Libya's Violent Rebellion & other ME revolutions

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by PBO

I'm not sure who you think is continually demanding US help but this type of statement perpetuates the stereotype that the US would be smart to dissolve

It's the fact that the UN and countries involved continually demand US involvement (specifically our money). It's not a stereotype but a reality.

I am fine with the US staying out of other peoples business when it does not directly affect us, I just want others to stop asking for aid and support as well.

I also have family in Australia and do not gather from them that the entire consensus is so anti US and how we operate as suggested. This is from native Australians and others who moved there from here.

People like to make remarks against the US with wide brush strokes in regards to opinions about us and so forth with out evidence to back this up. Same thing in regards to China where I have business contacts, friends, and relatives. The way the Chinese government operates in regards to it's relationship with the US does not reflect the populous by large.

I just can't help but find it ironic how some of the most vocal anti US rhetoric comes from countries who a) have gained much from us and b) have some pretty major issues of their own to reconcile.

The old line in the Middle East referencing our relationship with Israel as the issue causing us so much grief is rather dishonest at best. The Middle East as I stated earlier has been having issues with the world long before Israel was made a new state in the last century and certainly long before the US even existed.

The fact is the can't even get along with themselves at the smallest level.

It's fine with me to move out of these areas completely. We will protect our interests and borders and when we have a perceived threat we deal with it and move on. After all, we don't need to set up governments for other nations, they can figure it out on there own.

Of course mark my words what will happen when we move our military out of foreign countries completely, because only then will the real rhetoric begin.

[J57ltr]

I say we just turn the whole place into a glass factory. Everyone has made valid points, but we aren't going to ever get anywhere with this.

Jeff

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by J57ltr

I say we just turn the whole place into a glass factory. Everyone has made valid points, but we aren't going to ever get anywhere with this.

Jeff

Then we can freely pump all the crude we want and bring the prices down to $20.00 per barrel as it should be.

[J57ltr]

Next would be those damn pirates. Just do them like the Russians did.

Jeff

[PBO]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

It's the fact that the UN and countries involved continually demand US involvement (specifically our money). It's not a stereotype but a reality.

I am fine with the US staying out of other peoples business when it does not directly affect us, I just want others to stop asking for aid and support as well.

I also have family in Australia and do not gather from them that the entire consensus is so anti US and how we operate as suggested. This is from native Australians and others who moved there from here.

People like to make remarks against the US with wide brush strokes in regards to opinions about us and so forth with out evidence to back this up. Same thing in regards to China where I have business contacts, friends, and relatives. The way the Chinese government operates in regards to it's relationship with the US does not reflect the populous by large.

I just can't help but find it ironic how some of the most vocal anti US rhetoric comes from countries who a) have gained much from us and b) have some pretty major issues of their own to reconcile.

The old line in the Middle East referencing our relationship with Israel as the issue causing us so much grief is rather dishonest at best. The Middle East as I stated earlier has been having issues with the world long before Israel was made a new state in the last century and certainly long before the US even existed.

The fact is the can't even get along with themselves at the smallest level.

It's fine with me to move out of these areas completely. We will protect our interests and borders and when we have a perceived threat we deal with it and move on. After all, we don't need to set up governments for other nations, they can figure it out on there own.

Of course mark my words what will happen when we move our military out of foreign countries completely, because only then will the real rhetoric begin.

Chances are we'll never agree on much of this & I don't mind if we don't, it's good to have varied opinions

Let me make a few points though;

The single biggest 'peace keeping' expense the US has had to deal with recently is the Iraq War. The US ignored the UN & assembled the "coalition of the willing" & pushed on regardless...nobody was demanding this in the way you are implying. Yes the coalition was 'willing' but it's reasonable to assume smaller countries were both supporting an ally (US) + following the US as a strategic move for future protection from the US should they need it. Additionally, if you consider many of the grumblings listed here relate to the cost of 'peace keeping' then that can't be attributed solely to the US trying to support the UN

The UN does engage peace keeping forces (generally speaking) to support UN efforts. This is done at a largely sustainable level by the US like many other UN countries. If costs attributed to the UN are 'means tested' I suspect the US may not always be as hardly done by as many might think. The US is a very, very wealthy country

[TexasSP]

I didn't suggest anyone demanded the war with Iraq, although no one forced any other country to become involved. My point was how people want us to continually help them (ie: send money and aid) yet b&m about everything we do.

As far as the UN is concerned sorry but I don't feel we need their permission or blessing for anything we do. I personally believe the UN has passed any usefulness it ever had and needs to move it's operations off US soil and find it's financial support elsewhere. Just look at who the UN has allowed on the Human Rights Council to see one of many points of why I do not support them. I also tire of putting up with Russia and there crap, they are not a friend or ally and never will be. Don't trust them and never will. There is a good number of my fellow citizens who would agree on these points.

We are a wealthy country, however our supplies are tapped and it's time we get ourselves out of debt and stop allowing our politician's to piss our futures down the drain. Our national and state debt has surpassed our GNP which is ridiculous. Government has no business getting into that kind of debt. In fact I believe most debt is unnecessary and our governments should be pay as you go not tax as you want to spend it. Of course I also don't believe our rights are given to us by government but that we are born with them.

Unlike many, I am an issues focused person and don't sway to one party or the other based on some odd sense of loyalty. I have no interest in the extreme left or extreme right as both are more about power than anything. How they want to take it is the only big difference but the fact is they want to take it. I lean heavily libertarian in many ways and want a whole lot less government involvement in everything.

[PBO]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

I didn't suggest anyone demanded the war with Iraq, although no one forced any other country to become involved

Not forced. Coerced, compelled, threatened - they are more appropriate

George Junior & his admin said that countries were either with the US or against, this is a strong, aggressive & devisive statement. Along with that current & future trade deals etc all hung in the balance for those countries sitting on the fence. It's far from an invitation

I find your own opinion "As far as the UN is concerned sorry but I don't feel we need their permission or blessing for anything we do" ironic & if I assume you are an average thinking US citizen then doesn't that validate my original point that the US needs to work on it foreign policies? any other country that expressed that sentiment would be labelled as all things bad by the US

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by PBO

Not forced. Coerced, compelled, threatened - they are more appropriate

George Junior & his admin said that countries were either with the US or against, this is a strong, aggressive & devisive statement. Along with that current & future trade deals etc all hung in the balance for those countries sitting on the fence. It's far from an invitation

Yeah, it was tough talk and part of propaganda. However, what did we do to those that didn't come along? That's right, nothing. You make it sound as if we would have nuked someone had they not have joined us. If I recall correctly most countries did little more than give token support with very few exceptions. Of course these same countries in turn wanted more than a token's amount of the benefits received from the invasion as well.

If you analyze the war in total many foreign businesses got some pretty sizable contracts out of the deal. Take Turkey for example who made a amount providing logistic services alone.

Of course others condemned us out of one side of their mouth but also had no problem bargaining for contracts as well and reaping other benefits. Some have even made quite lucrative careers for themselves being US bashing aficionados.

For more information in regards to this I recommend checking out ww.Stratfor.com which is a strategic geo political analyst group specializing in this type of information. They are also strictly non partisan and provide real world intelligence from all angles.

Originally Posted by PBO

I find your own opinion "As far as the UN is concerned sorry but I don't feel we need their permission or blessing for anything we do" ironic & if I assume you are an average thinking US citizen then doesn't that validate my original point that the US needs to work on it foreign policies? any other country that expressed that sentiment would be labelled as all things bad by the US

I feel every country can do their own thing without approval from the UN. I don't recognize the UN's power/authority over sovereign nations and neither should anyone. I don't see how it's ironic. Just because talking heads run their mouths about on situation or another doesn't necessarily reflect the populous at large. With Russia a major part along with all the little rogue nations full of hard core dictators I can't see why anyone would recognize that farce which is the UN.

I never said that other nations do and most people here don't believe they need our permission to do anything. However if another country is accepting money from us, then yes we have a right to have a voice in there actions when it can affect us. This is just like any investment. However, in reality I would prefer we not give money so freely to others and especially those that don't have our interests in mind.

On another note what is Australia doing in regards to foreign policy which is so much superior to ours? When I look closely it seems to me Australia has it's own fair share of issues facing it as well. I am just saying everyone loves to point and bash the US as it's quite the sport across the globe but what happens when it's pointed inward? It also seems to me as your suggesting that we should ask others permission before we make moves but others should not have ours? Maybe I am misreading this but it's how I took it.

I think in many ways you are assuming I support everything our government does. However, the point I am trying to make is that I want a whole lot less government involvement in everything period. I want a whole lot smaller government period. I am all for our government being less involved in cleaning up others messes and trying to police their activities. I also don't want foreign governments telling us how to run our borders and enforce our laws as our closest neighbors so like to do. Especially when they have benefited so heavily from our proximity to them.

We will sit on our continent and maintain a large and modern military here and if someone jacks with us or our interests we can take them out them come right back home. Kind of like how Jefferson handled events around Tripoli back in his time.

[PBO]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

Yeah, it was tough talk and part of propaganda. However, what did we do to those that didn't come along? That's right, nothing. You make it sound as if we would have nuked someone had they not have joined us

Nuked I was thinking more along the lines of trade reductions & economic harm rather than violence. It was a fairly crazy time, with a lot of media generated fear, governments needed to act for their people, demonstrate solidarity & maintain alliances. Difficult when there's a superpower doing all the tough talking

Originally Posted by TexasSP

I feel every country can do their own thing without approval from the UN. I don't recognize the UN's power/authority over sovereign nations and neither should anyone. I don't see how it's ironic. Just because talking heads run their mouths about on situation or another doesn't necessarily reflect the populous at large. With Russia a major part along with all the little rogue nations full of hard core dictators I can't see why anyone would recognize that farce which is the UN.

I wasn't neccessarily identifying the UN, there are a number of communities and alliances that consult each other before taking any action. Yes, this can slow the process down but often this is a good thing - a cooling off period if you like - & to be certain, I'm no fan of the UN either

Originally Posted by TexasSP

On another note what is Australia doing in regards to foreign policy which is so much superior to ours? When I look closely it seems to me Australia has it's own fair share of issues facing it as well. I am just saying everyone loves to point and bash the US as it's quite the sport across the globe but what happens when it's pointed inward? It also seems to me as your suggesting that we should ask others permission before we make moves but others should not have ours? Maybe I am misreading this but it's how I took it.

Australia is a little US, we like to have our way in our region & we are the peacekeeper/policeman. We exercise tough border control policies (which are often election issues) that challenge human rights. We want our cake & the ability to eat it too

As a nation we are very generous on our own terms & aid to neighbouring nations is provided relatively unchallenged although I can't quote you figures. We encourage trade over our own borders but will protect our producers & manufacturers (certain industries will say otherwise) to retain domestic industry & supply. We are selling off assets to foreign companies & countries faster than we realise or want to

We consider ourselves an ally of the US, UK etc and will engage globally as an ally. We are fearfull of some of our large neighbours like Indonesia & we enjoy the brownie points we earn as an ally

We consider ourselves as more egalitarian than not & get confused about a nagging sense of entitlement and our pragmatism. However we sleep soundly knowing we are a resouce rich country so one day that pile of dirt will be worth something if it isn't now

We are very defensive over our mate New Zealand although we hate it when they beat us in sport - bloody Kiwis. We will always help a mate & prefer to fix our own problems

[TexasSP]

Come on, you know better than to pay attention to the media. They're all flash-bang and sensationalism and nothing more. I put little stock in media in general. It's always read between the lines and wondering what the rest of the story is in addition to the real story.

I'll address more a little later when not in a hurry.

Hey, but we still love each other right?!

[JERRY2KONE]

Hey haven't you heard? After pouring billions upon billions of US $$$$$ into Iraq and suffering losses in the thousands for our troops Iraq is now demanding that we pay them for clean up and recovery of their capital city, since of course we have decimated everything in support of their search of freedom. They are also now putting together law suits to demand that we compensate their family losses as well. This is why we need to pull everyone back and stop helping everyone else solve their issues. The only country I have seen show any sort of gratfulness for our support has been Korea since the Korean war. Of course the new younger generation has little feelings in the way of sentiment for us.

The situation in Libya is dismal at best. Momar is an aging idiot who has begun showing his a$$ once again stating that he will kill everyone in Libya and burn their oil fields before he gives up his command of the country. What a Moron. The days for that type of leadership were over hundreds of years ago. The people uprising against these tyrant leaders is long overdue. Rise up and smash these idiots and move for better times.

[thzero]

Yeah Jerry, the Iraq thing is annoying. Shows you liberating a country from madmen really doesn't benefit you at all... eventually they will fall by themselves.

I have mixed feelings... good to see the common people uprising, demanding freedoms, etc. Bad in that it exposes potential for extreme muslim left to take over.

[georgec]

Originally Posted by thzero

Bad in that it exposes potential for extreme muslim left to take over.

Valid concern, case in point...Iran!

[thzero]

Exactly... went from pro-democracy movement to extremism.

Originally Posted by georgec

Valid concern, case in point...Iran!

[PBO]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

Come on, you know better than to pay attention to the media. They're all flash-bang and sensationalism and nothing more. I put little stock in media in general. It's always read between the lines and wondering what the rest of the story is in addition to the real story.

I'll address more a little later when not in a hurry.

Hey, but we still love each other right?!

The media are part of the strategic thinking for countries, politicians etc you can't escape that & that's the context I was using my comment. Whether you or I believe the media or not doesn't matter...it's the majority of the population that matters & unfortunately most of them will

Yes, of course we still love each other. Nothing wrong with spirited discussions

In many respects the world needs the US to take a more high brow approach to the changing world. If the US does lose it's standing there will be a power vacuum of sorts & that's definitely not in any Western countries interests - nor for the rest of the world

History shows all great empires ultimately tumble. If we consider the US a modern empire, a few more generations of stability would be nice!