UE, Billy Trucks, FLM, RCM - Page 3 - RC-Monster Forums

George16 · 01.09.2009, 11:37 AM

FYI, Jamie already did when he made the FLM hybrids based on UE's VBS. So, where's the gentleman's agreement on that?

01.10.2009, 06:41 PM

When I bought the setbacks from BT, they were advertised as UE. Only reason I would consider paying that kind of money for them. BT'ss advertising has since been changed so you know they are not UE.

What he is selling though still trades on the rep of the UE originals. I wouldn't be surprised that the guy making them is doubling his costs and BT is doing the same as well. $125 is still overpriced for a pr of UE knockoff setbacks even if they are 7075 T6.

As far as someone copying them to fill the void, it might be legal, but I don't see stealing someone else's intellectual property as ethical, period.

JERRY2KONE · **Unfortunate -** 01.10.2009, 07:39 PM

Yea it is unfortunate that our business society works out that way for the original designer if a patent is not acquired, but that is the American way. If there is a demand, then someone is going to fill the gap left by the lack of supply. Bottom line is that this is a battle between UE and whoever else is copying his designs. If UE were to come out and ask for support from the R.C community by boycoting them and only buying his original UE products as a gesture of good faith, then I am sure that most everyone would jump onboard to support UE in return for UE support, don't you think? That is the problem right there. There is no support from UE and if you ask Robin for parts or info as to when they will be available you either get no response at all, or nasty responses and excuses, so it is no wander this problem exists in the first place. I know from first hand about trying to reason with him about getting their stocks refilled and reproducing the lightning chassis, but all you get back is "mind your own business", because he does not share company secrets. What kind of customer support is that? He claims that most of his stuff is just too expensive to re-make anymore, so if someone else wants to supply the R/C gap by making knock offs, then at least we have something to work with, and it is not illegal. So knowing all of this the arguement is mute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duster_360

When I bought the setbacks from BT, they were advertised as UE. Only reason I would consider paying that kind of money for them. BT'ss advertising has since been changed so you know they are not UE.

What he is selling though still trades on the rep of the UE originals. I wouldn't be surprised that the guy making them is doubling his costs and BT is doing the same as well. $125 is still overpriced for a pr of UE knockoff setbacks even if they are 7075 T6.

As far as someone copying them to fill the void, it might be legal, but I don't see stealing someone else's intellectual property as ethical, period.

_paralyzed_ · 01.10.2009, 09:10 PM

I don't understand the "intellectual property" argument. If Robin had some fancy degree or used some state of the art software to design and make UE products I can see where this would be valid. They're hunks of polished aluminum, and the technology isn't too great for a high school dropout. Anybody here could have come up with his ideas, he was just fortunate enough to do it first and make a pretty penny.

If Robin were still making UE parts, then of course there would be ethical wrongdoings. I don't see any problem with supplying a product that people want. I refer you to 427 Shelby Cobra replicas. Nobody has a problem with anybody stealing Caroll Shelby's "intellectual property", Cobra's are no longer produced but there is still a demand so somebody stepped up and filled the void. This doesn't take away anything from actual Cobra's, it just gives the buying public what they want.

Business is business. Dollars trump ethics everytime.

I'm also dumbfounded that people are loyal to Robin Oury. I have tried and tried to become a member of the forums, I've been unsuccessful in ordering anything from him, and countless e-mails have never been answered.

I also don't understand how someone else making those parts takes away from Robin. He doesn't profit from astronomical e-bay sales. I don't get it.

Interesting thread, this one. I wanna hear more opinions. I'm not always right................

JERRY2KONE · **This subject. -** 01.10.2009, 09:36 PM

The subject of UE always seems to induce some kind of excited emotions and anger for some reason. Some people respond from the premise that Robin is a peronal friend of some kind. If that is the case then please try to talk with him and get him to speak out to the R/C public and express his feelings in a way that will help us understand why any of us should defend or support UE at this point. Yes we love the UE products that has never been a question. The thing that I think we all feel so jaded about is the lack of support from UE. Sure there may be a few people who can still squeeze a part from Robin here and there, but he has pretty much abandoned the R.C community as a whole. I have purchased UE gear both from EBay and from UE directly, but only in limited quantities. This is not a subject for any of us to argue or fight about. It is a subject in which we can discuss and come together in search of a resolve that will help us all overcome and maybe find some answers. If anyone knows first hand what is going on at UE then great, share it with us. If not then it is all just speculation. We have all head rumors to the effect that UE was going to bounce back and refill the shelves in the last two years. If UE does plan to produce any of their famous toys, then why not release that fact to the general public and shut everyone up? All of these emotions and discontent are being fueled by the silence comming from UE. Like I shared with Robin a while back if he treated Harley Davidson the way he is treating the R/C community he would be embroiled in a battle with them. Maybe that is the problem. We are a large community to be sure, and we produce a steady flow of money for this hobby. So somebody is going to step up and make some $$$$ one way or another. If not UE, then someone else. Simple economics supply and demand.

Chadworkz · 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _paralyzed_

I don't understand the "intellectual property" argument.

Intellectual Property is just that...property. If you have an original idea, then that idea belongs to you, because you thought of it first, before anyone else did, so it's yours. The legal side of this is a gray area, but it still can be fought, as long as you can prove that you had the idea first. Robib thought up some amazing designs, completely different than any other designs out there, so those designs do, in fact, belong to him, and him only.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _paralyzed_

If Robin had some fancy degree

Robin does have some fancy degrees, he is a trained engineer, versed in design, strength, the whole science behind his designs and why they are so good, and what it takes to make them so good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _paralyzed_

or used some state of the art software to design and make UE products I can see where this would be valid.

He did use state of the art software to design, model, test, and develope his parts. He used AutoCad, SolidWorks, CAD/CAM, and many other applications to help him design his parts to be the strongest, most durable, lightest, best performing, and overall best and most radical parts ever created.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _paralyzed_

They're hunks of polished aluminum, and the technology isn't too great for a high school dropout. Anybody here could have come up with his ideas, he was just fortunate enough to do it first and make a pretty penny.

Robin's parts are far from just hunks of aluminum...he didn't just think of a design, draw it on paper, and then have a CNC machine mill it out...there was actual science and engineering involved in the design of his parts, science that less than 1% of the population even understands. And no, not everyone could have just come up with the designs he came up with, there is far more to it than that. Like I said, his parts aren't just shapes milled out of aluminum, they are designs that have been scientifically engineered to be the strongest, most durable, lightest, and highest performing of any ever created...his hi-impact designs are some of the most radical ever created, and have never been replicated, and probably never will. The man is crazy-smart, and gave us scientifically engineering, tested, and proven parts that will never be created by anyone else, unless he sells his designs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _paralyzed_

If Robin were still making UE parts, then of course there would be ethical wrongdoings. I don't see any problem with supplying a product that people want. I refer you to 427 Shelby Cobra replicas. Nobody has a problem with anybody stealing Caroll Shelby's "intellectual property", Cobra's are no longer produced but there is still a demand so somebody stepped up and filled the void. This doesn't take away anything from actual Cobra's, it just gives the buying public what they want.

The Cobra replicas were not stolen from Carol, they were licensed and endorsed by him, and he gave the replicators permission to make them...and to this day, he still gets paid royalties for every single one produced. There used to be a manufacturer across town from me that built them from scratch, and Carol himself actually came down to check the shop and the cars out back in the late 80s/early 90s. Like I said, Carol Shelby endorsed those replicas, the design was not stolen, it was licensed to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _paralyzed_

I also don't understand how someone else making those parts takes away from Robin. He doesn't profit from astronomical e-bay sales. I don't get it.

The reason it would take away from Robin is simple...if a company started reproducing Robin's parts, but they just weren't as good as Robin's originals, when they broke, people would start a firestorm blaming Robin for making crappy parts, even though he didn't actualy produce the replicas...because they were his design, any problems with them would fall on Robin, and that is not something he wants to deal with.

I agree that Robin isn't handling the situation properly, but it's his business and his reputation, he can do with them what he pleases. Fact is, he made the best parts ever made, PERIOD...and we will never see anything like it ever again. Even if a company created their own designs that were just as good as UE designs, they would always get compared to UE, and people would always label them not as good as UE, simply because UE was first, and will always be the Holy Grail of RC parts.

Just my $0.02...

jayjay283 · 01.10.2009, 07:21 PM

Robin sent me, my stuff instantly, cant say a bad word about him, stock may be low but what he has he ships like a gentleman

suicideneil · 01.10.2009, 09:41 PM

I see nothing wrong with Mike or FLM offering their own versions of things like Setback arms- so long as they arent a direct copy of the UE design. Heck, you could design arms that are just swept back like the optional Revo ones are- no need for the fancy setup the UE design call for (talking about the rear knuckle design specifically with that setup).

marcus · 01.11.2009, 12:26 PM

I think that you also have to consider is this: Reverse engineering still costs money and time, and you have to commit a CNC machine to an amount of that time as well. You'll get wastage and allsorts of setbacks.
Now, to us die-hard enthusiasts that doen't seem like an obstacle because "If you make them we will buy", but we are just a few guys. To recover costs and to make this stuff actually pay, UE, RCM, whomever, have to sell A LOT.
This is why Robin got into trouble and said it wasn't paying. His gear is/was so high quality and used the best materials that his prices were understandably high and therefore an easy target to be ousted by cheapo outfits like GPM etc. Now of course you have a whole raft of companies selling MAxx stuff so now the average man/boy on the street who wants alloy for his Maxx Wouldn't buy UE if it was in stock. Why would he ? Even if he knows the stuff is the best, the price was just toooo much for him to justify it.

I know UE is the best, what I'm saying is that it's not as easy to make this stuff sell as you would think. If we RCM Maxx owners all committed to buying a full set of setback suspension from Mike if he made them, he'd still lose out. It's mainstream sales that's needed... The market isn't there.

The SAME THING happened with the EK4 and MSJ. MSJ made superb stuff for the EK4 which was inherently weak (as weak as the T/E-maxx) but despite their stuff regenarating the EK4 community, the mainstream market thinned out and the modellers wouldn't pay the price. Somebody bought the CAD files for the parts and tried to restart production but closed their doors within months. Now I know that there are CAD files bouncing around for sale but nobody wants them.

_paralyzed_ · 12:49 PM

All good points. But there are millions more maxx's than ek4's, and maxx's are still being produced. And a percentage of those maxx owners want the best of the best. Maybe I'll go to school for machining and have the state buy me a cnc mill or waterjet. I'm getting pretty tired of just talking...................

marcus · 01.11.2009, 01:13 PM

I accept your point about the number of Maxx's although it's been out for sooo long the army of third party hopups for it is without end.

Also bear in mind visibility. We know of UE, RCM, FLM. But ask any Maxx owner you happen to see in a shop, on the street etc. They will not.

We search for the best, we do research, therefore we are here.

90% of Maxx owners run them stock and the rest buy their hopups [by recommendation] over the counter or through Ebay.

Just my 2cents

_paralyzed_ · 01.11.2009, 08:13 PM

Robin had a third party make UE parts. I'm shopping around for prices, people are looking for work right now! I can't imagine gathering gears and making super 6's or otb's would be that hard either. You can call me R/C Mafia

JERRY2KONE · **Caution.... -** 01.11.2009, 08:24 PM

You crack me up Harold. You better check your wheelchair brakes before you go anywhere. You know how emotional people tend to get on this subject. I am happy to see you motivated and in forward motion with your latest quest Sir. I wish you luck and success on your adventure. Did you see the "track/tread wheelchair" I posted up on Shaun's wheelchair thread? You need to get you one of those and mount some cannons to it for defensive measures. Let us know if there is anything that we can help with for idea with your CNC inquiries. Have a good day Sir.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _paralyzed_

Robin had a third party make UE parts. I'm shopping around for prices, people are looking for work right now! I can't imagine gathering gears and making super 6's or otb's would be that hard either. You can call me R/C Mafia

TexasSP · 01.12.2009, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _paralyzed_

Robin had a third party make UE parts. I'm shopping around for prices, people are looking for work right now! I can't imagine gathering gears and making super 6's or otb's would be that hard either. You can call me R/C Mafia

Harold,

I have a contact here in Houston who does excellent work and already has a product line for the rc plane market. LMK. Their work has always been top notch and pricing fair.

I am behind you. If one doesn't patent and/or copyright there work, then it's stupid of them to think someone else won't use it.

Rivermaxx · 02:35 PM

I believe robin(UE) is taking legal action on this against Billy Trucks at least thats what he says. I have had many dealings with scott (billy trucks) and he is a real stand up guy never sent me a bad part.. But him selling copies of ue items .Well I really dont agree with this. Unless UE gave him permission which is not the case.