Westboro baptist church

[bumsnogger]

Hi.It's a pity that people have religion thrust in their faces.I had 2 hours of religious education at school every week.We have preechers in the street.I had a quality arguement with one of 'em.My Girlfriends mum'd just died,& we had this pillock stood in our way spouting fire & brimstone,If he hadn't been a pensioner,I'd have hospitalized the ****! Why can't people be left to thier own devices,make up thier OWN mind ? These fundamentalists should be stopped from inbreeding, & if you or I stood at a funeral spouting hate,we'd be arrested! They live in the times of the witch hunts. It's the fundamentalists who spout crap,hate that prove to me that there can't a god,if there was,it'd smite these idiots for making it look like an idiot :)

[suicideneil]

Without religion you wouldn't have extremists, and you certainly wouldn't have wars and terror attacks based around such extreme prejudices and intolerance; people would go back to hating eachother for having difference culture and fighting over resources instead

I don't like religion because it essentially uses fear and scare tactics to trick & force people into doing what it/the church wants- just like any other dangerous cult movement. The trouble with the major religions is that they have been going for so long & grown so large they are accepted much more widely as being 'right' or 'safe', vs much newer religions like scientology which anyone can see is just a money making scheme ( see: put a person in cold water and slowly raise the temp until they boil to death, or throw them in boiling water and they'll jump straight out ).

Then there's the hypocrisy...









( see also: richard dawkins video posted earlier )

'Do as we say, or else' essentially. If you want to believe in some higher power, then fine, but people really don't need to be told how to behave and worship, they can do that on their own terms and in their own way, without being effectively threatened into it, if they really must.

You'd think in this day and age people would be strong minded and intelligent enough to see the world for what it is, and enjoy it for what it is, rather than preferring to be told what to think and do because they aren't capable of living a good life on their own...

Neil, It is the Devils will to kill,steal, and destroy not God's. God's will is to give you life more abundantly. The junk you are saying is untruthful and you must lack the ability to comprehend or have never read the bible or you would know what you are talking about. I will be praying for you that you will find the truth and get Jesus.

[suicideneil]

Originally Posted by Fast5sRevo88

Neil, It is the Devils will to kill,steal, and destroy not God's. God's will is to give you life more abundantly. The junk you are saying is untruthful and you must lack the ability to comprehend or have never read the bible or you would know what you are talking about. I will be praying for you that you will find the truth and get Jesus.

The devil is to blame for every bad thing apparently, according to religion; yet at the same time the bible clearly states that god moves in mysterious ways and his will should not be challenged ( ergo- bad things & good things = god, the devil lives in hell and has no control over mortal man ). Also, god kills far more people in the bible than the devil does:



Loving God eh?

You don't like to hear facts and viewpoints based on logic and reason so you just resort to the old 'no no no, god is real and he loves me, cant prove otherwise' nonsense that all christians end up falling back on when challenged and they don't have a good response.



I studied the bible at primary and secondary school actually, just like many people who DON'T believe in god; christians try to get you from an early age, but even then I was too smart to believe that nonsense once I was old enough to understand it for myself, then I could pick apart all the inconsistencies, contradictions and just plain nonsense that christians, the bible and preachers spout.

Don't pray for me, or anyone else; prayer = doing something by nothing at all- Jesus won't come to mine or anyone else's rescue ( hence why so many of our troops are coming home in coffins- work that one out why don't you ).





I know exactly what I'm talking about, hence why I can back it up- all you have is... nothing, except scorn to pour...

[lincpimp]

Great thread!!!

I especially like this pic, and the "hidden deep meaning" :http://images2.fanpop.com/image/phot...4-1280-800.jpg

Ok, here are 2 truths:

1. Faith/belief = a personal view point that may be based on a number of tangilbles and intangibles.

Pretty straight forward, if you belive/have faith you must have some reason, and whatever it is that is fine with me!

2. Religion = Pyramid scheme

If this is not obvious you really need to pay close attention to the "governing parties" of any specific religion. Take catholics, the pope is the top of the "pyramid" and he has untold wealth and power. As soon as he takes office he becomes infallible (so his actions cannot be questioned). Plus if you have ever vistied vatican city there is no doubt they spent some money on it, money they got by "extorting" (look that word up in the dictionary before you jump on me) a very large population of generally undereducated and usually quite poor people. You can find the same basic theme in any of the current religions, not as successful as the catholics, but still working the same angle.

The problem is, the religions have manged to incorporate the faith/belief and have twisted it to their own ends. You only need to look to the fact that alot of people in the world are starving and homeless and you do not see the pope selling off all of the priceless art et al to raise money to feed them and improve their quality of life. I think pretty much any "christian" would have to agree with me that Jesus would want the poor taken care of long before he would want a fancy place to gather.

So while I have no issue with people having beliefs, I do take issue with the fact those believers have allowed themselves to be corraled into "following the leader" with their time and money.

Please see that I am not trying to insult or belittle anyone here. But please, take a step back and try to determine if you are part of something that is positive. Organized religion is alot like a sheep dog, it may keep you away from the wolves, but it will ultimately lead you to slaughter....

And cut Neil some slack, he may not have the proper bedside manner to approach this delicate subject, but he obviously has as much or more passion to illustrate his point.

And as far as the term "atheist" goes, it is a single sided term. It can only be used by a "theist" (one who belives in god) to descibe another who does not share that belief. It is a hard concept to wrap ones mind around. I cannot call myself an atheist, as that would require me to not believe in "something", ergo that "something" does exist (imagine not believing in water, for example.) So I consider myself as "normal" or "constant" and those who believe as "abnormal" or "non-constant". Not in a negative way, just they, for some reason, have decided to believe in something that I do not think exists. Consider that any story has 2 sides, and you know your side is correct when....

[el tomaso]

Anyways, how is the weather these days?

Religious people + Atheist people + religious discussion = fights just waiting to happen.

I myself accept that people are religious, but not when they try convert me, that is just as disrespectfull as atheists making fun of beleiving in god(s). God has saved many souls, even if there were no god the beleif in something bigger than yourself can make life easier. As long as it is not abused.

Thomas G

[TexasSP]

Neil, if you really think their is no extremism outside of religion you should study more. Plenty of wars and conquerers have done damage with no religious affiliation what so ever.

The problem many that follow religion have is that they allow man to limit or attempt to control God, which is impossible. The other big issue is trying to put God the creator into our world and our understanding without allowing for possibilities that our understanding of God will never be complete as is constantly expanding.

Science works much this same way. Our understanding of it is constantly expanding and theories constantly change.

You also make the mistake in looking at believer like me and lumping them into one pot and calling it religion. The other mistake is assuming we some how stop seeking truth or never sought truth and just accepted something as is. Never in this do you really understand that first I am always still seeking truth and that I came to God while seeking answers. Again much them same way science is looked at.

A major problem people who become too religious have is not taking the bible as a whole and trying to understand everything as literal explanations. God in the beginning and through Jesus was never one to give literal explanations. For one reason it is easier for all to understand when using metaphors, comparisons, and parable versus literal explanations. But people move and try to put God inside their own box of their own understanding and limit him by that. If you truly believe in an all powerful God who is the creator of all, then trying to limit this by your personal abilities and understanding is pure fallacy. God gives us plenty of clues in references through out the Bible to show us all is not literal.

Another issue man kind stumbles with is time. Time is something man made for us to understand and document the passage of events. Time by God's own words means nothing to him. The biggest place were this can be seen as a mistake is in the creation story. So many want to be wrapped up in the 7 days when in actuality what we call a day and what God was referencing to is two different things. The creation story is about the events taking place, not the time. Days were given to use because we live by the day based on our earthly lives. It was an easy way for us to understand the sequence of events.

In God's way their is plenty of room for the earth to be billions of years old and for animals to have evolved at different points and for many to have come and gone. Man's mistake again was trying to limit God. It clearly states man came after animals so it was impossible by the Bible's own teaching for man to have been their when the first animal came about. The last thing created was man and after that God stopped and let everything go on it's own. That was the end of his direct hand in creation. The religious groups get so obsessed over the 6k year number they miss the point. That's about how long man has been here give or take, not how long the earth has existed. Again the earth by God's own teachings existed before man, so why keep trying to say the opposite.

The last thing I will part with is that many have the issue with God being as we cannot see, smell, feel, or touch him. I challenge your research into this scientifically as many things we believe that exist in science cannot be easily seen, smelt, felt, or touched. Case in point look into black matter. Something many scientists believe to be there, something that the laws of physics directs must be there, something that is being sought daily by many scientists. It is also something that as of yet has not been proven fact.

Closing one's mind is closing one's mind, doesn't matter if it's faith in God or understanding of science. All in all it's a bad thing.

As for suffering this always comes at the hand of man. What we as people should be doing is helping those in need as instructed by God.

Matthew 25:40

"And the King will say, 'I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!"

James 1:27

"Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you"

[suicideneil]

I probably should have written 'wouldn't have religious extremists'- there will always be people who have very extreme views and take a hard line in all areas of life, it just seems like religion breeds them more than most.

Personal belief systems are fine, anyone is free to believe what they want and worship their own notion of a higher power however they please; it's when people get together and start making rules that force and scare people into worshiping in that certain way that the problems start.

You wont get many answers from god- he doesn't answer the phone, just has an answer-phone message that says 'please leave your requests and wishes after the tone'; if you get a a positive 'reply', its luck, coincidence or because of your own or someone else's efforts, not divine intervention ( see: George Carlin video posted earlier, and the milk jug one too ).

The time thing just makes no sense- you really should study evolution more, and that video about the evolution of the eye; there is no need for a god-figure to have invented or created it, it came about through evolution and adaptation- you can see evolution in action with bird species that specialize in eating different foods and gathering nectar from certain plant species. To say ' oh yeah, god created evolution, he has a guiding hand in it' is just nonsense again- stop making up stories because you feel the need to wish something is true and therefore create a fantasy to validate your belief.

God's teachings didn't exist before 3rd parties wrote them down- you can't teach faith to balls of dust and gas. Here's a good one; what happens if one day in the distant future humanity does make contact with an intelligent alien race, and when they are asked about 'god', they reply 'who'? If god created all life, then to find a race that has no concept of a divine creator, that would just poo-poo all over pretty much every religious teaching out there.

As for quoting bits of the bible to back up a weak argument, try this on for size:





Like I said, for such a loving, caring god/jesus/holy spirit/ cosmic jewish zombie ( isn't that whole concept enough to make you think it's a bunch of silly stories written by bad story tellers? ), he certainly likes to smite people for making the tiniest of mistakes...

God killed in the old testiment, then Jesus died for our sins so that God wont smite us. The Devils home is in hell but he walks on earth looking for souls. And i didnt growup with Christianity being shoved down my throat, i was 22 before i even went to church, so i am certainly not brainwashed. And all of this Catholic junk u r throwing in my face is useless because i dont believe like a Catholic; the pope is just an old man.

[Finnster]

Originally Posted by Fast5sRevo88

God killed in the old testiment, then Jesus died for our sins so that God wont smite us. The Devils home is in hell but he walks on earth looking for souls. And i didnt growup with Christianity being shoved down my throat, i was 22 before i even went to church, so i am certainly not brainwashed. And all of this Catholic junk u r throwing in my face is useless because i dont believe like a Catholic; the pope is just an old man.

First of all I mean this seriously... and I don't mean to call you out, I'm asking retorically.

Why is it then that Christians often quote the OT for the justifications for all sorts of beliefs and policy positions? But then when someone brings up some crazy condemnations in the OT, Christians balk and say that doesn't count and was negated by Jesus and the NT?

EG. Neil's stuff is an example, same as other stories about women supposed to be moved from the house and into huts when they are menstrating, or bashing babies heads on rocks, etc etc.

No one is seriously advocating forcing menstrating women into huts, but in the same breath Christian (conservatives) will use those same texts to use as justification to oppose gays on various issues (or a host of other hot button issues.)
Let's just forget about the idea that biblical law should dictate American law. I no more want Christian Sharia than I want Islamic Sharia.

Its hard for non-christians to take christians seriously when their own stories are so often confused and self-contradictory (and sometimes just mean.) Even the gospels can't get their story straight, and these are the guys who are supposed to have first hand info.

[suicideneil]

Originally Posted by Fast5sRevo88

The Devils home is in hell but he walks on earth looking for souls.

TV shows =/= reality ( see: Reaper ). Now you really are sounding like an escaped mental patient..

And i didnt growup with Christianity being shoved down my throat, i was 22 before i even went to church, so i am certainly not brainwashed. And all of this Catholic junk u r throwing in my face is useless because i dont believe like a Catholic; the pope is just an old man.

Then that makes you a poor christian at best, if you insist on calling yourself religious yet don't believe in following the dogma laid out for you- beleiving in god for the sake of it/ as a safety net for when you die just takes us back to that old 'scared of dying/ illogical' demote poster.

It's amazing how many people turn to religion later in life when A) something bad happens to them- bit late by then to repent your sins and hope you wont burn in hell fire for all eternity, or B) they don't kinow what they want to do with their life so turn to religion for guidance C) some other silly reason because they can't make up their mind or start worrying about their/ their families mortality.

I know of several guys who turned to religion when they had near-death experiences or were diagnosed with a terminal illness, that's hardly a good reason to start believing the almighty is mad at you and you should start paying him more attention.

Get a grip, get a life, and stop worrying about what happens when it's over ( see: Jim Jefferies video posted earlier ).

[Finnster]

I guess that's where I fall on it. I really don't care what anyone believes, and I don't have any campaign to convert anyone one way or the other. Jesus, Allah, Buddah, Zenu or Flying Spagetti Monster, I think they are all a bit nuts, but whatever gets you through the day, and the whole world is nuts anyway.

EG: the gay stuff at issue

I don't care who you want to marry. You want to marry some dude? Knock yourself out. I don't care, it doesn't effect me, and heteros have already made a mockery of marriage anyway with a 50%+ divorce rate, so they should hardly be talking. Esp all these preists and religious types, seeing as so many are closeted homos anyway...

What I don't like is how quickly and often religion is used to to make laws and public policy. I don't think .gov should be butting into people's personal lives and approving or disapproving who you want to live with and marry. I think its quite sinister how many politicians pull out the bible to rile people up on some dumb issue to try and get votes.

Why are we even arguing about gays and the military and marriage? Oh, because some Pol thought it would make a great wedge issue to help turn out conservative votes so he could be re-elected. ***cough, Bush, cough* 2004*** So much for freedom, self-determination and personal responsibility...


Not that the Left hasn't done it in history, but it seems to be an essential tool of right-wing politician's modern election strategy is to go bible-thumping.

So far we got one former front runner calling homos slaves, and running a clinic to "pray the gay away" funded in part with questionable use of tax dollars. Another surging wannabe promising to force american muslims to take "loyaly tests" and ban them from serving in his govt. You have two Mormons being attacked by evangelicals for being cultists and fake christians. There was Rick Santorum (ha!) telling an active duty gay soldier in Iraq that he should go back into the closet and he would see to it as president, meanwhile the audience is booing the soldier b/c he's gay and not one of the lionhearts on stage thinks to defend the soldier, who is in a war zone fighting and potentially dying for his country, but is not entitled to respect b/c of what he does in his own personal time.
Then there is current ~front runner Rick Perry. Wow, buddies with all sorts of wacky extremists to even start on.

Now while there are many respectable Christians (and non-Christians) out there who are very thoughtful, charitiable and temperate people, there seems to be a fairly large mass who want to impose autocratic religious rule on everyone, and are signifigant enough that they are constantly pandered to. There are tolerant Christians, but they are not the people who really have the power.
Its the others I worry about and really feel no motivation to show them deference or admiration for their courage and "faith." I'd just rather everyone STFU on the religious stuff and let people live their lives as they wish. We have enough other problems as it is to go starting needless fights and divisions.

[TexasSP]

Neil, all I can tell you is your conclusions lack logic for the most part. They are based on broad assumptions and little fact. Even when told differently you try and lump everyone into one mold so that you can dismiss them. It's obvious to me there is something more to your anger against Christianity however I won't pretend to know why.

While your cartoons and little poems may make you feel better they lack any reason or fact. They play upon stereotypes and others need to feel superior to those who believe in God.

For the most part, you make the same mistake as those you claim to differ with so much. You try to put everything into a little box of your understanding and that is it there is nothing more.

Finnster, you on the other hand seem to think that the only belief system that matters is yours. If anyone differs then it has no place in society. Very dangerous thinking there. "if it weren't for all those other people things would be just peachy". Sounds a lot like what others have used in the past to validate genocide and murder. Your partisan rhetoric is just plain silly. It's all the other guys fault. Yeah, keep kidding yourself. You are acting just like the ones you claim to so vehemently disagree with. Plenty on the both sides are trying to control life's every facet. But it's okay as long as your side is the ruling class right? That kind of thinking is what leads us into tyranny.

If you really think the eradicating some other group(s) will solve the worlds issues you are very naive. The core issues are always still there.

[Finnster]

Well I'm both impressed and confused that you've taken " I really don't care" and "I'd just rather everyone STFU on the religious stuff and let people live their lives as they wish. We have enough other problems as it is to go starting needless fights and divisions" to mean a pro-genocide agenda.


I'm tired of the crazies. I'm not the only one either. Gov Chris Christie is tired of the crazies and judging by the polls, a good number of people are getting tired of all the nonsense and hate, as well as the current bunch of loons who wish themselves to be the political elites.*

*To their credit, I don't think Ron Paul, Romney, Huntsman or even Gary Johnson have really tried to book tickets on Crazy Train. Christie would prolly just get ran over by it if he actually tried to get in front of it.

[lincpimp]

I hope that everyone here does realize that by attempting to push your own view points and possibly get some sympathy or aggreement, you are in fact attempting to make YOURSELF feel better about your own view points...

Just throwing that out in case anyone was trying to fool themselves into thinking they are 100% correct.

I do often laugh at the old testament, cause I have read it in its entireity (talk about a hard read, makes shakespeare easy), in order (taking things out of context would put me on the same plane as the religious wackos) and it just keeps contradicting itself. I understand that it is a tool to keep people in line, and that it was written in a totally different language and at a completely different time of human existance. So it may vaguely apply right now, IF you interpret it a certain way... There is the rub, you should not be interpretting gods words, they should be pretty clear.

Did the OT work? Humans are still on the planet, so I guess it had some positive effects? Looks like it got the Jews somewhere?

As for the parables, well they are there so that church elders can interpret them to mean whatever they want, and thus use this to steer their masses to feel guilty and pay more when the plate goes by. Notice how the preist/preacher/minister cannot just read the bible out loud and the congregation just gets the meaning? No chance, he then has to spend 45mins "explaining" how matthew 123:1245 (or whatever verse) is a direct order from god that he needs money to buy a new mercedess/add a wing to the church building/or buy raffle tickets.

As far as good old fashioned direct rhetoric goes, the 10 commandments are about it in the bible. Everything else seems like modern day lawyers wrote it so they can find a loophole or something when necessary.

Here is my take on the origins or christianity:

So Jesus may well have existed and done everything that the new testament claims (save for the "miracles", as I am not a beliver in magic). Not a difficult thing to belive, a guy who walks around pointing out the current corruption in his church (he was a jew after all) and generally attempts to get people to be more moral. We have people that do this today, so very beliveable.

Ok, so since the new testament was not written down at the time, and did not really get finalized till 300ad by the now organized catholic church, we can pretty much guarantee that a little enblishment was added here and there. They were humans, after all.

Here is where I get way off the beaten path. So christianity catches on, the romans adopts i, and generally the jewish faith takes a back seat in popularity. I think that the creators of the catholic church were just the same leaders of the jewish faith attempting to put a new spin on their old idea and Jesus and his teachings were a great thing to hide behind. Look at the catholic dogma, it is very similar to the Jewish dogma, and it does sometimes irectly contradict Jesus' teachings in the NT. So they moved from one name to another, but kept the corruption and money and power grabbing ways they had already perfected.

And for all the christians who are not catholics, consider that your various religions came directly from catholicism. So they are all based around the same thing.

Just my thoughts on the matter. I am not an expert at anything, but can often see the forest despite the trees blocking my view.