ROAR approval of non novak ESC's and Motors

Bob, when are you going to do the right thing for the sport and allow competitive designs or step down from being the ROAR approval committee.
This is bad for the sport and frankly makes ROAR look bad which explains the decline of ROAR and of on-road racing. the current spec is dated and smacks totally of protecting Novak - not the sport.

Andy

Originally Posted by alangsam

Bob, when are you going to do the right thing for the sport and allow competitive designs or step down from being the ROAR approval committee.
This is bad for the sport and frankly makes ROAR look bad which explains the decline of ROAR and of on-road racing. the current spec is dated and smacks totally of protecting Novak - not the sport.

Andy

If the current spec is there to protect Novak it is sure doing a bad job....
All of the "usual suspect" ROAR manufacturers have a ROAR legal motor.
Associated, Losi, Novak, Trinity, Tekin, Hacker and Schumacher all have stock motors, for modifieds you can throw in Orion and Hobbico as well.

I don't understand why certain manufacturers (perhaps based in the heartlands) think it is fair that ROAR changes to meet their needs. If they truly want to be involved in ROAR racing they could have come up with something that was ROAR approved by now.
I am sure at some point the rules will change, but then everyone will have to come up with something new. You cannot run a racing organization without rules so that cars can be quickly inspected, so there will always been rules.
Additionally with any bureaucracy change is slow. You cannot expect ROAR to have gone from brushed (turn based) motors straight to rpm/kv motors.

[NovakTwo]

Hi Andy,

I'm not Bob, but I'll take a stab at answering your question. ROAR established a BL Motor Manufacturers' Committee before the deliberation over the BL Spec rules that were established earlier this year. All manufacturers and resellers of brushless motors, who were interested in offering motors for ROAR-style racing, were invited to join.

This committee consisted of reps from most of the major companies (including CC and Tekin), whether or not they were currently offering BL motors for sale. It was this group of companies, not Bob alone, who voted on the decision about the specifications for the stock/spec BL motor that were later accepted by ROAR.

Once the spec rules were finalized, the companies were more comfortable in committing resources to tooling up their own BL motors that conformed to the criteria established for stock brushless motors. Here is the list of motors (companies) submitted to ROAR for approval:

ROAR Brushless Motor Approvals

Any motor company, that wishes to have the BL committee consider a change to the existing rules, must submit a formal proposal to ROAR to be debated by this standing group of manufacturers.

Originally Posted by alangsam

Bob, when are you going to do the right thing for the sport and allow competitive designs or step down from being the ROAR approval committee.
This is bad for the sport and frankly makes ROAR look bad which explains the decline of ROAR and of on-road racing. the current spec is dated and smacks totally of protecting Novak - not the sport.

Andy

Originally Posted by cmcclive

If the current spec is there to protect Novak it is sure doing a bad job....
All of the "usual suspect" ROAR manufacturers have a ROAR legal motor.
Associated, Losi, Novak, Trinity, Tekin, Hacker and Schumacher all have stock motors, for modifieds you can throw in Orion and Hobbico as well.

I don't understand why certain manufacturers (perhaps based in the heartlands) think it is fair that ROAR changes to meet their needs. If they truly want to be involved in ROAR racing they could have come up with something that was ROAR approved by now.
I am sure at some point the rules will change, but then everyone will have to come up with something new. You cannot run a racing organization without rules so that cars can be quickly inspected, so there will always been rules.
Additionally with any bureaucracy change is slow. You cannot expect ROAR to have gone from brushed (turn based) motors straight to rpm/kv motors.

i appreciate your response. Isnt Bob head of the committee?
as an active on-road racer i am interested in the advancement of the technology. the current spec requires everyone to exactly replicate/copy the novak motor design down to the colors of the wires. this is not required to keep the integrity of the inspection process. this is an older design and frankly when you look at the motors you have listed they are basically identical. yes some of the OEM's have indeed done this but it isnt moving the sport forward and creating the environment to push the envelope. Why would they want to spend R&D to produce something with no differentiation other than the amount the brand can carry? We should expect ROAR to go from one to the other. They desperately need to move to avoid becoming irrelevant. It hasnt happend because Novak chose to promote the older design which is all they have vs change to rpm/kv.
I suspect as soon as novak decides to produce such a design ROAR specs will change, not before then. This is very obvious to the racing community.

[wade7575]

NovakTwo I'm not saying Bob or Novak is olny concerned with Novak be the olny ROAR approved motor's you can run in ROAR racing.But can you tell me this I have seen post's in other threads where you have implied Novak would welcome other Motor's to be approved for ROAR and racing,and if Bob does truly feel this way and feel'sthat this is hurting the Hobby by ROAR dictating to Joe racer he must use a Novak system if he want's to run in a Brushless class why does Bob not tell ROAR to get bent and either approve more motor's and ESC system's that comply with the rule's or we meaning Novak will stop making are motor ROAR compliant or just plain and simply just focus on the backyard basher setup`s.If you can not answer for Bob why Novak won`t just stop making ROAR compliant motors and focus on other thing`s please don`t cop out and just say something like I can not answer for Bob then please ask him and pass it along or if Bob won`t saying anything on this matter then that will give me all the info I need.

[NovakTwo]

Originally Posted by wade7575

NovakTwo I'm not saying Bob or Novak is olny concerned with Novak be the olny ROAR approved motor's you can run in ROAR racing.

But can you tell me this I have seen post's in other threads where you have implied Novak would welcome other Motor's to be approved for ROAR and racing,and if Bob does truly feel this way and feel'sthat this is hurting the Hobby by ROAR dictating to Joe racer he must use a Novak system if he want's to run in a Brushless class

why does Bob not tell ROAR to get bent and either approve more motor's and ESC system's that comply with the rule's or we meaning Novak will stop making are motor ROAR compliant or just plain and simply just focus on the backyard basher setup`s.

If you can not answer for Bob why Novak won`t just stop making ROAR compliant motors and focus on other thing`s please don`t cop out and just say something like I can not answer for Bob then please ask him and pass it along or if Bob won`t saying anything on this matter then that will give me all the info I need.

One of your suggestions here seems to be that if Novak is not completely happy with the existing ROAR motor rules, we should just pick up our marbles and go home. Or, hold our breath until we turn blue?

Maybe you could explain just why we would stop making motors that conform to the rules----I'm not getting your point. Novak sensored motors were specifically designed (by Novak, from the ground up) to be acceptable to racers competing in ROAR-type, 6-cell events.

You seem to believe that Bob has waay more authority over ROAR than he does or, even, wants. Also, Bob does not feel that the existing rules are hurting the hobby or racers. These rules actually seem to be working quite well. ROAR has published rules for both BL Modified racing and BL Stock racing. I do not see the Stock BL rules changing anytime soon.

The entire goal of the restrictive BL stock rules is limiting the variation in all motors sold to stock racers (for ROAR sanctioned events). Therefore, a specific wind motor (17.5) from one company should have virtually the same performance as the same wind motor sold by a competitor. This is designed to "level the playing field", take stock motor variation out of the racing equation and limit the "motor of the month" mentality.

Where motor rules may be expanded is in the Modified BL motor category. If you check any of my previous statements, you will probably notice the word "modified" is used. Companies interested in an expansion of the rules to include other designs know what the ROAR procedure is.

It is the responsibility of the company (ies) desiring the change to submit a formal proposal to ROAR (and the standing BL motor committee) detailing their proposed changes. It is not Novak's responsibility to undertake the project to convince the BL motor group to alter the existing mod rules.

[wade7575]

I'm not saying that Bob has super specail power and just cast's his spell on ROAR and he get's whatever he want's from them,I understand ROAR is slow to change but what I don't understand is why one company should have a monopoly.What I'm saying is this Novak has said in the past they would welcome other motor's in ROAR racing but seeing as that ROAR is slow to change and if Novak would welcome the change.

Tell me this if Tekin or some other ESC Motor Manufactor was told by ROAR go design and build it and we'll approve it,can you honestly say that Novak would'nt be complaining and asking why there being shut out.

All I'm trying to say is choice is nice,and as far as Novak picking up all there Marble's and going Home,I'm not trying to say that,all I'm trying to say is Novak should do the right thing and tell ROAR that they want to share there Marble's or ROAR may find themselves with no Marble's.

Why could other Company's that make motor's not make motor'sthat would have the same Torqueand RPM as a Novak motor,I know they may never be perfectly equal but there could be a Max RPM and Max Torque rule that any approved 17.5 can go over.

[NovakTwo]

Bob has no standing to tell ROAR what to do. He is just one member of the BL motor committee. There is no "Novak monopoly" in ROAR approved motors. There are 7-8 companies offering motors that have already been approved (including Tekin).

ROAR will not act further on amending the existing rules until some company---Castle, Tekin, Neu, Medusa, etc----submits a formal proposal (see above) for consideration.

Could you tell me why you continue to believe this is Bob's responsibility?

[wade7575]

I'm not saying it's Bob's responsibility to change the rule's but you can not tell me there is no monopoly,I'm not saying that Bob came up with a Master plan to control the whole ESC and Motor market and wether you want to admit it or not there is a monopoly there wether Bob came up wth a master plan or it just worked out that because ROAR won't approve anyone else.But Bob could tell ROAR to smarten up or we will pull are support from ROAR.

[NovakTwo]

Maybe, you need to define "monopoly" for me. When we have 6-7 competitors for every motor we want to sell, I don't see it as a Novak monopoly.

ROAR really doesn't care what Bob thinks. Bob is not good at "Master Plans", either. If you are a ROAR member, try contacting them and offering them your suggestions.

Originally Posted by wade7575

I'm not saying it's Bob's responsibility to change the rule's but you can not tell me there is no monopoly,I'm not saying that Bob came up with a Master plan to control the whole ESC and Motor market and wether you want to admit it or not there is a monopoly there wether Bob came up wth a master plan or it just worked out that because ROAR won't approve anyone else.But Bob could tell ROAR to smarten up or we will pull are support from ROAR.

[Happywing]

I have a query. Why is there a ROAR approved list for modified? To me, modified means run whatever you have. Any and every BL motor should qualify and therefor there should be no modified approved list. This gives credence to the conspiracy theories.

[NovakTwo]

Hi Happywing,

Good question. ROAR has been in the business of approving motors from its inception 30+ years ago, before Novak even started in business. It was then approving brush motors. It could be that many companies supporting ROAR were motor sellers, and needed to assure each other, and the membership. that all motors were built to certain specifications.

There had also always been a price cap on the approved brush motors, which served to limit the use of more expensive materials---such as rare earth magnets. Here is a list of some of the old approved brush motors, but it only goes back to '93:

Approved Brush Motors

Novak never sold brush motors, so we were never involved with the earlier approval requirements. When the brushless motors became available for approval, ROAR insisted on similar, strict requirements for the new technology.

Originally Posted by Happywing

I have a query. Why is there a ROAR approved list for modified? To me, modified means run whatever you have. Any and every BL motor should qualify and therefor there should be no modified approved list. This gives credence to the conspiracy theories.

[George16]

Originally Posted by NovakTwo

When the brushless motors became available for approval, ROAR insisted on similar, strict requirements for the new technology.

But why? It does not make sense to me at all. Like you said, Novak do not sell brushed motors. So was it just a coincidence that the approved BL motors are pretty much Novak clones? Or was there a different reason why? If ROAR truly want to advanced the sport, it should get rid of the restrictions on the modified class. Let those competing companies duke it out and see who has the best product.

To me, having strict requirements for the new technology slows down the advance of the sport/hobby.

[NovakTwo]

Originally Posted by George16

But why? It does not make sense to me at all. Like you said, Novak do not sell brushed motors. So was it just a coincidence that the approved BL motors are pretty much Novak clones? Or was there a different reason why? If ROAR truly want to advanced the sport, it should get rid of the restrictions on the modified class. Let those competing companies duke it out and see who has the best product.

To me, having strict requirements for the new technology slows down the advance of the sport/hobby.

I think that your quarrel is with the organization, not Novak. They make and enforce the rules. ROAR makes rules about many, many products used for racing---they publish a very thick rule book every year.

The first BL motors submitted to ROAR for approval in '05 were offered by Novak and LRP(Associated). If you want to sell motors to be used in ROAR-sanctioned events, you follow their rules and work to get your motors approved.

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by alangsam

i appreciate your response. Isnt Bob head of the committee?
as an active on-road racer i am interested in the advancement of the technology. the current spec requires everyone to exactly replicate/copy the novak motor design down to the colors of the wires. this is not required to keep the integrity of the inspection process. this is an older design and frankly when you look at the motors you have listed they are basically identical. yes some of the OEM's have indeed done this but it isnt moving the sport forward and creating the environment to push the envelope. Why would they want to spend R&D to produce something with no differentiation other than the amount the brand can carry? We should expect ROAR to go from one to the other. They desperately need to move to avoid becoming irrelevant. It hasnt happend because Novak chose to promote the older design which is all they have vs change to rpm/kv.
I suspect as soon as novak decides to produce such a design ROAR specs will change, not before then. This is very obvious to the racing community.

I would like to see these questions answered as well.