Zeitgeist Addendum...

[zeropointbug]

Originally Posted by ClodMaxx

'you must be the change you wish to see in the world.'

I like that quote. That is pretty much my life motto.

Agreed though, this thread should never have been made, I should have known what these kinds of topics get to... and not REALLY the place for it I might add.

[zeropointbug]

Originally Posted by simplechamp

I've watched both the original and the addendum. I take it all with a grain of salt. There are some valid points, and also many bogus ones. I really don't care about the movie either way. It is what it is. That's fine. Believe what you want, I'll believe what I want.

What I dislike is when people criticize me for not thinking it's the most eye-opening, life-changing movie ever. It's a movie that asks you to question the entire fabric of society. Yet it's been my experience that when I even slightly question the validity of this movie supporters get very defensive and all of a sudden I'm a "sheep".

So questioning society as a whole = good but questioning a movie made by one guy with a biased viewpoint and questionable "facts" = bad. Makes perfect sense.

http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/

I have read most of that website already, I checked it out again for Addendum, a handful of good points he makes, but mostly regurgitates the same old propaganda the movie disproves (I would take that website with a grain of salt).

Another reason I wouldn't listen to a word he says, just look at all the advertisements on his website!!! lol I didn't even notice at first! Google ads, Scientology ads, diamond ads. That there is dangerous.

[lincpimp]

Originally Posted by ClodMaxx

oh boy. some of the threads that got ugliest in forum history have been about religion and politics....

i'll jump in (again) only to say that i consider myself somewhat religious, and even more spiritual. i consider myself to be a christian, but also appreciate islam, buddhism, hinduism, taoism, and others. why? because there is one common thread among all of them: better yourself, and love and respect one another. if more people did that, no matter what their religion, the world would be an infinitely better place than it is.

my favorite quote of all time is from gandhi: 'you must be the change you wish to see in the world.'

I am not religious at all (big shocker, huh!) but you have stated a very good solid basic truth that should not be ignored Clod! Good job, and I too wish that this basic understanding would be practiced by more people! The world would be a much better place.

And now back to your regular scheduled whining...

Oh, what neu motor should I use with my revo?

[TexasSP]

zeropoint, please know you haven't offended or angered me in anyway. Jesus teaches that these times in life come and I am to offer love. Please don't confuse me with "Christians" that talk a talk and play a game. I don't go to church to dress up, in fact I wear shorts, tshirt, and sandals to church. I go to church to worship with others and to find ways to minister to people. This means providing my time and services to others regardless of who are what they are. I give money to God as an act of faith and to support the work done all around the globe. Over 80% of the budget of the church I attend goes to missions such as building orphanages and supporting them, creating business opportunities for people with HIV/AIDS in Africa, feeding, clothing, and educating the homeless to get them back on their feet and find jobs, assisting felons in getting back into the free world after parole/release, assisting former addicts with job training and attaining employment, rebuilding houses for victims of Ike and other disasters, providing school supplies for over 10k under privileged children, and so on. If anyone is interested you can check out where I go at www.fotw.org and more on my pastor at www.kerryshook.com

The single most important part of being a Christian past a relationship with God is serving others. This does not mean preaching and evangelizing, but giving of yourself to others. This doesn not mean protesting abortion clinics, rock concerts, and so on, I have no use for those people. This means reaching out to all people, not just who we pick and choose.

In reality zeropoint I know that I have no power to change your heart or mind on any of this. I serve God and pray for you and wish you the best of life. I could pick out points and argue with you all day long, but really what good would it do either of us? Please understand I do not hold myself above anyone and do not have anything that makes me special. I know many "Christians" look down on others and "sinners" as a sub class and not worthy. That is not what Jesus taught and not how God directs my life. I have no great secrets or anything else that aids me through life. Everything I have is available to anyone. ie: this is not some exclusive club

[JThiessen]

Originally Posted by ClodMaxx

i'll jump in (again) only to say that i consider myself somewhat religious, and even more spiritual. i consider myself to be a christian, but also appreciate islam, buddhism, hinduism, taoism, and others. why? because there is one common thread among all of them: better yourself, and love and respect one another. if more people did that, no matter what their religion, the world would be an infinitely better place than it is.

my favorite quote of all time is from gandhi: 'you must be the change you wish to see in the world.'

Well stated Clod.

[PBO]

TeaxsSP, I respect your views & beliefs, please do not think otherwise

I'm an atheist, although I went to a Christian school. I don't go to Church although I was married in one & expect to spend my last moments in one also...I just have a hard time boarding the religious bus

I think I'm a good person, it would seem I do similar things to you. I have many religious friends who are good people also but I don't think they are any more Christian than I am. In fact the only difference is our behaviour is they attend Church once a week

I have other friends who have become (hope that's the right expression) religious after experiencing drug or alcohol problems. I have others who are using their new found religion as a means of securing positions in aspirational schools for their children

Regardless of the detail, it seems to me that religion can be a group that you join for your own reasons...& 'religion' is generally quite interested in giving people reasons to join. It appears that quantity versus quality is often front of mind for religion?

I guess the conundrum I get to is; if I live a good honest life, that is essentially Christian as I know it, why do I need to devote my life to a God?

Please remember I'm asking these things from a respectful intellectual view point

[redshift]

zeropointbug wrote: "Agreed though, this thread should never have been made, I should have known what these kinds of topics get to... and not REALLY the place for it I might add"

Hehe we kind of cross-posted, I assume this was your response to what I said in the Cash for Clunkers thread. And I sort of replied to this thread there. Didn't have time for both lol. I don't want you to feel bad, most of the people who are interested in this stuff, I am willing to bet, wouldn't want to make their position known. So we all get to throw out tidbits about our own 'beliefs' if ya will, which is cool. And I like to see so many independent thinkers on an RC forum. I try to listen to everyone's POV, but we all have our biases and it is all too easy for threads to turn ugly. And some of us at times probably forget this is an RC forum, myself included.

I guess one problem is, there isn't always RC stuff to talk about lol.

But I don't expect, or want RCM to be all RC.. it wouldn't be RCM then. Tough to decide for yourself where to draw the line sometimes though.

Tex, just wanted to let you know that the first half or so of ZA is about the monetary system, and I do think it's worth watching. If nothing else it points out some commonly held fallacies about how the system functions. As was mentioned, nothing is 100% one way or another and everything should be held to the light through one's own filter.

Truth by definition is absolute. But humans' truth will always be subjective.

[TexasSP]

PBO and this goes for others as well, I hold no anger or malice toward any of you. I respect people searching for answers much more than "Christians" who claim to have it all figured out. I sure as heck don't have it anywhere near all figured out and never will. I am not a religious person, in fact like zeropoint said I believe religion to be very dangerous. But Christianity as described by Jesus has nothing to do with religion ad in fact Jesus blasts religion time and time again. In reality Jesus was much more critical of the "religious" than of anyone else. Christianity is also not about going to church while in fact the church is not in reality a place or event. The church according to Jesus is us the people who follow him and have a relationship with him. By his own terms the church is the bride of Christ. Obviously this is a metaphoric description but it really describes what it is all about.

I will not take away from you that many people claiming the label of Christianity do very little to separate themselves from anything else but that is man's fallacy not God's. Man has done a very poor job of doing what Christ asked of him. Many treat church like some sort of exclusive country club and the whole way they present it is very wrong.

I want to take a minute to let you know that I completely respect how you (or anyone) feel as an atheist. I also completely respect anyone seeking answers and asking questions. I in fact respect it much more than people who claim the banner as "Christian" yet really don't live it.

I also would suggest for anyone wanting to understand some of my feelings toward religion to look up the lyrics to Brian Head Welch's song "die religion die". He is the former lead guitarist for Korn who has become a Christian. He also has an excellent biography about beating addiction.

I want to note that I am always very suspect of anyone who claims to have "found" God. I find this interesting because it really makes it seem like God is hiding somewhere waiting to be found when in fact he is everywhere. Yes former drug addicts can claim religious experiences and I have no doubt many do but this may or may not have anything to do with them actually talking with God.

One other thing I do not do is put God into a bottle of how things came to be and so on. He gives us a description in Genesis but does not rule out many of the scientific ideas that are out there including different types of evolution. Many people try to paint God and science as mutually exclusive but I do not see this. If in fact as a Christian I believe God created everything then in fact science is of God. Now that does not eliminate the fact that man can misinterpret science as we have many times in the past.

Many things I cannot articulate fully without directing you toward the Bible. While there are many theological discussions that can be had about the different translations and so on I believe that most of the answers can be had from any of the translations. I don't think the theological debates into differences in versions/translations are relevant to this discussion.

Also from the atheist standpoint I suggest the book "The Case For Christ" written by Lee Strobel. Lee Strobel is a journalist who was an atheist who originally set out to disprove the existence of God and who now has a relationship with God. His journey is very interesting and well chronicled.

I will leave you with one last verse in reference to "Christians" where Jesus is describing people who hold the banner up but don't really walk the path. Again another example of Christ coming down on the "religious". I think many people suspect of "Christians" would really appreciate this.

Revelation 3:14-16
¹⁴"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. ¹⁵I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! ¹⁶So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

I also suggest reading Matthew 23 as linked here. It's a whole chapter of Christ rebuking the "religious".

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...23&version=NIV

[TexasSP]

Redshift in response to you I am posting this. The monetary system is a fallacy. It's created by man and man is fallible. I do not argue the fact that most of what we as man have created is faulty, because we are faulty. Man in his/her entire history has not ever created anything permanent or lasting. The worst thing is our arrogance gets in the way so much. All the way from the government thinking it can solve everyone's problems and care for everyone better than they as individuals can all the way down to me as a singular man. I really do not believe it is any secret. God specifically tells us this many times throughout the Bible.

I also really like the last line about truth you put. Very True :)

In response to zeropoint I do not think this thread should be shut down. I believe everyone is being respectful and I personally like everyone who is posting on here.

[ClodMaxx]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

I want to note that I am always very suspect of anyone who claims to have "found" God. I find this interesting because it really makes it seem like God is hiding somewhere waiting to be found when in fact he is everywhere. Yes former drug addicts can claim religious experiences and I have no doubt many do but this may or may not have anything to do with them actually talking with God.

why?

what makes it ok for you to have found God at a young age (or whenever you did) and it be 'suspect' when someone hits rock bottom and finally accepts needing help much bigger than any person? or the average atheist/unbeliever who has some life-changing event and suddenly comes to terms with the fact that there must have been some kind of divine intervention? millions of situations like this happen daily! who are we to decide who really believes and who doesn't? doesn't the fact that them making the decision to end the destructive cycle they're in count for something?

we also have to keep in mind that all things are good in moderation - that regardless of whether you are christian or not, that all spiritual beings should have an open mind, and open heart. they should eliminate 'categorization' and suspicion in anyone. it's the zealots we should all be careful of. so, so many fervent religious people i've met in my lifetime - and it has been a LOT - have been so incredibly close-minded. which in turn usually makes them scared and paranoid, and then angry if buttons are pushed in the right manner. we need not forget that the bloodiest of wars hundreds of years ago were formed on the basis of 'christianity and my way of thinking is the ONLY way.'

sorry, TexasSP...none of this is addressed specifically at you - just at that point you made.

[redshift]

Great stuff Tex, thanks for taking the time to put it down.

I at one time did call myself a Christian. And I know many people who call themselves such, while merely going through the motions. I also know many who hold closely to the tenets without actually labeling themselves. They, as I, feel that any such label is a limiting factor. And yes people tend to put themselves in a box, or consider themselves "a breed apart" when all that does is propagate arrogance and more division.

Some of the least tolerant types are the ones who proclaim to have more faith than the average faithful. Naturally many of these end up in positions where they can, and have done significant damage, genocide, etc.

And Tex I think you're plenty wise to know that someone who calls themself an atheist, is not automatically a demon worshiper. You didn't state any such thing, just throwing that out there for others... But many believers do assume such things. They leave no middle ground, and I have a serious problem with that. It doesn't help that so many of the world's "leaders" have hijacked one religion or another and used it to cheapen the real thing, and naturally to get away with unthinkable things. That goes for every nation, no exceptions. We as individuals are so much better. And most of the more ignorant types even know this deep down. The-powers-that-be preach tolerance and understanding, they practice the exact opposite. We could do a hell of a lot better. That's one thing I DO have faith in!

[redshift]

I was typing when you posted Clod, but we said some of the same things, just a bit differently. Great points!

[Finnster]

Originally Posted by simplechamp

I've watched both the original and the addendum. I take it all with a grain of salt. There are some valid points, and also many bogus ones. I really don't care about the movie either way. It is what it is. That's fine. Believe what you want, I'll believe what I want.

What I dislike is when people criticize me for not thinking it's the most eye-opening, life-changing movie ever. It's a movie that asks you to question the entire fabric of society. Yet it's been my experience that when I even slightly question the validity of this movie supporters get very defensive and all of a sudden I'm a "sheep".

So questioning society as a whole = good but questioning a movie made by one guy with a biased viewpoint and questionable "facts" = bad. Makes perfect sense.

http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/

LMAO at that site, least in regards to the Nazi deathcamp/NWO/Freemason conspiracy theory of Denver International Airport.

I had seen that theory before on some crazy site surfing around a while back, but didn't know it was bigger than that. Being a Denver native, I always thought it was pretty amusing, how even simple and straightforward things can get so twisted around by illogical logic. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Dunno about the rest of the thread as I didn't see the movie... Don't take any of the above or below commentary as a veiled opinion of such, its all OT.


I do like what Tex said. Personally I am not religious at all, all the ceremonialism always seemed rather silly to me (no offense,) and am quite firmly atheistic (least towards the big bogeyman in the sky variety.)
I have often been disappointed by the religious, as often faith was used as a cudgel and not for understanding. I used to be angry with it when I was younger, but came to realize those feelings were childish and hypocritical, and have matured past it (most days at least I hope ;) ).

Many religious people seem to entirely miss the point of their religion IMO. They preach tolerance and charity, and practice intolerance and selfishness. (goes for many groups really.) I have much deference for the former and always respect those who too strive for those principals (as easy it is to slip away from them.) To me, the various religions are simply a means to that end, sometimes right and sometimes wrong, as anything else.

No one is perfect, no one person is always right. We are all inevitable victims of ignorance. The trick is to realize it and at least listen with a patient ear, and in the end most of us all want much of the same things anyway, but are not in agreement (and not sure of) on how to get there. This is a quality that seems to be lacking currently in the larger world and we are all lessened by it imo.

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by ClodMaxx

why?

what makes it ok for you to have found God at a young age (or whenever you did) and it be 'suspect' when someone hits rock bottom and finally accepts needing help much bigger than any person? or the average atheist/unbeliever who has some life-changing event and suddenly comes to terms with the fact that there must have been some kind of divine intervention? millions of situations like this happen daily! who are we to decide who really believes and who doesn't? doesn't the fact that them making the decision to end the destructive cycle they're in count for something?

we also have to keep in mind that all things are good in moderation - that regardless of whether you are christian or not, that all spiritual beings should have an open mind, and open heart. they should eliminate 'categorization' and suspicion in anyone. it's the zealots we should all be careful of. so, so many fervent religious people i've met in my lifetime - and it has been a LOT - have been so incredibly close-minded. which in turn usually makes them scared and paranoid, and then angry if buttons are pushed in the right manner. we need not forget that the bloodiest of wars hundreds of years ago were formed on the basis of 'christianity and my way of thinking is the ONLY way.'

sorry, TexasSP...none of this is addressed specifically at you - just at that point you made.

I think you misunderstood my context of the "found God" part. I have never found God because to be found something must have been hidden and it's the expression and the idea it propagates that bothers me.

I was not taking anything away from people who have come into a relationship with God which I stated in the "may or may not have part" of my sentence. Please understand special I am not and do not have anything that is not available to anyone else. I am volunteering with recovering addicts and felons right now and do not hold myself above them in anyway. I was an addict myself. I am the same as them and they are the same as me. I celebrate anyone who has hit rock bottom and come to a relationship with God as a result. In fact I believe rock bottom is where most people really experience God's love. I know that's were I first did and first started to truly understand it. In fact one of the other two men being crucified along with Jesus was definitely at rock bottom when he saw and experienced God's love.

Please understand I may poorly articulate what I am trying to say which is why I direct myself and others back to the Bible for clarification.

Back to Redshift I know Atheists are not demon worshipers. It doesn't really work. For one to worship the devil you must believe in God as well. I have known satanists and talked with them about their beliefs. They do not reject the existence of God but reject him as their savior/provider. Most in fact show anger towards God. I have atheist friends and certainly do not reject them.

Again none of the questions or anything else anyone has presented offends me. For the ones whom it does offend and/or scare I can only suspect that they have weak faith to begin with. When those type things offended me in my past and/or scared me I know it was because of my own weak faith so that is the only answer I have. I am not stating this as fact just an observation based on my own life experience with it.

Really, when it comes to religion and the behavior of religious people, I pretty much agree with most of you. I have no problem with the questions, thoughts, answers and so on and actually really appreciate what is going into them.

I will give a quick example in reference to my feelings. There is a group called Triple X Church that has a website at www.XXXchurch.com and they minister to the porn industry. I remember several years ago reading an example from someone in the group in reference to a Porn Conference they were at in Vegas.

A guy (you know the type I am sure) is set up with his pamphlets outside the convention ranting on in the name of Jesus about how the porn people were all going to hell and how Jesus hates them. One of the porn stars in response says "I thought Jesus loved everyone" more of a statement than question. The guy with XXX Church mused at how the porn star was correct while the "religious" leader was wrong, dead wrong.

There are many other stories on the website about interactions with hateful "religious" people as well. I remember seeing these same types at every Slayer, Pantera, White Zombie, Metallica, and so on concert that I have ever been too.

[redshift]

Best we can do is agree to disagree. That's a huge advantage we have over our keepers.