thought this was a very good point. I always wonder about those energy saver light bulbs, sure they save energy but how much more energy do they take to produce being so much more complex.

[Finnster]

Originally Posted by MTBikerTim

The other factor is cost to the environment of the cars production. I had a teacher once who said he would never buy a new car no matter how efficient it was as the cost (environmentally) to produce would always out way the benefits of any efficiency gains to the environment.

I thought this was a very good point. I always wonder about those energy saver light bulbs, sure they save energy but how much more energy do they take to produce being so much more complex.

Some of the #'s I've seen (in relation to our big cash for clunkers gov't stimulus subsidies program) is that the "carbon" cost of production results in about 10% of the total carbon output of the cars life (however that is defined.)

It can be worth it, but you have to get a reasonably more efficient more car, and depends also on how "used up" the car you are junking is. Someone else can figure out that inflection point....

[Finnster]

The EPA is yet to confirm the mileage, as it sound the testing stds need to be worked out.
You would think cost of ownership (minus batts) would be less as there are so many fewer parts to wear out, but time will tell. Batts are going to be the big hurdle for a while.

You would expect costs to be high initially, but come down over time as market and tech matures (true w/ any other tech.) Gas engines have been used for 100yrs, so they have a pretty good headstart.

It would be cool to go to work and back w/ never having to go to gas station. Soon enough.


Lastly, the thing about using FF in powerplants vs burning them in cars is that you can design and maintain a power plant to a high state of efficiency as the power plant is a static environment, and generators do not have to deal w/ wide ranges of operation like a gas engine does (variable rpms, weather, wear, etc etc) as well as have a better point of control for pollution equipment. Huge gains in eff just from that. The downside is loss of power over transmission lines, but that should be more than made up by the former.

[Snipin_Willy]

From cradle to grave a Toyota Prius is harder on the environment than Hummer H1. I have no idea if that true or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.

[zeropointbug]

Yes, cost of production (to environment) is the issue. No one seems to think about this aspect of of buying a new car, majority of people think they are doing the world a favor when buying a new car with 10% better mpg and selling their 5 year old car!

IIRC, it takes 80 barrels of oil to make the average vehicle? Now I don't know what the range is for 'average' (is it compacts to semi-tractors?), but I am not sure about that number, seems too high in my honest educated opinion.

To get to the electric car dilemma, the batteries are the number one energy sucker for production, it's basically the cheaper it is for the manufacturer to produce, the 'cleaner' it is to produce; most of the time, but not always. Like I said a few weeks ago in someones post, Europositron of Finland 'supposedly has a battery chemistry that can achieve 1300+Wh/kg of energy density... if any of you don't know what that means, an R/C lipo pack has a density of at most 150Wh/kg, that's 9 times most energy stored per kg of pack, that's unbelievable at this day in age. But the most important aspect of these batteries is that they are able to be made VERY cheap, and VERY clean. A few thousand dollars will get you 1000 miles of range in a average sized car.

As for efficiencies, for a given vehicle, an ICE (internal combustion engine) has a "well to wheels" efficiency of about 10 - 12% IIRC.

An electric car for the same X vehicle will have an efficiency of 55%.


But in the end, this is not an issue of batteries, there is an underlying issue of energy source. We NEED a different energy source than oil. Zeropoint energy baby.

[Metallover]

Check out DIY electric car .com and forum. They have TONS of info and a garage where you can look at other peoples rides.

Here's a specific article of the cost of electricity - http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums...ead.php?t=8293

As for mpg from an electric car, a guy who has a couple metros has the answer. Metrompg.com or ecomodder.com. His metro is supposed to get 128.8mpg. Other ev's get 115s and it probably goes down lower from there. Over 100 are the little metros and a fiero. Those a lightweight cars, but that's what you would want to convert, so I guess it works out.

With modded diesel cars you can get 65+ and apparently people are pushing 80 from little tdi's. Diesel is a great fuel; gets 30% better economy then gasoline. 50% of European cars are diesel. You can't buy a single fuel efficient car in america compared to those europeans...

ahh, here's how to convert Wh/mi to mpg - http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums...ad.php?t=14465

[redshift]

Originally Posted by Metallover

With modded diesel cars you can get 65+ and apparently people are pushing 80 from little tdi's. Diesel is a great fuel; gets 30% better economy then gasoline. 50% of European cars are diesel. You can't buy a single fuel efficient car in america compared to those europeans...

RIGHT. And that should be proof enough for most people that, at least in the West, there is a stranglehold on new technologies.

Yes Virginia there really is a conspiracy.

Another good example of that would be the Tucker, you get squashed if you are not a "frat boy".

I'm starting to really think we need a third option, if there is one. I have no real opinion on the nuclear alternative, if it can truly be done safely and cleanly......

And I echo what ZP said about the mfr's going FAR out of their way to make the electrics as unappealing as possible. I remember seeing an electrified VW Rabbit at the Ontario Science Centre (was about 1977) and the poor thing was loaded with lead-acid batteries to the point that they encroached significantly into the passenger area, and the performance must have been absolutely pathetic. that was 30+ years ago, and I can't really say much has improved in that time. And I believe that is because of constant hindrance by third parties, to say the least.

And look at the average vehicle mileage since the 70's, we are talking about miniscule improvements in the numbers.

We need other options, and no, I'm not talking about a commercially produced Flintstone-mobile either, but yes electrics are the best stop-gap alternative at the moment IMO.

[Metallover]

everyone can buy wind generators or solar panels and we'll all be alright...

Just figured your average ebike gets about 36wh/mi. That's about 1000mpg. Now that's clean transportation, I don't care who you are.

[lutach]

All of the automotive companies can do much more then what they are offering if they tried a bit harder. All of the money they have and only claims to back it up. It's just sad.

[zeropointbug]

It is sad, but they have never been there to make a GOOD electric car, or a hybrid car for that matter... they had divisions make their electric cars, and make them poorly, or ugly, or just plain unappealing to the consumer in every way, then afterwards come out with a report saying that electric cars make no sense.

The number one problem for battery powered electric cars is that the battery companies, and start-up companies that have something SUREFIRE, get no funding, or at the best pennies to do a little research, then the investors (powerful companies) pull the plug on the whole thing and shelf the patents for the technologies.

I know of many technologies that IF funded, would change the way we live, for the better, and the for the better of our earth.

EEStor also has a 'uber-capacitor' storage battery that is VERY promising to electric cars advancement. 350Wh/kg IIRC, and would be MUCH cheaper than lipo/lion/life batteries. They use some sort of technique that is simple allows them to charge a ultra-capacitor to several thousands of volts, rather than the 2.5 - 2.7v for typical ultra-caps... and if anyone how caps store energy, energy is an exponential equation of voltage. Plus these things would last, and last...... and last.

Seriously, if me an Luc. (Lutach) had a few million dollars, we could develop the fastest, most convenient, most efficient electric car you could ever imagine. 0-60 times of 2.5 seconds or less, 250+mpg equivalent, quality like no other, with batteries that would last the life of the vehicle with no maintenance, except for tires. These is just NOTHING on an electric car to wear out, if built right, except for bearings, in the motor, and various locations on the car.

You think you can't have the same power/weight as your Bl Revo, or Bl truggy? Think again.

[OZ-RUSTLER]

Originally Posted by zeropointbug

You think you can't have the same power/weight as your Bl Revo, or Bl truggy? Think again.

That scares me and excites me at the same time

Standing backflips anyone?

[pasan]

I agree. A perfect example is the GM EV-1/CARB fiasco. The west gets attacked for being capitalist and greedy, but what they don't realize is that it's a handful of people who are controlling things, the majority are at a loss (and often unaware) to do anything about it, yet they're the ones punished.

[shaunjohnson]

when i get enough money i am GOING to make my nissan vanette (the manette) electric.
but do it my own special way, call castle and ask them to build me a mega mamba max monster for 1000A+ @200v and order a metric F*** ton of lipo's or A123's. then an industrial sized 3 phase motor and away i go...no tranny, just straight to the tailshaft.
500hp on tap...here i come >:)
shaun

[pasan]

Sweet, you have a Vanette? Which year? My family's urban runabout is a 1994 Townace Super Extra, which gets about 10km/l, but that's because it's a manual and we don't thrash it. It was used by my family of 4 for our daily commute to work, school, and pretty much everything else. I've persuaded my dad to hang on to it, because in this day and age when your car squirts an extra bit of air freshener because it just detected that you let loose a strong silent one, it's nice to have something primitive to fall back to when the machines take over. The only electronic device in the van is the radio.