MaxAmps Race Edition Lipos

I don't understand the obsession with graphs. Do you drive graphs? Do you race graphs against everyone else to make the A-Main? Graphs are useless. All that matters is the performance at the loads we put on the packs in this hobby. I believe these packs will more than satisfy the needs of my ESC and motor in my 1/8th scale vehicles.

If a graph gets posted showing the pack handling a 150c load for 1 second, that won't mean a single thing to me. Nor will seeing a graph showing a 75c load for an entire discharge. Seeing my truggy sail to a checkered flag victory in a 12 minute main, clearing the triple every time, that means something to me. Oh, wait, that's what my current MaxAmps 6500 pack did for me just Saturday.

These guys are innovative and enterprising. They make good products and they market them well. On top of all that, they are out there in the hobby. You can see them at RCX, they have a phone number on their web site and now they are even here on this forum. If you are not a fan, so be it but live and let live...

[suicideneil]

Originally Posted by Electric Dave

I don't understand the obsession with graphs. Do you drive graphs? Do you race graphs against everyone else to make the A-Main? Graphs are useless. All that matters is the performance at the loads we put on the packs in this hobby. I believe these packs will more than satisfy the needs of my ESC and motor in my 1/8th scale vehicles.

If a graph gets posted showing the pack handling a 150c load for 1 second, that won't mean a single thing to me. Nor will seeing a graph showing a 75c load for an entire discharge. Seeing my truggy sail to a checkered flag victory in a 12 minute main, clearing the triple every time, that means something to me. Oh, wait, that's what my current MaxAmps 6500 pack did for me just Saturday.

These guys are innovative and enterprising. They make good products and they market them well. On top of all that, they are out there in the hobby. You can see them at RCX, they have a phone number on their web site and now they are even here on this forum. If you are not a fan, so be it but live and let live...

If you paid $300 for a 75c lipo and it only performed as a ~30c lipo, you'd be upset wouldnt you, whether you won the race or not? You could have spent 1/3 of the money on a true 25-30c lipo and still won the race = value for money & getting what you paid for, thats the thing we're talking about here. You can win races with batts that are much cheaper and hold true to their ratings, there is no need for exaggerated claims of discharge capability since it only misleads & impresses the unknowing ( over head is nice but few 1/8 applications require more than about a 40-50c lipo, Nick case not withstanding ). If MA werent so obsessed with crazy-high ratings & advertising everywhere possible, their prices could come down & their warrenty could be improved ( actually replace a bad pack, not offer a discount on a new one.. ) whilst still maintaining a healthy profit margin- word of mouth is a powerful marketing & advertising tool, but it is currently working against MA, too many bad feelings from disappointed owners and too many people fed up with the extortionate prices; if they could justify charging more than the real premium brands then fair enough, but at present I see only a poor graph and false ratings listed on their site...

[lincpimp]

Originally Posted by brandonwilcox

I have a video of our maxamps.com batteries starting dragsters with 1000+ HP engines. So I think you will be impressed with their performance.

Toyota and honda make cars that can power themselves for miles using only a crap load of 18650 lithiums which can barely handle 1c... I could start a dragster off AA batteries with enough of them. You can hand crank most motors too... Blown drag cars run 9:1 compression or so, I could likely trun them over by pulling down on the blower drive belt.

Plus most rc car guys on this forum like to use our lipos for running our rc cars. So some sort of "stunt spectacle" vid you have will not really be needed or enjoyed.

An eagle tree or similar graph with a very high sample rate (milliseconds) would be nice. Apply the 150c load on it momentarily and repeat. See how the battery does. Do this at the tabs, no need for the pesky 12 gaugewire to get in the way of a real test.

I would also like to see the 70c cont graphed. 50 amps cont is a lot of pull, but we are not the boat forum here.. We do spike alot of current, especially the rc drag guys.

Keep the info coming, just skip the shock and awe stuff, better to save that for the traxxas forum and the flux owners.

[whitrzac]

Originally Posted by lincpimp

Toyota and honda make cars that can power themselves for miles using only a crap load of 18650 lithiums which can barely handle 1c... I could start a dragster off AA batteries with enough of them. You can hand crank most motors too... Blown drag cars run 9:1 compression or so, I could likely trun them over by pulling down on the blower drive belt.

Plus most rc car guys on this forum like to use our lipos for running our rc cars. So some sort of "stunt spectacle" vid you have will not really be needed or enjoyed.

An eagle tree or similar graph with a very high sample rate (milliseconds) would be nice. Apply the 150c load on it momentarily and repeat. See how the battery does. Do this at the tabs, no need for the pesky 12 gaugewire to get in the way of a real test.

I would also like to see the 70c cont graphed. 50 amps cont is a lot of pull, but we are not the boat forum here.. We do spike alot of current, especially the rc drag guys.

Keep the info coming, just skip the shock and awe stuff, better to save that for the traxxas forum and the flux owners.

well put


has anyone looked at MA's prices recently?? there getting close to the average price for a "race" lipo...

[JERRY2KONE]

The bottom line here is that MaxAmps is boasting a "race ready LiPo pack that can handle a "true 150C discharge". Your words not ours. What that means in real terms is that this battery should be able to hold 150C discharge for at least 5 or 10 seconds at a time without having its voltage drop below 3.2volts or the battery pack heat up and explode, correct? Just because you see a milisecond spike even close to that amp draw does not qulaify any battery source to claim a 150C rating. If your add states that it will handle 150C spike/1 second bursts, than you will have stated the truth if in fact it can actually do this, which we still have not seen.

"C" ratings are based on a batteries ability to hold its nominal voltage (3.2v) without drooping under load=150c for a specified amount of time (lets say 10 seconds) or continuous load without melting. Please show us that your "Race Ready LiPo battery" can stand up to your claims. Otherwise it is just a bunch of hogwash or false advertising on your part.

[BrianG]

Wow, tough crowd in here. I'm just as skeptical about 70C continuous as the next guy, but I think we all need to calm down a tad. Let him post more of the graphs/data and then we can let the comments fly (but still keep them based on observations derived from facts, and no bashing).

About the graph: to me, it looks like an acceptable graph for a ~20C rated pack judging by the voltage drop vs current and usable capacity (no data on temperature but I'm sure that's coming in due time). Of course, internal resistance is not exactly linear with load so that's just an objective opinion. I sincerely hope that the claims are valid simply for the sake of liability, but then again, what setup can pull anything resembling 300A+ continuously?

@Electric Dave: You are right, graphs aren't representative of a running vehicle, but they do show the relative performance between various cells if testing is executed in a similar fashion.

[Thomasis]

Wow,

I'm suprised this thread has had so much attention lately. I know you guys are waiting for "charts and graphs" but I do agree somewhat that the battery needs to speak for itself in real time real world testing also. I realize that the true 150c rating might be a little over the top but think about this in a real world application.

1. Have you guys stopped to think about what a 1 sec burst of 150c will do to your truck/car? It's gonna tear the shiatz out of your parts, your going to wheely out of control no matter how fast or slow your going. I think most people in hear that know brushless understand what I'm trying to say. Even with a flux 5t conversion, (just an example), your not going to put that power to the ground with any positive results.

2. If MA were catering to the "knowledgable" brushless guru's out there they would market this battery as such. Reliable, stable, continous power ratings, cool temps etc... I don't think that is their nitch, they cater to the "new" brushless customer, the occasional weekend basher. Im not saying they don't want us as customers, I only pointing out that most of us here buy other brands out of experience, not an impulse buy. MA is an impulse buy in my honest opinion.

3. Lets see what real world testing shows up. These might be a higher quality cell and if so other more reliable brands will surely be to follow.

Will I ever buy a MA battery again, no. I lost my faith a while back with this company and I'm willing to bet no matter what the "charts and graphs" say, most of you guys bashing in here will never buy a MA battery again either. So lets give MA a shot to prove there batteries. Maybe there are some guys in here that are interested in these batteries and if so, they will be the true test. Let's be patient, I'm looking forward to the results myself only because it wil be a sign of what's to come for the future of lipos.

I'm not knocking anyone but lets try to keep an open mind.

[lincpimp]

I would like to say that I think Mr Wilcox has represented MA very well in this thread. We are a tough crowd, and he appears to be taking our heavy criticism as constructive. Big step up from when Jason was here and he took everything personally... Good job Brandon, keep the info coming.

[snellemin]

Originally Posted by lincpimp

I would like to say that I think Mr Wilcox has represented MA very well in this thread. We are a tough crowd, and he appears to be taking our heavy criticism as constructive. Big step up from when Jason was here and he took everything personally... Good job Brandon, keep the info coming.

+1

He is keeping his cool.

[moneybagsfor-rc]

+1

Wilcox, does this mean that your other packs labeled as "True 60C" or "True 30C" mean that they are rated for 60C for one second and 30C for one second respectively?

If Maxamps is using their C rating consistently as their "1 second burst" rating, that is okay. But the word "true" is such a messy word that it really should be dropped from their marketing strategy.

Electric Dave and Thomasis
The only legitimate alternative to a graph would be to purchase ~30 different battery packs and construct a confidence interval over the results holding all other conditions constant, such as temperature, driving conditions, motor/esc, wiring, setup, vehicle. Saying that "my pack runs great!" is only worth it's weight in words and has a sample size of 1, which doesn't tell us anything really. The only substitute for intrinsic evidence (ie a graph) is empirical evidence - so start buying your batteries and let's get those results!

You do drive graphs. And an Eagle Tree logs them.

Originally Posted by moneybagsfor-rc

+1

Wilcox, does this mean that your other packs labeled as "True 60C" or "True 30C" mean that they are rated for 60C for one second and 30C for one second respectively?

No. The 150C packs are labeled differently from the other packs as they are new cells. I have to go in and update the other pack ratings on the older packs as some of them are continuous ratings and some of them are burst ratings. This should be completed over the next couple days. All the information will be posted on the LiPo care page probably by Thursday.

Thanks,

Brandon

[nitrostarter]

Originally Posted by brandonwilcox

This is number 2 on my list of things to do this week. As far as working with other manufacturers and rating the batteries as in industry, we tried that with surge watt ratings. People didn't want to play ball seeing as they want to market a C rating. Since that is the case, we are going to post on the website exactly how we rate our packs and all the information we have regarding our C ratings.

Why not put this information on the Lipo themselves as well? This makes more sense to me if you still want to be able to compare them to the rest of the market. Would this cause too many problems and confusion with the marketing setups?

Originally Posted by brandonwilcox

No. The 150C packs are labeled differently from the other packs as they are new cells. I have to go in and update the other pack ratings on the older packs as some of them are continuous ratings and some of them are burst ratings. This should be completed over the next couple days. All the information will be posted on the LiPo care page probably by Thursday.

Thanks,

Brandon

That right there is my issue with MA's rating system. Even they don't know which cells are being advertised at continuous, burst, and surge ratings. At least the rest of the market is on the same playing field for advertisement and labeling. I know this is the main reason for the lipo's being marketed at their "True" or Surge rating. Hell, if I didn't know better I'd buy the pack that's advertised at 150C versus one at 30C.


Brandon, don't take this post offensively as well. I'm merely making suggestions which would help equivocate the market as well as the consumer.

Originally Posted by nitrostarter

Brandon, don't take this post offensively as well. I'm merely making suggestions which would help equivocate the market as well as the consumer.

Not at all. We welcome any input or ideas. I have a list of all the cell ratings, it's just something that I have to update on the site across the board for all the packs. Like I stated earlier, the marketing material for the Race Edition packs was not ready to go but I wanted to get them out for iHobby and to make it in the magazines. We will be updating all the packs on the site to show the True C ratings for every pack. We will also be taking some time to graph the packs at 60 and 120 amps continious. (I understand this is more important for plane guys but we want to have as much information as possible).

I will also be getting some more strenuous tests for you guys. We realize the burst rating is what matters in cars, and we have provided Mike and a number of other testers some packs to put to the test. The bottom line is maxamps.com wants to make the best pack. If the test results are less then great we are always on the hunt for a better cell. So far our in-house testing and outside testers have reported great results with our packs so as I get that information and results I will post up more and more.

Cheers

Brandon

[moneybagsfor-rc]

That's good, and a lot of work for you! But it will be well worth it to have a consistent nomenclature, mitigating future skepticism. (Most of us thought true 150c meant 150c continuous, given that true 60c and true 30c implies 60c and 30c continuous)

And wouldn't you agree that "true" is such a sticky word to work with? I mean, think of how exhaustive your evidence will be in order to prove "truth?" What if diamond carriers used "true" to describe their karat ratings? It seems like the word "true" has caused a barrel of monkeys that is just impossible to contain.

[moneybagsfor-rc]

A legitimate 75C continuous battery pack would be my next purchase.