Off-topic: Something for home defense?

[x-y]

Had to remove this link as it was wayyyy NSFW.

-BrianG

[TexasSP]

Proper education is the key and you don't have to leave the gun laying next to the bed to be effective. Your kids know not to touch the hot stove or play with knives. The idea and end result is the same, education and safety. I grew up with guns in my house as a child and knew where they were. I also knew not to touch them and why. My kids are taught the same. In fact if my 5 year old happens to see my gun and I am not right there he immediately comes and tells me.

Having kids is just not a good argument for not having protection.

The other side of the coin is that you can't always control every aspect of where your kids will be and what they will find at someone else's house. It's not like you do a full interview with all your kid's friends' parents to see if they own guns. Better your kids know and understand than to come up on it naively. Kids who are never around and have not been educated about guns are far more likely to be curious when the see one somewhere. Knowing only what they see on TV they will not take the magnitude of handling one as seriously as a kid who grows up around them and is properly educated.

The actual statistics of children being injured or killed by guns in peoples homes is very small. Be careful when looking through statistics because they do not accurately differentiate street violence gun deaths from accidental deaths in homes. Many activists try to falsely make it seem as though the deaths are happening by accident while in reality they are not.

[brainanator]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

Your kids know not to touch the hot stove or play with knives. The idea and end result is the same, education and safety.

And I distinctly remember touching the stove once, hurt like hell, wouldn't recommend anyone do it. I also have fond memories of accidentally running a finger along a blade when I was really little, now I'm very careful.
And I know I was told not to touch the stove sometime before I did it. Maybe that was why I wanted to do it, because I was told not to. Just sayin.....kids don't always listen to parents.

[Finnster]

Originally Posted by brainanator

And I distinctly remember touching the stove once, hurt like hell, wouldn't recommend anyone do it. I also have fond memories of accidentally running a finger along a blade when I was really little, now I'm very careful.
And I know I was told not to touch the stove sometime before I did it. Maybe that was why I wanted to do it, because I was told not to. Just sayin.....kids don't always listen to parents.

Thats where I'm coming from. I grew up in a big hunting family and was around guns from a fairly early age. Had a BB gun when I was 5-6, went bird and deer hunting w/ my (older) cousins quite a few times. Had my own shotgun and deer rifle, and shot plenty of birds w/ the shotty. Did hunter's safety and the whole lot, and always being drilled by my cousins about proper gun safety. Been to the range a quite a few times too. Not a gun nut, but not a newb either.

Being said, if my parents said not to do it, it was usually an invitation to do it. Had plenty of friends who had guns in the home and a family far less careful than mine. Kids love to show off when parents are not around, and we always knew where things were hidden or how to get into safes or other things our parents had no clue about. Everyone was smart enough not to point them at anyone or go around pulling the triggers, but we did enough stupid things that I can look back on it now and think, "man, we were a bunch of little dumbasses..." We didn't get the guns out other than a couple times, but we certainly set fire to, shot, burnt, blew up, broke in to, or stole the keys to plenty of stuff we should have never touched in the first place.

With the murderer on the loose yesterday as an example, I would have felt ~10% safer if I had the shotgun at home. And that was in a situation that was: in the daytime, known person and armaments outside, and already photo ID'd by news reports, and with the police in the area for quick backup. Basically had as good as intel and advantage as I was ever likely to get.

What was the counter-worry was, where would the guy come in, would he just start shooting or try to take hostages? Would I be able to attack him in time, and if my attack failed, would he attack my family in revenge or to "eliminate witnesses." Where do I keep my kids that would be safe from stray bullets? What If I thought someone was coming in, but what if it was just my mother-in-law coming over to check in and couldn't call first bc the phones were down? The guy was in the military and far better trained, so the only chance I'd have would be surprize, so gotta be the first to shoot.

Would I actually want to pull the trigger on something I'm not 100% about? Two of the big rules for hunting was know your target before you shoot, and never point the gun at something you didn't intend on killing. Any of the times we were out hunting, when you did see something and went to shoot, nerves get all jumpy, your heart starts pounding and it always took quite a bit of effort and experience to be able to calm yourself and act with control (and get off a decently aimed shot.) And that was just shooting at birds, in the daytime, in the middle of nowhere and the birds dont shoot back or sue your ass if you just wound them.

Contrast that to a possible break-in. Maybe a noise downstairs in the middle of the night. Maybe even the daytime when you're not expecting it. Do you really carry around a loaded gun everytime something goes bump? Are you ready to pull the trigger on some noisy shadow, or to do wait to turn on all the lights and yell and look at the person before you pump off rounds (and give yourself away)?

Honestly, what made me feel the safest was knowing all the doors were secure and I had dogs with me. I think I'd rather have a couple of baddass dogs and a bat than my shotty. Let them figure wtf it was and attack and I'll just club the mf'er as they are bitting him. Does make me consider the security of a couple of the doors and windows we have tho.

Not trying to push any particular policy or course of action. Just convey a particular real-life experience. I totally understand why someone would want a gun for self-defense. I'm just saying it not cut and dry, or as obvious as having a good lock on the door. Guns will escalate the situation to lethal levels and its not guaranteed to go your way, and not all situations are sneaking downstairs to catch a crackhead with your TV in his hands and you get the chance to blow him away before he can act, and the police come over, offer thier congrats and everyone just goes back to life as normal and there are no reprocussions after. Choose carefully.

[BrianG]

I agree with both you guys TBH; let experience be a lesson. However, a lesson involving a gun has much more potential to be lethal than any of those examples (although a knife can be close).

[brainanator]

I'm right there with ya, I wish kids could be reliably taught that guns are unsafe. But kids are kids...They don't have the thinking capacity yet to comprehend dangerous things unless they remember it hurting or being unpleasant. I know when I have kids all the firearms will be in a safe, the very least they will have breach locks on them.

That's one thing you could get, a breach lock for the shotgun, keep it loaded, and have the key in a good spot close. You could have the lock off quickly and you'd just have to close the breach to get a shell in the chamber. Still slightly cumbersome...but better than having a loaded gun laying around.

[bruce750i]

The Segia-12 is mag fed shotgun based on the AK's action if you want a 12ga. semi with a detachable magazine also.

[E-Revonut]

Get the shotgun and hang it high on the wall where you can just barely reach it and don't keep anything around for the kids to use as a step stool to get to it. However if you do get a gun I recomend teaching your kids about it and taking them with you to a range to shoot it. Although they may be far to young to actualy learn to use it and fire it let them see how loud it is and how much damage it can do. Growing up there where guns in my house and my brother and I both left them alone. There was no gunsafe until I was old enough to start my own collection and then my step mom thought that a safe would be a good idea for so many guns. I had a key to it though. First step to gun safety is gun education

[PBO]

Just to apply some objective thinking...

Seems that actual incidents where anyones home(s) have actually been 'invaded' are still quite rare (or only a few bothered to respond to my question) & nobody has used a gun to repel an intruder either. Therefore it would make sense that a gun (or multiples of) is only required in a very small number of examples...?Personally, gun storage is a profound concern for me. I remember being a kid pretty well...I remember that I knew every combination, lock & method of getting into everything my family owned. I remember removing window panes or picking locks to see presents before they were given (& to act surprised when they were given) to me. I remember feeling like nothing was out of reach....considering this, I can confidently say that if we had a gun in our house, it could have been locked to a cloud or rainbow & I would have provided myself access to it within one day tops

Not that I have any right to dictate how anyone should handle their personal responsibilities but I'd be concerned about a gun in my house, more so with kids - my kids especially....my 6yr old son hacked an internet account & bought himself about $500 worth of games a few weeks ago. In my view, the probability of someone being hurt by 'my' gun is higher than the chance of using for its intended purpose

Also, a family friend arrived at his secluded country property to find it being robbed...he went to his shed & grabbed a rifle & bailed up the intruders next to the van they were filling up. He didn't realise that while he had two under gun point, a third who was inside saw what was happening, circled around behind our friend & blew his head of at the neck from behind...the police think there was three intruders because there were two silhouettes in the blood spatter + one to pull the trigger. He may have had a different result if he hadn't of 'set the pace' by using his gun first??

[10kman]

Wow this was a great thread, glad I hopped on to do some reading.

I never saw a huge advantage of buying a really high quality shotgun (those ones costing over a grand), a shotgun does some serious damage at close range, doesn't seem to matter about quality. But, if you get a really cheap one, it may not be reliable, and since you are looking at home defense, you need that more than anything (why many people use revolvers for home defense, not much can go wrong with them). The models in this thread are good choices.

My dad had a shotgun in the house when I grew up, for some reason, that was something he told us NOT TO TOUCH, and we never touched it, and mind you, it wasn't locked up. He didn't keep shells in it, and even knowing that, we never touched it.

As I got older, I realized that it seemed silly to not keep the shells near the gun, or IN the gun, and I asked him why, and he said he worried about one of us touching it and having an accident. So, this while keeping us safe, would be useless if someone was in the home trying to harm us. Unless he had time to get to the shells, fumble around with them, load the gun, pump, shoot, etc.

So then you are left with a handgun as an option. I have a pistol still, I used to have two when I shot a lot with my dad. I kept one just to keep in the house, and to go shooting every now and again. Handguns are easier to hide if you have kids in the house, and you can even go as far as to keep the magazine full of rounds, but don't chamber it, so there's one more element of safety for a child that could get his hands on it (tough to figure out, tough to chamber a round).

There are handgun bullets that are mini-shotgun shells. They don't penetrate as deeply and are good for that close-up kind of defense shooting, you don't have to worry about blowing a hole through the wall and hitting someone two rooms down the hall.

Quick Google search - http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/64455-5.html. They aren't as great as a hollowpoint for a total stop, but do scatter to help you hit your target.

Like others have said, absolutely practice with whatever you choose to go with. Being in a bad situation is a lot different than plinking at cans out in a field.

And also as noted through the thread, the law seems to help protect criminals anymore. I've heard that not keeping your gun locked in a safe will be touted as "Aggressive" or "Gun Nut" in a court, almost like you were waiting to take a shot on someone's life. I'm not sure if there's any truth to it, I never looked into it, but I could see something like that being done in an attempt to make someone else seem innocent. But then again, it's your home, you can defend it within reason. Killing someone that is about to run out the door isn't within reason obviously, your life isn't in immediate danger.

There's something really intimidating about hearing a shotgun being loaded, so I vote shotgun and keeping it up high away from the kids. Stress to stay away, etc. I also vote to get a dog if you don't have one, they are great alarm companies and can buy you time.

Also of note - i don't have kids in my house, so am just relaying an opinion.

10k

Originally Posted by BrianG

I've been looking for some kind of weapon for home defense. First, I was going to get a handgun, but after reading a bit about this topic, many people prefer a shorter shotgun instead. Makes sense really; not as much potential for overpenetration, ammo is pretty cheap, gun is pretty simple/basic and relatively inexpensive.

So, my question is; out of all the shotguns out there, does anyone have any personal experience? Off the top of my head, I'd want a shorter shotgun for some maneuverability, able to hold as many shells as possible, be reliable, and inexpensive. Any thoughts?

Mossberg Perseuader is what I have at home:

[TexasSP]

I can also come up with stories of people who saved lives. It's an imperfect world, however I want to at least give myself the chance versus sitting there thinking "only if I had a gun".

Just because something is rare doesn't mean I won't protect myself against it. I also think people should spend less time worrying about how others choose to live when it affects them in no way what so ever.

For the record, bear attacks are very rare. However, my group of friends and family who fish in Alaska still carry protection against bear attacks.

If someone breaks into my house tying them up won't be an issue because I have no intention of tying up corpses.

As far as kids, everyone I knew growing up and my whole family had guns. There was never a single incident of anyone I knew getting into them because our parents had properly educated us. I was a naturally curious and mischievous kid and still never got into anyone's guns. Some of you act like your kids go around sticking their fingers into light sockets and dancing on the hot stove top. I touched the stove because I was taught it was hot, I didn't play with knives because I knew they would cut you, I didn't ride my bike into the street because I knew a car could hit and kill me. In fact, if you look at numbers many more people are killed accidentally this way than by guns in the house.

If you don't think you can properly educate and exercise your authority over your children then by all means don't have guns in your house. However, don't try to exercise your will on those of us who do.

Well said TexasSP; also, it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it ;-) As a kid as was dropped off and left at a hunter's safety class to learn more about guns than my parents had taught me because kids tend to listen to people with cool uniforms and badges better.

[PBO]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

If you don't think you can properly educate and exercise your authority over your children then by all means don't have guns in your house. However, don't try to exercise your will on those of us who do.

Are you kidding? this a public forum where we discuss 'issues'. What's wrong an opinion that's different to yours?

Originally Posted by PBO

Are you kidding? this a public forum where we discuss 'issues'. What's wrong an opinion that's different to yours?

I don't think he meant it as an insult PBO, it's just that in this country we have been fighting people that think they can enforce there opinions over us simply because we disagree, and they use the "for the children" line over and over again when the solution to that problem is simply education. Of course nobody in this country wants to hear the simple answer because it means one of them doesn't have an excuse to get paid now. IMO I don't care if someone is for or against guns like you,it's totally fine with me as long as you respect mine as well,which you have done and I respect that.