New Arizona SB1070 Law

[Arct1k]

I like RC cars! Especially brushless ones...

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by lutach

Illegal Immigrants don't put a dent in the employment situation mainly because the jobs they do you wouldn't do and the economy because they didn't cause the mess the world is in today. They do support business' as they have to buy food, clothe and other things they need. Ask the US to send them all back and we will see the affect of it and it's not going to be pretty.

You contradict yourself here though. On one hand you say the illegal immigrants have little effect but on the other you say they do.

What are these jobs that not single natural born US citizen won't do exactly?

As for being bilingual why does the immigrant have the advantage? I know plenty of bilingual natural born citizens. What about an immigrant from another English speaking country? What advantage do they have? It seems to me you favor immigrants because you are an immigrant.

It really seems as though you want to paint in broad strokes natural born US citizens as being stupid, lazy, and wanting to much money for a job while praising all immigrants as being smart, hard working, and willing to work for much less.

Like BrianG said laziness and stupidity knows no racial background or country of origin. There are plenty of these all over the world.

As far as the welfare and handouts go I want it stopped for everyone. No just illegal immigrants and not just Hispanic people. Caucasians, African-Americans, Hispanics, Asians, and so on all need to have the cord cut.

Finally you must understand that the problem with illegal immigration is not just the employment as that is only one small factor. It is the criminal activity, the hand outs, and the other problems it brings with it. Go take a look at pictures from border crossings on the Arizona border, Texas too. The shear amount of trash left behind is enough to make your stomach turn. Then you have the people who live in these areas who are constantly being robbed, the property being trashed and vandalized, dead bodies being found. This is real and one of the most important issues regarding illegal immigration.

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by Arct1k

I like RC cars! Especially brushless ones...

Don't worry Arct1k I think we all are fine and would be happy to go share a beer with one another. Except ZPB, we might have to stick him in a closet with a bottle of Tequila by himself but the rest of us are okay!

If everyone agreed all the time it would get boring really quick. I mean marriages would just get downright drab..........

[zeropointbug]

Originally Posted by JERRY2KONE

Obviously you really do live in your own little world don't you? Just to make myself clear. I am a Federal Investigator and I work for one of the US Gov agencies all over the world. If you really think there are no terrorists already living in the US, or that they do not want to hurt Americans then you truly have no idea what is going on around you. Wake up and smell the fertalizer. These people want only one thing, and that is every living human being dead who is not part of their beliefs. We are their number one target, and you can bet your sweet freedoms that they are scheming every single day to hit us where it hurts. They do not discriminate against men, women, or children and they do not care who gets hurt in their wake of destruction. Fox, CNN, NBC, CBS, or whatever other channel you wish to believe in does not really matter, because all of them are reporting the same thing from different angles, and that is that these people mean business no matter what you want to see on TV from your own perspective. That is what frustrates the young men and women in our own military is people like you who have no incling of how their efforts protect you and your freedoms from the terror that is out there trying to get to you and our American way of life. I guess you won't really wake up until they are standing in your living room with a machette at your throat. Open your eyes grass hopper. The world is in chaos and the bad is winning.

Jerry, you are clearly very brain washed, you are living in a box in your mind that your own GOVERNMENT, NOT terrorists, created. Don't be so bloody naive for thinking some diaper heads from some distant land want to kill you... all you have to do is look at your own life... who starts all the wars? Who created a false/fake monetary system to enslave the people? Who carries out false flag operations on their own soil and blames it on the 'terrorists'? Who wants to constantly spoon feed you $#!% food? Who wants to stick you with a needle every chance they get with toxic crap? Who wants to gladly sell you drugs that are known to cause millions of deaths each year and declare the beneficial herbs (Cannabis) ILLEGAL? Who wants to then profit off of the health problems and death caused by said food and medicine? Who went in to many many foreign countries sold them GMO crop seeds saying they are "magic seeds", then while their crops completely failed, destroying the soil along with it, the IMF and World Bank come in quietly saying "oh, too bad, we will help you, give you a bit of money, GMO food, medicines, vaccines, all you have to do is sign this contract with us so we can destroy your country"? Who is it that will tax you, tax your horse, tax your land, tax your house, tax your food, tax your livelihood, tax your etc, etc, etc? Who does that? Who are the people who claim their country has ALL the freedom in the world and say they have a democracy, then go into other countries, free countries, and wipe out their government, create war and hardship and famine? Who creates corporations, and industrial corporations creating needless jobs to feed other needless jobs, meanwhile polluting the air, soil, and water of the earth? Military-Industrial complex anyone? Who sets up a fake stock market with imaginary numbers with imaginary ups and downs, and meanwhile behind the scenes pulling strings, manipulating it, pulling out before said drop happens, putting 'shorts' on a drop before it drops (Goldman Sachs put shorts on the Gulg oil spill, made 100's millions)......

What do YOU think is the root problem to the issues of the world? Tell me, who does these things Jerry? You say you are a US Investigator? I say you don't know anything. That's not my opinion, that is the truth.

[BrianG]

Originally Posted by Arct1k

I like RC cars! Especially brushless ones...

That's nice. Now, go play with your toy car in the sandbox and let the grownups talk.

[lutach]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

You contradict yourself here though. On one hand you say the illegal immigrants have little effect but on the other you say they do.

What are these jobs that not single natural born US citizen won't do exactly?

As for being bilingual why does the immigrant have the advantage? I know plenty of bilingual natural born citizens. What about an immigrant from another English speaking country? What advantage do they have? It seems to me you favor immigrants because you are an immigrant.

It really seems as though you want to paint in broad strokes natural born US citizens as being stupid, lazy, and wanting to much money for a job while praising all immigrants as being smart, hard working, and willing to work for much less.

Like BrianG said laziness and stupidity knows no racial background or country of origin. There are plenty of these all over the world.

As far as the welfare and handouts go I want it stopped for everyone. No just illegal immigrants and not just Hispanic people. Caucasians, African-Americans, Hispanics, Asians, and so on all need to have the cord cut.

You have to look beyond just what is happening in the USA to know what I mean. The issue will go deeper then what is seen in the news. Countries will get involved and when those countries supplying the US with many of the things US people needs, then you'll see exactly my point.

Would you cut someone's grass, trim their trees, clean the pool, clean their homes, wash the dishes, pick fruits and vegetables that machines can't do, collect garbage and so forth?

As a business owner I need to make as much profit as I can to keep my business going as well as pay my bill and buy things my family needs. So why would I hire someone asking for $45K then someone willing to do the same job for $25K? Like I said, look at the source of the problem and that is the one who employees the illegal. Yes, I do favor someone who is from another country, because of accent propose only. I have twin little brothers born here and their Portuguese is awful. You also failed to see where I wrote, that I wouldn't give an illegal immigrant employment. So you're missing a few points I'm trying to get across. Yes, I'm proud to be a Brasilian, US legal immigrant who pays a shit load in taxes and raises a beautiful daughter (US citizen) as a single parent.

That one is your opinion because that's not how I see it. You said that not me. I used to be a stock broker and the guys I worked with and for are some of the brightest guys I know. I learned how to sell because of them. The point I'm trying to make is the fact that people think it's only the illegal immigrant's fault, but they failed to see who gives them jobs.

The last 2, I agree with you 100%.

I do not favor anyone and I would love to see everyone work legally. Now as far a taxes goes, what are our tax money used for? It would be good if they give the Illegal the Tax I.D. Number I mentioned a few times, so they can pay taxes as well and if they don't they should get punished for their actions. More taxes for the USA more money to do what ever.

So I'll say this one more time. Want illegal immigrants to stop coming here, ask the money hungry corporate bastards to stop giving them jobs. It's that simple. With no money, they'll have to go back to their country or go to another country.

[snellemin]

Originally Posted by lutach

I do not favor anyone and I would love to see everyone work legally. Now as far a taxes goes, what are our tax money used for? It would be good if they give the Illegal the Tax I.D. Number I mentioned a few times, so they can pay taxes as well and if they don't they should get punished for their actions. More taxes for the USA more money to do what ever.

So I'll say this one more time. Want illegal immigrants to stop coming here, ask the money hungry corporate bastards to stop giving them jobs. It's that simple. With no money, they'll have to go back to their country or go to another country.

I agree with this.

And I love fast RC's too.

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by lutach

I do not favor anyone and I would love to see everyone work legally. Now as far a taxes goes, what are our tax money used for? It would be good if they give the Illegal the Tax I.D. Number I mentioned a few times, so they can pay taxes as well and if they don't they should get punished for their actions. More taxes for the USA more money to do what ever.

So I'll say this one more time. Want illegal immigrants to stop coming here, ask the money hungry corporate bastards to stop giving them jobs. It's that simple. With no money, they'll have to go back to their country or go to another country.

The problem I have with the first is that they have a way to do this now. They can file for legal immigration status ie a visa then pay taxes.

We should also be punishing anyone who hires illegals as well, no argument there.

As for the landscaping part, I have done it. I also take care of my own. I also have a good friend in the landscaping business who has several Caucasians including his brother that works for him. He also started the business himself doing the work himself. This even after being a college graduate from Texas A&M University. Sorry, I know too many people who do these things and do not buy into "they do the jobs other American's won't".

To your other point about employees that deal can go both ways. I am a business owner too and have worked for corporations and see both sides.

Case in point was several years back when I was looking for a CNC Machinist/Programmer. I had people submitting resumes who I could have gotten for 15 an hour as a basic machinist. However, they could not meat my needs as a programmer and advanced operator. I had to have someone in the 25-30 dollar per hour range as no one with those qualifications would work for less be it Hispanic, Caucasian, or any other race. By the way, the person I did end up hiring was an immigrant here legally from Scotland. He was/is an awesome machinist and programmer I might add!

Taking your example into consideration I would also be highly suspect as to the quality of work or the ability to do the job from someone who would take 25k per year to do a job that typically pays 45k per year.

As for someone refusing to "lower" themselves when they are out of work, that is a different story. But there are caveats there as well. I found that while I was unemployed people were nervous of hiring for a job I was technically "over qualified" for. Most likely because they had the belief that as soon as something better came along I would be gone. This same issue has been seen by others I know.

There are also employers out there that will purposely low ball you an offer because they think you are desperate and they can get more for less just because. That is a good reason as not to act desperate when job searching even if you truly are.

[lutach]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

The problem I have with the first is that they have a way to do this now. They can file for legal immigration status ie a visa then pay taxes.

We should also be punishing anyone who hires illegals as well, no argument there.

As for the landscaping part, I have done it. I also take care of my own. I also have a good friend in the landscaping business who has several Caucasians including his brother that works for him. He also started the business himself doing the work himself. This even after being a college graduate from Texas A&M University. Sorry, I know too many people who do these things and do not buy into "they do the jobs other American's won't".

To your other point about employees that deal can go both ways. I am a business owner too and have worked for corporations and see both sides.

Case in point was several years back when I was looking for a CNC Machinist/Programmer. I had people submitting resumes who I could have gotten for 15 an hour as a basic machinist. However, they could not meat my needs as a programmer and advanced operator. I had to have someone in the 25-30 dollar per hour range as no one with those qualifications would work for less be it Hispanic, Caucasian, or any other race. By the way, the person I did end up hiring was an immigrant here legally from Scotland. He was/is an awesome machinist and programmer I might add!

Taking your example into consideration I would also be highly suspect as to the quality of work or the ability to do the job from someone who would take 25k per year to do a job that typically pays 45k per year.

As for someone refusing to "lower" themselves when they are out of work, that is a different story. But there are caveats there as well. I found that while I was unemployed people were nervous of hiring for a job I was technically "over qualified" for. Most likely because they had the belief that as soon as something better came along I would be gone. This same issue has been seen by others I know.

There are also employers out there that will purposely low ball you an offer because they think you are desperate and they can get more for less just because. That is a good reason as not to act desperate when job searching even if you truly are.

Good points. In the economic situation we are in today, people will be quick to point the finger and most of the time they are pointing in the wrong direction. I see more and more companies letting people go so the shareholders and executives can still pocket their big paychecks knowing too well the employees made them that money. I for one would love to get someone to help me make more sales, but I haven't found a single person that can sales as good or better then me and that includes family and friends. I hope things works out for the best.

[DCastaneda]

As an American-born person of Cuban descent, I cannot agree more with instilling immigration laws on the southern border. It is one thing to be a genuine refugee from a country full of oppression such as my family did (legally with an exit visa). But to come over here illegally, avoid taxes, and expect special treatment while you're at it is simply absurd. There's always at least a few Mexicans waiting over at the local Home Depot, Lowes, etc. amongst other locations waiting to be hired illegally and it pisses me off. While so many US citizens including professionals with hard-earned college degrees are left without work.

The hardships of today's economy are very real and illegals are not helping better the situation in the least. I'd rather hire an upstanding, tax-paying citizen more for the same job any day of the week. the problem is many employers look for the easy way out and seek cheap labor. I agree with the idea of some form of official identification/ S.S. for illegal immigrants so they too can be taxed.

Originally Posted by JThiessen

You are correct. But if you took the migrant workers out of the picture, now what happens to the cost of crop maintenance (weed picking, etc), and crop picking. It goes up significantly IMHO, as you wont get Joe Shmo to put down his latte' to go out and do it with out spending some bucks on labor, or expensive machinery to do it.



Can you believe they are extending benenfits for up to 99 weeks now?? Un-freakin'-believable. You cant tell me a person can't get some kind of employment in that kind of time. Yeah, you might have to ditch that home in burbs, but bad things happen....our govt is spending more on putting diapers on all the babies in this country than they are governing.

Good example of this is an acquaintance of mine (friend of a friend) who's milking unemployment for all he can. He gets $800 every month and has been for quite a few months now and blows it all on beer and other non-essentials not even bothering to look for a job, while others work their asses off at minimum wage to get the same amount of money after tax.

This is the kind of crap that needs to end, along with food stamps and any other free aid provided by the government. Socializing medicine only adds insult to injury. And the government facilitating a lazy America only screws who else but the meat of the taxpayers, the middle class. Why not cut the middle man and let me give a portion of my paycheck to the lazy bastards instead of having it spent so inefficiently by our wonderful government of ours?

/end rant

[reno911]

Oh and our government loves illegals that pay their taxes. When working at UPS an employee of mine married an illegal. She had a social security number and everything, but it was purchased when she came to America by her older sister. So when my employee filed her taxes for the first time ever, the IRS responded something like this. Thanks, for paying your taxes, however this social security number is not yours, for future reference please use this number. Tax ID # ******. I thought it was funny as hell, not only did they acknowledge that she was an illegal the IRS did nothing to report her, instead like anybody else, they managed a way go around the fact that she is an illegal since they were profiting from her.

[Arct1k]

Originally Posted by BrianG

That's nice. Now, go play with your toy car in the sandbox and let the grownups talk.

When are the grown ups due?

[Finnster]

NP guys.

@TX: I'll admit I'm painting in some pretty broad strokes, but part is a responce to the broad strokes painting all the Mexicans who come here as lazy illegal leeches mooching tax dollars & contributing nothing. I know this is not true, well it may be true for some, esp closer to the border towns, but there are a good number of people who come here to work their asses off and ask very little. I also don't like that the system is so out of control that any latino is likely regarded as an illegal to be suspicious of when there is a large number that are legal immigrants or US citizens themselves.

There are mooches across the system and across nationalities and races. We've all seen some of them all.

I will not endorse the sprirt of this law, guilt by suspicion until proven innocent, and I don't think its a good platform for any sort of national reform for a whole host of reasons I won't bother to go into now. I can read the law just fine, and I see what it says and what's possible. For this I'm going to defer to Old Ben and say "Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither." If that's "socialist" (whatever that completely nebulous and arbitrary political pejoritve is chosen to mean at the time) then that's fine with me.

I'm not even all that convinced about the tax issues, as illegals still pay local sales taxes and property taxes (at least their rent money goes towards prop taxes.) Thier wages are so low I doubt they'd owe any Federal taxes anyway, and may actually recieve money back if they properly filed. They won't ever collect SS, so if they don't pay payroll taxes its no loss. As mentioned, a good number of illegals work using fake, stolen or expired tax IDs anyway.

I agree there are terrible problems at the border with criminality, smuggling, etc that are long overdue for Federal action. However these are seperate issues from some of the economic migration issues and each need thier own solution. I'm not joining anti-latino/immigrant punching bag some people seem to be spoiling for. I'm going to save my populist outrage for the real bandits who crashed the economy and looted the treasury to the tune of hundreds of billions and have completely got away with it.

[Finnster]

Originally Posted by Arct1k

When are the grown ups due?

Hopefully by the time the beer comes. Think I'm heading home and cracking one open. Cheers everyone and thank you for the civility.

[JERRY2KONE]

Originally Posted by finnster

don't worry jerry, your not going to offend me w/ opinions. Essentially i approach this problem as a pragmatist and am skeptical of the idological bs that seems to frame political issues these days.

I do absolutely agree that there is a problem w/ uncontrolled immigration and lack of coherent federal policy, and states like az bear the brunt of it. I grew up in co, so we had our fair share of illegals too. I also strongly agree there should be a low tolerance to criminality for any guests in this country. There are far too many hardworking and motivated people who would love to come here to tolerate anyone's bull$hit.
However, not only do i think this law will do much to stop ii, i do fundamentally disagree with the notion that we should be making laws that everyone needs to carry gov't papers with them at all times, and that is a crime to not seem american enough if you get caught w/o your papers. Yeah i'm white, so even tho az promises there will be no racial profiling, everyone is going along w/ it with the implicit guarantee that the leos are only going to be after brown people. The az gov basically admits it by omission.

now see that is whats confusing. We are already required to carry id. Every adult is ither suposed to have a drivers license, or a state id if you do not drive. Even kids are supposed to be carrying a school id of some kind. You have to hold proper id to drink alcohol, purchase smokes, or enter any adult establihsment. So how is this any inconvenience at all.

my cousin in utah is married to a bolivian, who is a citizen and is earning a law degree, and if they visit az, and if he decides he's going to take a walk in the park or go for a hike with his girls and he doesn't bring his wallet, my cousin shouldn't be getting a phone call from an ins detention facility that her family got arrested bc dad still speaks with an accent and his english is still a bit rough. That's just f'd up and i don't care who you are.

no one should be without an id, and if one goes out without id then you take that risk of being questioned. Like i stated we are not living in the 1930's anymore.

also, i work in the science field and we manufacture medical devices. I do think america is very skilled at manufacturing. We have european (or better) level of quality for much less expensive. The products china build are cheaper, but far inferior in quality and trustworthiness. We lose out on the low end as sometimes crappy is good enough.

However, on the high end, what i am not seeing is many americans with the skills and education to do the technical jobs. Just in my area i work with people (scientists/engineers) from china, india, nigeria, kenya, sudan, poland, russia, czech r., philippenes, pakistan, greece, uk, hiati, dom rep, puerto rico, costa rica, brazil, camaroon, to name a few. I'm not sure americans are even the majority.
My brother in law is a chem e professor and its a similar story. Few qualified american graduate students to choose from, so the dept accepts many students from india and china with the neccessary background and accomplishment.
Nursing school is another good example of this.

that is the perfect example of the laziness of americans i was talking about earlier. We have become a nation of spoiled ungreatful people who expect that nothing is going to change. How sad is that?

so the question i ask, why are all these americans out protesting and complaining about mexicans coming and stealing their shitty jobs digging ditches for $8/hr? If your job is easily replacable by an illiterate from a 3rd world country, then you need to get your ass back to school and get a better education because there are thousands of high paying jobs going to legal h1 visa holders who have little american competition. Its rather pathetic actually given the opportunity citizens are born into here.

I also think low wage mexicans/etc also contribute alot to american business competitiveness. I think the nation could do a lot more "low end" manufacturing combining american management techniques, innovation, and solid infrastructure with low wage guest workers to keep labor costs low, thus prices low, to compete better with crappy chinese goods. Alot of other things need to happen too, but we also have to get over the xenophobia and start looking at the business opportunities. Imo, the mexican infracture is too poor and the govt too corrupt to effectively utilize their low wage resource. We can take advantage of that for everyone's benefit.

If in the end we send a portion of this prosperity back to mexico to build that country, enlarge the middle class, are create a larger consumer economy for american goods, all the better for us. The future prosperity for america is not going to be built on protectionism and low skill jobs for lazy & lowly educated natives. The world is catching up and we need to work harder and be smarter if we want to keep the privledges we have.

life is good