Off-road Racing

[Batfish]

Originally posted by C.H.U.D.
Here's a follow up question.

If mains for MT's, 1/8 buggies, 1/8 trucks (aka truggies), and 1/10 trucks were 10 minutes would there be more electric people showing up to race in mixed classes of electric and nitro in the aforementioned categories? Or would the nitro folk completely reject balls to the wall racing preferring 30/45/60 minute mains?


thx

Probably the biggest reason you don't see electric races over 5 minutes is that brushed racing motors are typically designed and geared to run for 5-6 minutes and come out darn hot. Pushing those motors to 10 minutes would definitely mean more burned out motors and lots more motor maintenance.
Considering probably 99% of all racers still use brushed motors, I believe this is the biggest hang-up for moving to longer electric mains.
If we could just get brushless into ROAR with less restrictions we'd easily make 10 minute mains with an appropriately geared brushless system on 3300 cells.
The day that Lipo and brushless come together and join the ROAR rules will be the beginning of merging electrics and nitros in all races. I'm hoping that happens in the next couple years, and it's the next racing milestone I look forward to.
:)

Originally posted by Batfish
Probably the biggest reason you don't see electric races over 5 minutes is that brushed racing motors are typically designed and geared to run for 5-6 minutes and come out darn hot. Pushing those motors to 10 minutes would definitely mean more burned out motors and lots more motor maintenance.
Considering probably 99% of all racers still use brushed motors, I believe this is the biggest hang-up for moving to longer electric mains.
If we could just get brushless into ROAR with less restrictions we'd easily make 10 minute mains with an appropriately geared brushless system on 3300 cells.
The day that Lipo and brushless come together and join the ROAR rules will be the beginning of merging electrics and nitros in all races. I'm hoping that happens in the next couple years, and it's the next racing milestone I look forward to.
:)

Good points, Batty.

What are your thoughts on a new and less restrictive organization (a full featured system beyond just racing, btw) geared toward being more inclusive to racers w/ 10 minute mains (all out racing, no marathons) running mixed gas/electric? There would be little to no restrictions on motor used (gas or electric) and power source (there would of course be some safety regulations).

There are naturally many other variables I've considered but are beyond the scope of this discussion.

I'm also sellin' my elctric and going gas to get a better feel for nitro racing. I've read about some of these 1/8 buggy "endurance" events and want to understand the appeal of driving for 30/45/60 minute (sometimes multiple hour) races. Ok...and I also wanna build a kick a$$ 1/8 truck (aka truggy) to compete w/ the local pro's, for now. ;-)

I'm cookin' up a national system I think would rock, but I need to perform an informal market survey on various aspects of racing and see what people enjoy and things they would like to see in the future. :-D

Thanks for all the responses.

Aw Chuck, why abandon electric, why man, why?!?! ;)


Whaddya think you'll get as a racer? There's always the Hot Bodies LSP, sucker DOMINATES at Hot Rod's, don't know about SV though.

Originally posted by nbcaznmaster
electric is more expensive, it has a higher upfrotn cost. Not many peole are willing to get into it.

Originally posted by crazyjr
That is a misconception NBCAZN. Out of the box the nitro is a lot faster, but if you look at total cost on upgrades and have similar budgetsyou can get more bang for the buck with an electric than nitro. I raced a AE rc10t3 against both electric and nitro and had great successwith less money than at least 3/4 of the nitro people.

Ultimately the cost of electric or gas is very similar but I believe electric *is* a little more expensive in the beginning. Over the long haul recharging batteries is slightly less expensive.

1 gallon (=3800 cc's?) of nitro is approximately $100US. Roughly 10 minutes of runtime is 150cc's. So, you get (approx.) 25 runs w/ 1 gallon.

promatch gp3300's are $100 for 14 cells. I'm not sure how many times I'll be able to run my gp's, but I'm pretty certain its more than 25 times. Also gotta factor in the one time cost of charger(s), the cost of chargers vary significantly so I'll just pick an AstroFlight 110D. $120 for charger and $60 for power supply (averaging power supply cost). You're looking at $280 for your electric "fuel" upfront.

We'll use 100 runs to compare the cost. Nitro is $400 in fuel costs electric is $280 (assuming you can get 100 runs out of a single set of batteries).

I didn't factor in motor wear and tear. I think a nitro engine will need a rebuild before 100 runs (don't quote me) whereas a brushless theoretically shouldn't need anything (should it?).

Finally each has its own set of pro's and con's, but these factors shouldn't influence the TCO.

Overall I believe we may conclude the cost of operating either nitro or electric are very similar.

I would love to eventuall see electric off-road racing blossom w/ manufacturers creating kits or RTR w/ brushless and/or NiMH/LiPo options.

Originally posted by dabid
Aw Chuck, why abandon electric, why man, why?!?! ;)

:-P

Not abandoning it. Just seeing what its like to be a gashead. I can see some of the draw in the smell of nitro and the sounds...did I mention the smell? mmmm.

Eventually I'll probably run both electric and gas racers.

Whaddya think you'll get as a racer? There's always the Hot Bodies LSP, sucker DOMINATES at Hot Rod's, don't know about SV though. [/B]

After running a brushless Maxx at a 99.9% gas track I'm still inclined to be the oddball that doesn't run a mugen/jammin/HB truck. I'm looking at an XTM "vehicle" I believe will fit into the rcproseries rules and will be competitive and entertaining to drive. I consider SV more my home track than Hot Rod's.

Hot Rod's is really a 1/10 truck track. Its narrow and small. My Maxx was entirely too big and fast to run there...lets just say the front and rear diffs don't care for that much on/off acceleration. ;-) Ok, so a center diff or nice slipper clutch would help in a big way...

[crazyjr]

Hey Chud. Here's an idea. At some races here in the south(mostly N/S carolina but i'm going to try and get some action here in GA.) they have a class called Pro-truck, it is a combined class with electric and nitro with 20 minute heats. most electrics are brushless and 2s lipo and the nitro trucks usually run larger tanks. From what i hear in other forums. The brushless are getting a stranglehold and some hardcore nitro guys are converting to brushless.

Originally posted by crazyjr
Hey Chud. Here's an idea. At some races here in the south(mostly N/S carolina but i'm going to try and get some action here in GA.) they have a class called Pro-truck, it is a combined class with electric and nitro with 20 minute heats. most electrics are brushless and 2s lipo and the nitro trucks usually run larger tanks.

That's cool. I think 20 minutes is doable for LiPo users, but still a bit out of reach for NiMh which I would consider the mainstream battery type for the next few years until the LiPo prices come down and people in general become more comfortable w/ their use. In a less restricted organization I believe these technologies (and new ones) will flourish.

My philosophy is that less restrictions are better, just keep it safe and ensure vehicles competing against one another are dimensionally correct.

Originally posted by crazyjr From what i hear in other forums. The brushless are getting a stranglehold and some hardcore nitro guys are converting to brushless.

Ha! That's good for the electric business.


What are some of your thoughts on the monster truck class having trucks that still resemble MT's by their ride height and bodies? I know a lot of you like the truggy look (stadium truck body, low ride height, and a 1/8th wing but I believe that "look" is what in my mind is the 1/8 truck class (like the 1/10 truck class, only bigger)). IMHO MT's should have 3.5" clearance (1/10) and 4.0" clearance (1/8) and run a transmission (no center diffs, multi speed is ok), a truck/suv body (sorry, no stadium bodies), and no wing! The ride height btw is my guess at what makes sense for the scale...its still subject to review.

This would be extremely easy to tech at the club level and would keep MT's as monster trucks w/ all those fun MT behaviors on a track.

Anyhoo, don't wanna give too much away as I'm still formulating things above and beyond ride height. ;-)

Lemme know what you think!

Originally posted by MacII
My local track (Xtreme RC, New Milford, CT) is very Brushless friendly. When all 5 of us (with BL-E's) show they often break us into our own class, otherwise we run with Nitro and the main is only 5 mins.

Oddly I only run my truck at the track, aside for some quick testing, I've never driven it around my house. My Dogs HATE the E-Maxx and make home driving unpleasant.

Ooops, missed your post MAC, sorry.

I'm not sure out of how many total MT's you had (or the averages) but would you prefer to have 5 brushless in one class and 10 nitro in their own class or 15 trucks total in one class competing w/ one another (2 qualifiers and 1 or 2 mains)?

I've asked around elsewhere about how they (race directors) determine how many minutes the mains will be and the "formula" used to come up w/ the number...but there doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule for the number of entrants and how that translates into classes and main runlengths.

[crazyjr]

Originally posted by C.H.U.D.
That's cool. I think 20 minutes is doable for LiPo users, but still a bit out of reach for NiMh which I would consider the mainstream battery type for the next few years until the LiPo prices come down and people in general become more comfortable w/ their use. In a less restricted organization I believe these technologies (and new ones) will flourish.

My philosophy is that less restrictions are better, just keep it safe and ensure vehicles competing against one another are dimensionally correct.




Ha! That's good for the electric business.


What are some of your thoughts on the monster truck class having trucks that still resemble MT's by their ride height and bodies? I know a lot of you like the truggy look (stadium truck body, low ride height, and a 1/8th wing but I believe that "look" is what in my mind is the 1/8 truck class (like the 1/10 truck class, only bigger)). IMHO MT's should have 3.5" clearance (1/10) and 4.0" clearance (1/8) and run a transmission (no center diffs, multi speed is ok), a truck/suv body (sorry, no stadium bodies), and no wing! The ride height btw is my guess at what makes sense for the scale...its still subject to review.

This would be extremely easy to tech at the club level and would keep MT's as monster trucks w/ all those fun MT behaviors on a track.

Anyhoo, don't wanna give too much away as I'm still formulating things above and beyond ride height. ;-)

Lemme know what you think!

I think MT's are MT's and truggies are modern stadium trucks. Remember when people converted 1/10 buggies to trucks, thats what is happening right now and they need their own class so they can progressand evolve.
The current crop of MT's should have seperate classes for sm block and b block, because you have a problem with $600 on road motors running with a TRX 2.5 and thats not fair.


To answer the question you proposed to MacII. I would want to race against the nitro's anytime, anywhere and anyplace

[Batfish]

I think any organization needs restrictions, but I'm all for a less-restrictive option as well. First off, let me say that I'm not a ROAR member, nor have I participated in any "sanctioned" events.
That said, I am an avid racer (the only bashing I've done in the past year is to test project vehicles and parts replacements) and would definitely like to join a national organization that actually allowed the vehicles and electronics I prefer to run.
I think if ROAR would have an "unlimited" option for each class, keep the physical requirements, and make electronics/powerplant un-restricted that would go a long way towards making the official R/C racing world friendlier to the types of things we do here.
I'd have to say that close to 90% or more of the projects people work on here would not fit into an official ROAR class. We're pretty die-hard R/C fans here...it's a shame that the major sanctioning body for R/C doesn't officially "recognize" us.
These are the types of things I'd like to see change/adapt to the technologies as they progress.

I've got a thousand ideas on how to create a new organization, but it would take a HUGE amount of racer buy-in to make it a viable option to get started, unless it was strictly a local/regional organization.

Originally posted by Batfish
I think any organization needs restrictions, but I'm all for a less-restrictive option as well. First off, let me say that I'm not a ROAR member, nor have I participated in any "sanctioned" events.
That said, I am an avid racer (the only bashing I've done in the past year is to test project vehicles and parts replacements) and would definitely like to join a national organization that actually allowed the vehicles and electronics I prefer to run.
I think if ROAR would have an "unlimited" option for each class, keep the physical requirements, and make electronics/powerplant un-restricted that would go a long way towards making the official R/C racing world friendlier to the types of things we do here.
I'd have to say that close to 90% or more of the projects people work on here would not fit into an official ROAR class. We're pretty die-hard R/C fans here...it's a shame that the major sanctioning body for R/C doesn't officially "recognize" us.
These are the types of things I'd like to see change/adapt to the technologies as they progress.

I've got a thousand ideas on how to create a new organization,

agree agree agree. My mindset is to be more inclusive, I think my "product" would please your palate. The biggest uphill battle I face are the gasheads that really enjoy the long mains and pitting (which *does* have its entertainment value).

Originally posted by Batfish
but it would take a HUGE amount of racer buy-in to make it a viable option to get started, unless it was strictly a local/regional organization.

Workin' on it. ;-)

I'm doin' a little fishin' here and there. Talkin' to track owners and organizers is part of the deal.

Valuable input, thx.

XTM stuff, eh? I'm working at Hobby People for the holiday season, stop by if you need anything. :)

Originally posted by dabid
XTM stuff, eh? I'm working at Hobby People for the holiday season, stop by if you need anything. :)

Suhweet. I'm there, new best buddy ever. :Love:



:W:




Eh, sorry. Yeah, if you can hook a brother up that'd be, uh, way dope.

Hey, doesn't matter, I just don't know if I can do the employee discount thing for you. Still, haven't seen you in a while, and it'd be cool to see a fellow RC Monster addict and bounce BL lingo off you, most of the guys there don't know much more than "Uh, me think Novak make brushless" kinda stuff.

So you gonna hold onto that 110D for your kid "what's his name" or move on with that too? ;)

[Batfish]

If you're looking for more input off-line, feel free to PM or email me. If/when you're looking for east-coast representation, feel free to look me up then, too.