gas price in usa?

[lutach]

Originally Posted by Finnster

@ Luc: What I meant is that if the US switched a lot of the gasoline usage to EtOH, it would overwhelm world EtOH supplies. From the figures I saw, the US and Brasil produce ~4B gallons of EtOH a yr each. The US consumes ~400M gallons of gas a day. IE, we would burn thru the world supply in less than a month.

From the US perspective, we spend a lot of (tax) money, and have a huge corn lobby, building and protecting a(n inferior) corn-based EtOH supply.

From Brasil's view, they've spend decades building pure EtOH based transportation and economy. If left unchecked, the US could piss thru a lot of it very quickly, forcing prices up. As Red pointed out, EtOH burning engines have to be specially designed, so it would not be easy or cheap for Brasil to switch to a petroleum fuel supply to replace the lost EtOH.

I'm not suprized Brasilian EtOH is much cleaner than US corn based EtOH as the starting material is so much cleaner (ie pure sucrose sugar.) Corn would have a lot more complex sugars and starches, as well as plant oils, chaff and other crap that would have to be processed, refined and distilled out.

We make more than that Finnster. We make so much that we have a lot of surplus of it. It wouldn't hurt Brasil one bit if the US decided to mix more Ethanol into the gasoline. Brasil has plenty of petrol too, so we are good. More and more deposits are being found, but since Brasil doesn't consume as much as we do here in the US, we don't refine it. Cars built in Brasil are all flex fuel and since here it would be a higher mixture of gasoline, it would provide the protection the engine needs. I have a converter that allows any gas cars to run on E85. I used it in my VW Passat in Florida and ran well. I hope the US imports ethanol from Brasil, it would make my family happy .

[redshift]

I get the impression alot of this is driven by the environMENTALists, but I don't see what good it will do when we have piles of unusable motor vehicles. This on top of our ultra-retarded cash for clunkers euthanasia programs.

Luc we could definitely learn a few things from Brazil- sorry you spell it Brasil don't you. Well at least we have one Brasilian to learn from!

I've seen that acetone is a good additive, and people claim it will actually increase mileage. I don't know, it seems our gov't will make our vehicles guinea pigs without us doing more of the same. I'd pay to see some of these idiots drink what comes out of the pump, that would be satisfying for me.

[BrianG]

I want to know how the idea of using algea as a fuel source is. Two different but similar approaches:

http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/20319/
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science...oil/index.html

I rather like this a LOT. The second link, while supposedly not as energy dense, seems to be more of a green solution.

[lutach]

Originally Posted by redshift

I get the impression alot of this is driven by the environMENTALists, but I don't see what good it will do when we have piles of unusable motor vehicles. This on top of our ultra-retarded cash for clunkers euthanasia programs.

Luc we could definitely learn a few things from Brazil- sorry you spell it Brasil don't you. Well at least we have one Brasilian to learn from!

I've seen that acetone is a good additive, and people claim it will actually increase mileage. I don't know, it seems our gov't will make our vehicles guinea pigs without us doing more of the same. I'd pay to see some of these idiots drink what comes out of the pump, that would be satisfying for me.

You can spell Brasil the US way, I won't get angry . I'm still learning new things everyday, but when it comes to Ethanol, Brasil is like the Middle East when it comes to petrol . I use a cap full of acetone every time I fill my gas tank. It didn't work very good in my Dodge RAM . Want to see some foul work at play? Look at how out of nowhere some auto makers have somehow increased their MPG when things were at it's worst. It seems that the whole BS system is just collapsing on itself. I urge people to go visit other countries and learn from them and then see how things plays here. If I knew better, I wouldn't have someone I love so much be in the position she's in. Trust me on this one, when I get all the stuff I need to make my point clear, the whole world will change (For the better I hope).

[redshift]

What kind of results did you see with the acetone lutach (good and bad)?

Originally Posted by lutach

I urge people to go visit other countries and learn from them

I agree, and no doubt more of us would, if we weren't spending all our money on fake gasoline....

Brian both those look like good options. I think dead lobbyists would make a better (and almost limitless) fuel source however

[thzero]

More conspiracies! Gotta love it!

Originally Posted by lutach

Want to see some foul work at play? Look at how out of nowhere some auto makers have somehow increased their MPG when things were at it's worst. It seems that the whole BS system is just collapsing on itself. I urge people to go visit other countries and learn from them and then see how things plays here. If I knew better, I wouldn't have someone I love so much be in the position she's in. Trust me on this one, when I get all the stuff I need to make my point clear, the whole world will change (For the better I hope).

[lutach]

Originally Posted by thzero

More conspiracies! Gotta love it!

Where are you from?

Chris Sxxxxxxxx (Hollywood), you're a webprogrammer right. Have you done a little hacking? If so, you can easily find good and true information if you wanted. You would be surprised of the things I know.

[Finnster]

@Luc: No prob man, I'm sure you do. Some some old numbers I saw.
Politics and protectionism is all wrapped up in this. Energy business has some sharp elbows. I'm all for more EtOH.

@ Brian:
That's interesting stuff. I'd seen a bit of it before, but nothing recent. I kinda wondered if was a BS ploy by some of the oil companies to green wash their biz. Exxon has been touting the tech, saying they invested a few hundred mil it in, but that's pennies to what's put into oil.

Funny reading some of that. I met my wife as as an undergrad in a lab she was doing a PhD degree in that was located in CO and worked on cellulosic biomass conversion for fuel ethanol at the time (late 90's.) We worked w. NREL in Golden quite a bit and got some grant money from them. Overall tho, we were the poorest lab in the dept. There was no money for alt E research when gas is $1/gal.

Now its a booming field. My wife left and works in a completely different field now. My bro in law is a Chem E prof, and he is always bemoaning my wife she didn't stay in the field as its so hot.

As far as the article goes, they did gloss over a huge caveat. Basically the same one we wrestled with, where do you get the sugars to start with to ferment into EtOH? That's the bitch. Getting sucrose from sugar cane and beets is fairly easy, but that crop is limited to warm & wet areas. If you really want to displace oil, you need way way more. Simply from corn and such displaces food crops. You can get it from all these other sources (ie farm waste, grass cuttings, paper, etc) but its really hard to process, as there are so many other plant fibers and compounds that F up your process (ie enzymes or catalysts.) You can't do it chemically (ie sulphuric acid) as its just too harsh and expensive to be viable.

It will happen eventually, but that article is FOS that its 5-10 years away for much widespread use. That's fishing for grant money. It will need alot of money and research and some smart breakthru's.

[Finnster]

Originally Posted by lutach

..Look at how out of nowhere some auto makers have somehow increased their MPG when things were at it's worst. It seems that the whole BS system is just collapsing on itself. I urge people to go visit other countries and learn from them and then see how things plays here. If I knew better, I wouldn't have someone I love so much be in the position she's in. Trust me on this one, when I get all the stuff I need to make my point clear, the whole world will change (For the better I hope).

I saw somewhere that by producing a "flex fuel" engine, the car makers can assume a 50% gain in MPG as applied to the CAFE stds, never mind if its actually ever used that way. I wonder if a lot of it is just accounting tricks to get around new stds and for marketing.

[squeeforever]

Honestly, I think the whole thing is retarded. E85 is a joke, and so is adding ethanol to fuel (I think its 10%). I can't stand it! That shit makes my truck run like GARBAGE and wreaks havoc on my carburetor. I've had to retard the timing so much its not even funny because of that stuff and there is only one place I know of in BR that doesn't have it in there gas. E85 is BS to be honest. It cost almost just as much, and actually decreases the gas mileage. Not many benefits to be honest and around here, is HARD to find...The only benefits I've seen is if you have a high horsepower turbo or supercharged motor, since the ethanol cools the intake charge and lets you run higher boost with no detonation, but in most applications, like everyday use, its stupid. I'm more of a performance oriented person (obviously...) and I really dislike hybrids, Flexfuel, yada yada. Its all a joke really...I've seen hybrids and such get worse gas mileage than my car can get relatively stock. My car (2000 Camaro SS 6 speed) can get OVER 30mpg on the highway and over 20 in town with just a few small things done that not only help performance, but also help fuel economy. Intake, exhaust, etc. and I've seen them get upwards of 32mpg with the 6 speed, and still have over 350hp at the rear wheels. I'd MUCH rather that than some retarded hybrid that only gets a few more mpg if that. I dunno. I just can't stand all these ugly cars that people buy because they think they are helping reduce emissions and help global warming, but I don't really believe in that BS. The earths orbit changes quite a bit and is why its been getting warmer in the last few decades, but anyone notice how harsh this winter was? There was snow on the ground of 49 out of 50 states just the other day. It's only snowed maybe 5 or 6 times in Baton Rouge in the last 20 years, and 4 of the times have been in the last 2 years... Three, I believe, where this year...

[BrianG]

Squee, that's kinda odd. I noticed an increase of ~2mpg and noticeably more power when I started using ethanol mix instead of regular gas. I even switched back for a time just to see if it was just perception. I just drive an '05 Mazda 3 (2.3L NA engine). Maybe the reduction in power and fuel eff only affects larger engines (although I can't imagine why).

[squeeforever]

Originally Posted by BrianG

Squee, that's kinda odd. I noticed an increase of ~2mpg and noticeably more power when I started using ethanol mix instead of regular gas. I even switched back for a time just to see if it was just perception. I just drive an '05 Mazda 3 (2.3L NA engine). Maybe the reduction in power and fuel eff only affects larger engines (although I can't imagine why).

Keep in mind, my truck is a '69 C10 with 3.73's in the rear, 3 speed auto with no overdrive, 357 smallblock with a Holly 650, yada yada, but that stuff (NOT E85, just normal gas with 10% ethanol) makes it run like GARBAGE. What I was talking about though, was E85. You actually get worse gas mileage with it, which the only upside to that would be that its cheaper than standard gas, but around here (and alot of places), its only a little cheaper and doesn't really make it any better of a choice than normal gas. I'm not sure how the standard gas with the 10% ethanol helps gas mileage on a fuel injected motor, just mine, and I get worse gas mileage AND performance.

[BrianG]

Yeah, I don't use E85 (car not set up for it). I also have variable valve timing too, so maybe that helps.

[lutach]

Originally Posted by squeeforever

Honestly, I think the whole thing is retarded. E85 is a joke, and so is adding ethanol to fuel (I think its 10%). I can't stand it! That shit makes my truck run like GARBAGE and wreaks havoc on my carburetor. I've had to retard the timing so much its not even funny because of that stuff and there is only one place I know of in BR that doesn't have it in there gas. E85 is BS to be honest. It cost almost just as much, and actually decreases the gas mileage. Not many benefits to be honest and around here, is HARD to find...The only benefits I've seen is if you have a high horsepower turbo or supercharged motor, since the ethanol cools the intake charge and lets you run higher boost with no detonation, but in most applications, like everyday use, its stupid. I'm more of a performance oriented person (obviously...) and I really dislike hybrids, Flexfuel, yada yada. Its all a joke really...I've seen hybrids and such get worse gas mileage than my car can get relatively stock. My car (2000 Camaro SS 6 speed) can get OVER 30mpg on the highway and over 20 in town with just a few small things done that not only help performance, but also help fuel economy. Intake, exhaust, etc. and I've seen them get upwards of 32mpg with the 6 speed, and still have over 350hp at the rear wheels. I'd MUCH rather that than some retarded hybrid that only gets a few more mpg if that. I dunno. I just can't stand all these ugly cars that people buy because they think they are helping reduce emissions and help global warming, but I don't really believe in that BS. The earths orbit changes quite a bit and is why its been getting warmer in the last few decades, but anyone notice how harsh this winter was? There was snow on the ground of 49 out of 50 states just the other day. It's only snowed maybe 5 or 6 times in Baton Rouge in the last 20 years, and 4 of the times have been in the last 2 years... Three, I believe, where this year...

I thought to get the best out of E85 or higher one needs to advance the timing. Why are you using E85 though? Most application that would fully benefit from it would be forced induction and high compression engines.

[lutach]

Originally Posted by squeeforever

Keep in mind, my truck is a '69 C10 with 3.73's in the rear, 3 speed auto with no overdrive, 357 smallblock with a Holly 650, yada yada, but that stuff (NOT E85, just normal gas with 10% ethanol) makes it run like GARBAGE. What I was talking about though, was E85. You actually get worse gas mileage with it, which the only upside to that would be that its cheaper than standard gas, but around here (and alot of places), its only a little cheaper and doesn't really make it any better of a choice than normal gas. I'm not sure how the standard gas with the 10% ethanol helps gas mileage on a fuel injected motor, just mine, and I get worse gas mileage AND performance.

Set up your engine properly and you'll be surprised. You could either set an engine for more power or better efficiency, but the point of Ethanol specially the ones made from sugar canes, is the renewable factor of it. Doesn't higher octane gas have higher amount of Ethanol (Maybe Methanol) in it? I know E85 is 105 octane so it's almost like using 110 race gas.