KM Baja VS HPI 5B - Page 2 - RC-Monster Forums

TexasSP · 05.14.2009, 05:20 PM

From what I understand the KM Baja is just one clone and not all clones are the KM. Either way HPI did nothing revolutionary with the design and as such they obviously don't have a patent on the product or else it wouldn't sell in the US. I also saw HPI Europe's response which I find silly because the clones obviously sell in Europe as well. My guess is that the clone is really the original and HPI contracted the chinese plant to make it and brand it for them. I am sure there were probably some changes and maybe a little stricter QC but that's about all I will give it.

pinkpanda3310 · 05.15.2009, 04:57 AM

Yes there are a number of clones which leads me to agree with TexasSP that there is one blue print for a car made by several companies. Just the running gear needs to be upgraded- electronics, tuned pipe, and possible weak pionts...etc.....

doo540 · 05.15.2009, 08:15 AM

"nothing revolutionary with the design" so that means its ok for any company to market and produce a product they really had no involvement in?

Let’s play out two different scenarios.

1. Hpi spent large amounts of money doing R&D on a 1/5 scale buggy that uses quality components that is durable and reliable, and sells like mad thru out the world, and then a Chinese company sees how well they are selling and decides to copy the HPI design but the only change is they use lower quality components to keep cost down and profits high.

OR

2. An unknown Chinese company (still unknown to this date) develops a 1/5 scale buggy that uses low quality components and brakes often. HPI takes notice of this very low selling, bad quality item and decides to market it with higher quality stuff.

Come on you guys, HPI designed the BAJA and they got ripped off by other companies. This happens every day in overseas companies that have no respect for copyright laws or patents.

Yes I have first hand knowledge of this, my company contacts Chinese companies to build stamping dies. The cost difference is amazing, but the quality of work is not so good. Many times the overseas companies will cut corners and not use the quality components the designs call fore, opting instead to use their own homemade items. Sometimes this is ok, other times it puts press operators lives in danger as some components have serious safety measures built into them. We as a company have to have a representative in the “outsourced” shops at all time to ensure that no “funny” business is going on.

The fact that people keep buying the counterfeit products just reinforces the Chinese companies that it is ok to conduct business in this manor.

Do you think Mike (the RCM owner, the guy we all support) would be happy to have Chinese companies copying his design’s and selling them of 10-15% the price of what he does? Don’t think it can happen? Let me tell you, with about 2 phone calls I could open a “internet shop” and sell all of his quality products that he spent time and money developing at 10-15% of his selling price. Mike would have to go out of business, because people would start saying, “man this motor mount kit from “stealers” is just as good as “RCM” but way cheaper.” Then people would justify it with I don’t have that much money to spend. Just save an extra week or two and buy the real deal, or even buy a used product.

As a side note, my company doesn’t like going overseas to have our dies built. The number one reason we went overseas is because the big automotive companies like Ford, Tower, Midway, Meridian, Defiance, just to name a few, said that if we didn’t have a Chinese plan they wouldn’t let us even quote jobs, even if we could build them here in the States for the same or close to the same price. The big players are looking at bottom dollar period and do not care how it will affect them in the long run, which I think is part of this whole global money problem we are facing right now. Of course it’s not just the car companies fault, I’m sure this same thing is happening in all lines of manufacturing.

TexasSP · 10:09 AM

The key thing you miss is that if HPI had a patent granted this wouldn't be an issue. Obviously they have no patent on the design or patent pending or else it would not be available for sale in the US.

Mike at RCM has patents or patents pending on designs that are of such a nature that they or innvocative, different, etc. Case in point is the Slipperential.

These companies have not legally wronged HPI in anyway. If they had be sure lawsuit would have issued and cease and desist orders issued.

If HPI went the route of picking a product another company made then having them improve it and put their name on it, that is nothing special. The should have had their lawyers sign exclusivety contracts for it.

Your argument holds no water. It doesn't take a chinese company to copy products which don't hold a patent. It has been done in the US for years. If someone in the US wanted to copy Mikes products that are not patented and/or copy righted in anyway, there is nothing to stop them. Mike obviously understands this as he has applied for the proper patents for items which he finds or innovative and different as such to necisitate a patent. Obviously some US companies have jumped on to what Mike is doing and now offer their own conversion kits which are very similar to what Mike sells.

Quote:

2. An unknown Chinese company (still unknown to this date) develops a 1/5 scale buggy that uses low quality components and brakes often. HPI takes notice of this very low selling, bad quality item and decides to market it with higher quality stuff.

So it would be okay for HPI to:

A) Take their design without paying for it, make some quality improvements, then rebadge and sell it under their name for twice the price or

B) Pay that company to use their design, improve the quality, market and sell it as an HPI product, not have any exclusivity agreement on the product but somehow expect they can't sell that product to someone else?

As for as I can tell, the only thing HPI has is a copyright to the name Baja 5B.

Another case in point is that Toyota did the full R&D and manufacturing of the Matrix. GM bought rights to the design, cheapened it in many areas to fit their needs, and pays Toyota to manufacture it for them. GM then rebadges the vehicle as a Pontiac Vibe and sells it in the same markets as the Matrix. Does Toyota somehow now not have any right to sell the Matrix anymore?

The Chinese are not all a bunch of evil people sitting in room figuring out ways to hurt the US and others. Most of them are struggling and hard workers that live in shacks most Americans wouldn't put their dogs in. They are a very intelligent and innovative group and they are struggling to make their lives better, just like most people in the US. Even degreed engineers in China make less than most people working at McDonald's. My former company has a plant in China, and I have seen the payroll.

So many Americans want to sit on the sidelines and point fingers at the Chinese and pretend they themselves had nothing to do with this. It's a global economy and the one constant we have is change. You can either roll with it and adapt or get passed by. Nothing any president, congressman, or anyone else does will change this.

doo540 · 05.15.2009, 10:19 AM

The chinese dont care about patents, the US patents mean nothing in China, the US goverment has no power in China at all in this area, the patents do keep American companies from stealing designs that is true. So what are you going to say when Integy starts selling the Slipperential? Do you think Mike will go after them?

How do we know that HPI doesn't have a patent on the BAJA? Granted it is a large scale buggy so maybe there is no patent on it, but for another company to reproduce the baja in such detail that HPI parts fit on it with no mods, doesn't seem to be to be very good business pratice to me.

I will support HPI and not the copy cat companies, HPI took the risk to invest money into the program, provide good customer support and therefore have earned the right to my business.

Arct1k · 05.15.2009, 10:21 AM

Yes I do expect mike to go after integy if they copy it...

Mike didn't spend all that money not to!

TexasSP · 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doo540

The chinese dont care about patents, the US patents mean nothing in China, the US goverment has no power in China at all in this area, the patents do keep American companies from stealing designs that is true. So what are you going to say when Integy starts selling the Slipperential? Do you think Mike will go after them?

How do we know that HPI doesn't have a patent on the BAJA? Granted it is a large scale buggy so maybe there is no patent on it, but for another company to reproduce the baja in such detail that HPI parts fit on it with no mods, doesn't seem to be to be very good business pratice to me.

I will support HPI and not the copy cat companies, HPI took the risk to invest money into the program, provide good customer support and therefore have earned the right to my business.

If HPI had a US or other Patent on the buggy it would not be sold in the US period! We are not talking about buggies being sold in China. Inside China they don't have to recognize patents, however if they export something to the US which holds a US or other recognized patent it cannot be sold within the US.

These things go much deeper than how you may "feel" about it. Like it or not it is what it is.

Mike has a patent pending on the slipperential (powerful but not the same as having the patent). It means he has filed the proper documentation and the patent is under review by the US Patent Office and will at some point in the near future be granted a full patent. If Integy tried copying the slipperential and selling it in the US Mike would have legal recourse. He would have his attorneys first file a "Cease and Desist Order" to integy and the case would proceed from there. Mike would easily win any lawsuit that could insue plus damages.

I would also be willing to bet that part of the reason it took so long for the slipperential release if because of Mike going through the necessary steps to file the patent.

http://www.rc-monster.com/proddetail...rential&cat=41 (see patent pending notation)

Also see this link directly from the US patent office for further information:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac...eneral/faq.htm

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac...ral/index.html

If HPI had such in the US for the baja you can be certain this would have already happened and no one would be purchasing the "clones" in the US or EU.

05.17.2009, 12:48 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-29cc-1-5-Sca...3A1%7C294%3A50 - That is the one i want.

Have we all seen the new updated KM? They updated some parts on it...

pinkpanda3310 · 05.17.2009, 09:02 AM

Quote:

The key thing you miss is that if HPI had a patent granted this wouldn't be an issue. Obviously they have no patent on the design or patent pending or else it would not be available for sale in the US.

Mike at RCM has patents or patents pending on designs that are of such a nature that they or innvocative, different, etc. Case in point is the Slipperential.

These companies have not legally wronged HPI in anyway. If they had be sure lawsuit would have issued and cease and desist orders issued.

If HPI went the route of picking a product another company made then having them improve it and put their name on it, that is nothing special. The should have had their lawyers sign exclusivety contracts for it.

I don't know the specific laws on US but I've heard in this country that patents only need to be changed buy 10% to classify. IF China even used such standards, it wouldn't take much to reproduce just about anything.

MetalMan · 05.17.2009, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkpanda3310

I don't know the specific laws on US but I've heard in this country that patents only need to be changed buy 10% to classify. IF China even used such standards, it wouldn't take much to reproduce just about anything.

Mike got a design patent on the Slipperential, though. He has a lot more protection than a typical patent can provide.

01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexasSP

From what I understand the KM Baja is just one clone and not all clones are the KM. Either way HPI did nothing revolutionary with the design and as such they obviously don't have a patent on the product or else it wouldn't sell in the US. I also saw HPI Europe's response which I find silly because the clones obviously sell in Europe as well. My guess is that the clone is really the original and HPI contracted the chinese plant to make it and brand it for them. I am sure there were probably some changes and maybe a little stricter QC but that's about all I will give it.

I couldn't find the patents for them but HPI has patents on the diff, shocks and the air cleaner. Yes the air cleaner.

They must file under something other then HPI Racing and Hobby Products International.

Off topic but it came up in my search Traxxas Revo

OldGuy · 11.08.2009, 11:30 AM

[QUOTE=Always Dreamin;287091] I think that if you know what you're doing, and can fix a couple minor errors, your good to go. Simply boiling the A-arms, tightening screws, and making sure everything is good to go.

AD, I just bought a new KM 23cc. Please elaborate on the "boiling the A Arms"

Any other suggestions? I don't know squat about R/C cars........The Baja is my first.

junkman · 12:12 PM

boiling the arms, just makes them less brittle. BTW, if you havn't read the post on the rcuniverse forum, check it out. Its about 75 pages dedicated just to these cars. The clones are a pretty touchy subject on the actual 5b forums, but the rcuniverse one can be very helpful.

OldGuy · 11.08.2009, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junkman

boiling the arms, just makes them less brittle. BTW, if you havn't read the post on the rcuniverse forum, check it out. Its about 75 pages dedicated just to these cars. The clones are a pretty touchy subject on the actual 5b forums, but the rcuniverse one can be very helpful.

Thanks! How long to "cook" those arms?

I have been on R/C Universe, and have waded through a lot of posts, but I keep running into a zillion posts on the HPI Baja VS KM clone debate and the moral, legal, implications etc, etc. You don't happen to have a link or two handy that will direct me to the stuff that is more of interest to me such as mods, improvements and so on. The moral dilemma of buying a clone is pretty much over for me since I've already bought the KM............LOL

OldGuy · **HELP! Stripped servo gears! -** 11.11.2009, 04:15 PM

HELP! Please! The KM Baja arrived yesterday. It was working great and I was using it for maybe 10 minutes and GENTLY hit my deck with the front tire. Stripped the gear on the steering servo. Futaba S 3306 servo I just bought locally does not seem to fit since it has square sides but the servo bracket on the buggy is rounded like the stock servo. Suggestions Please!

Thanks!