Thank you mods

[Sower]

Originally Posted by hoovhartid

For me, marriage is just a word. Using it to describe something other than a union between a man and a woman has never threatened my societial building blocks.

"the marriage of music and dance";

"a marriage of ideas";

"married to their work";

"he's married to the mob";

"a marriage between two companies"

...Its a word used in many places to describe a union having nothing to do with a man and a woman.

I could care less about what its called.

I do, however, care about equality, and some laws are written to only include rights and privelages for those who are married. Tax breaks, custody rights, visitation rights, all just a few examples where laws have proclusions for those who are married. Using the actual term "marriage" or "married".

So.... I dont care how it happends, but to make things equal....either gays should have the right to marry, or all the laws that include marriage will need to be rewritten.

Which is faster? costs less money? easier?
How much money has gone into limiting the use of a word?

I'd rather be running my revo.

Am I gay?

Only for the lincPimp and thats only on wednesdays!

No....I'm not gay. But I think we all know someone who is. I happen to know alot of gay people. Some of them care to be married, some could care less. Just like the heterosexual people I know...some care, others dont. I just think everyone should have the same rights. Even the right to call their union whatever they want....weather they want to use the word marriage or not should be upto the couple...not a bunch of others who live in fear for no reason.

That's fine you feel marriage is just a word - but with all due respect, the fact is that words have meanings. Especially marriage.

And I'm all for equality too - when it exists and not when it doesn't. That's what this comes down to. Homosexual unions are not equal to heterosexual unions. The tax breaks and all that stuff go with marriage because of what that union provides to society. Doesn't that make sense? How can you say the two things are equal when they're not?

And I really don't understand the comments about " . . . others who live in fear . . . " I have no idea how you can judge the intentions of others as "fear" when they simply don't agree with you.

[_paralyzed_]

just some food for thought on the marriage topic: I grew up in small town minnesota, I have inherited racist and homophobic traits due to my upbringing; laughing at off color jokes and using terminology that isn't politically correct. However, anybody should be able to do whatever they want as long as no one is physically hurt, and I see everyone as equal. That being said, here is my thought: people talk of the sanctity of marriage, the fact that family and procreation is the building block of society. Thats all fine and dandy, in a perfect world, which we are not in. We are in a world where those of us "allowed" to marry (straight people) abuse the family principle by having bastard children, ruin the sanctity of marriage with extra marital affairs and scoff at the idea of commitment as they are on their 5th marriage and know if it doesn't work this time they can always get divorced. So why is it okay for straight people to get married a dozen times and screw it up and gays can't even get married once? They should make divorce illegal, not gay marriage.

[Sower]

Originally Posted by _paralyzed_

just some food for thought on the marriage topic: I grew up in small town minnesota, I have inherited racist and homophobic traits due to my upbringing; laughing at off color jokes and using terminology that isn't politically correct. However, anybody should be able to do whatever they want as long as no one is physically hurt, and I see everyone as equal. That being said, here is my thought: people talk of the sanctity of marriage, the fact that family and procreation is the building block of society. Thats all fine and dandy, in a perfect world, which we are not in. We are in a world where those of us "allowed" to marry (straight people) abuse the family principle by having bastard children, ruin the sanctity of marriage with extra marital affairs and scoff at the idea of commitment as they are on their 5th marriage and know if it doesn't work this time they can always get divorced. So why is it okay for straight people to get married a dozen times and screw it up and gays can't even get married once? They should make divorce illegal, not gay marriage.

If I'm reading you right, you're saying that since a certain percentage of people don't treat marriage in it's intended context we should just bag the whole thing? Not sure what to say there. What ever happened to principles? Just because people are flawed and fail doesn't mean you stop trying.

And I totally disagree with your argument that people should be able to do whatever they want as long as nobody is physically hurt. In my opinion emotional abuse can be more damaging than physical. And no, I'm not saying homosexual marriage is emotional abuse per se.

[Sower]

You know, this whole thing is weird to me. Why is it so complicated? The fact is that homosexual unions are not natural while heterosexual unions are. Why is that so hard to get? Men and women fit together by nature and the consequences are procreation. Pretty plain and simple to me. I could care less what two homosexuals do with or to eachother, but you can't just re-define the word marriage because you want to and "feel" it's the same. It's just not.

I can't go around and start changing the definition of words because I think they're just words or whatever. This whole thing has nothing to do with any specious arguments about "oh, well so and so has gotten married 18 times" or "oh yeah, well I know a homosexual couple that has been together forever and raised great kids" or whatever else. That has nothing to do with the fact that the unions are different. Not the same but different. Why is that not ok? Why can't they just be different? Can someone please answer that for me?

[_paralyzed_]

Originally Posted by Sower

The fact is that homosexual unions are not natural while heterosexual unions are.

I've seen dolphins, dogs and monkeys all have homosexual sex. Somebody should really tell them they are being unnatural!

just razzin' ya

Originally Posted by Sower

I could care less what two homosexuals do with or to eachother

bajeeezuz....did you have to paint that picture

[_paralyzed_]

of course, abuse of any kind is unacceptable. But emotional abuse and people getting angry or getting their feelings hurt over a discussion is completely different. And I'm not saying we should can it all. It is about principles, thats why I said we should make divorce illegal. Maybe it would make people think twice before entering into such a commitment, and bring back meaning to the word marriage. As it is now marriage is a joke. There is a greater percentage of failed marriages than intact ones, that's fact. So back to my food for thought, why can straight people get married, cheat, get divorced over and over again while a gay can't get married once? Nothing is being saved or protected by banning certain marriages, it only serves to exclude certain human beings from doing what they want to do, and that is not fair.

[Sower]

Originally Posted by _paralyzed_

of course, abuse of any kind is unacceptable. But emotional abuse and people getting angry or getting their feelings hurt over a discussion is completely different. And I'm not saying we should can it all. It is about principles, thats why I said we should make divorce illegal. Maybe it would make people think twice before entering into such a commitment, and bring back meaning to the word marriage. As it is now marriage is a joke. There is a greater percentage of failed marriages than intact ones, that's fact. So back to my food for thought, why can straight people get married, cheat, get divorced over and over again while a gay can't get married once? Nothing is being saved or protected by banning certain marriages, it only serves to exclude certain human beings from doing what they want to do, and that is not fair.

Well, first off I'm not getting my feelings hurt here if that's what you're implying. If I misread that then nevermind

And second - your question is two separate arguments. You're basically saying since some people (regardless of the number) screw up marriage then others should have a chance at it too. That logic assumes that marriage is only established if it is successful to the full extent. That's flawed logic. Marriage is the union of man and woman for procreation and to strengthen the marriage bond. It'a also a recognition of the marriage covenant and reflects God and the Holy Trinity. I know, I know, I am really stepping in it now! Maybe we should avoid the whole area on divorce and religion? I think that would be a good idea, don't you?

I'll try to answer your question straight (no pun inteded) out . . . the integrity of marriage is being saved by banning homosexual marriage as it's legalization puts them on the same level when they're not. Homosexuals cannot concieve a child naturally nor can they provide the opportunity to fully offer proper development of the child as nature intended. Yes, many married people screw it up, but they can continue to perfect something that no homosexual couple can. They can only imitate it to a certain degree.

Also, who is stopping them from doing anything they want to do? Other than gain the title of "marriage"? There are ways to handle the legal stuff, so why isn't that being done instead of calling it marriage?

[hoovhartid]

Originally Posted by Sower

I'll try to answer your question straight (no pun inteded)

That was funny!

I love you too man. no hard feelings here either.

[Sower]

Originally Posted by hoovhartid

That was funny!

I love you too man. no hard feelings here either.

Right on. But by the way, I think I see where you're coming from. We just have to agree to disagree. No hard feelings here at all - we're all human and most of us have different opinions. It's what makes the world go 'round, right?

On a side note - I freaking love your screen name. When I was on the site I had to explain to my wife what it meant. Obviously she didn't laugh as hard as I did.

[hoovhartid]

Sower,
Not tryin to start a fight here. If you were offended I apologise. I know words have meanings. Many times the same word has more than one. (which was my point)

I'm not here to judge you. Its my opinion that when phraises like "basic building block of our society", and "by natural law can only occur from a man and a woman." It just reminds my of my Catholic upbringing. I learned to stay "inline" through fear that if I didn't "God would punish me" or "I would go to hell". Religion has kept people making decisions based on fear. Much like our current government. Again, these are my opinions, not judgements against you or anyone else.

"The tax breaks and all that stuff go with marriage because of what that union provides to society. Doesn't that make sense? How can you say the two things are equal when they're not?" I dont even know where to start here. Who are you to decide that one marriage provides more to society than another? Thats closed-minded, presumptuous, and...the list goes on.

"Homosexual unions are not equal to heterosexual unions" based on what? other than your opinon.

Why/How is one better than the other?