No ask, no tell me

[hootie7159]

IMHO good parents will be good parents regardless of what sex they are...who are we to say that same-sex parenting will not be as good as heterosexual parenting..if anything, homosexual parenting will teach their children to be more open/accepting/tolerant of people differences (sexual preferance, religion, beliefs etc...etc...etc...). And as for a homosexual couple choosing a lifestyle that doesn't biologically support the ability to have children, so what?...if a couple wants to adopt or have a child it's their decision, my wife and i have several heterosexual friends that were raised in a same-sex household and they are great people...there was no "gay bias" except that these people had to constantly defend their parents growing up because the other children in their class weren't raised in a tolerant household....we might as well say asians can only marry asians and adopt only asian children...hjow silly does that sound? Diversity is a good thing as well as opinions......I'm not flaming anyone or anything but I am a strong believer in "gay rights" and will support their lifestyle no matter what...If it makes you happy who are we to deny them their happiness..? And as far as the whole working next to homosexual people topic goes, i don't give a crap about the sexual preference of the person working next to me...as long as he/she was the best/most qualified person to do the job, I am happy with that....I'm never going to go into a burning building and think the whole time "hey, the captain is gay so i probably shouldn't listen to what she's telling me so that I can avoid getting hurt." Thats stupid-talk....If they are qualified and are the best person to do the job I'm all for it....In the fire service, trust is EVERTHING...there's no time to worry about cultural/reiligous/sexual preference differences...in the end just DO YOUR JOB AND DO IT RIGHT.......sorry, but I am slightly fired up and disappointed about the lack to support towards the gay community by the members of this forum but everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I respect each and every one of yours....

and one last thing, i read a page or two back about some blaming the women's rights movement about the downfall of the "family unit"..?!?!?!?! WTF?! How do you know that most women and men nowadays are unhappy? and that somehow the women's rights movement contributed to the growth of the "gay" community? I was raised by working parents and when we got home we would all sit down and eat dinner together. I have a HUGE immediate family and we meet once a month for a big family dinner...personally, having a lack a "family unit" cannot be blamed on a women's rights movement but rather on the particular family that chooses to NOT bond together..My wife was raised by working parents and when we have kids she will continue to work as well....yes having two working parents meant that I was in fact placed in day care or taken to a baby sitter but my "family unit" is as strong as ever and BOTH of my parents are happy....I fully support my wife in whatever she chooses to do and I also believe in equal rights for men AND women...I love the fact that my wife is an independant woman....ok..i'm done...again, everone is entitled to their own opinion and i in no way shape or form did not mean to disrespect anyone...these are just my opnions....

[bumsnogger]

Hi guys.OOH a moral debate.I think there's a few bible believers on here. I'm not gay despite my user name. It's not the gays who've "broken" society,It's the people who don't control thier kids,who have kids ,etc.16 year olds in the UK get a house if they have a kid.The more kids the bigger the house!.My friend caught 2, 9 year olds half naked making out behind her car,a few days ago.If the parents had a few morals it'd make a hell of a difference. The UK has chavs(it comes from gypo's ,it means thief child) They're a moral vaccuum, They don't know or care who the fathers of the kids are ,as long as they get benefits.When I was at school(long time back) a family on benefits had a house built for them ,as they had 9 kids.ALL of which were little S***s,stealing , robbing ,bullying,etc.. If you're willing to make an effort you're suppressed,if you breed uncontrollably you're treated better than others who make the effort!.I'm 40,and have had depression since I was 7,I haven't bred cause it's not fair to bring a kid into a depressed household.I know my mums got it.So then idiots are taking over!

[suicideneil]

Its America man, you have to remember that all the religious weirdos and loonies fled Britian way-back-when so that they could worship God however they pleased without being persecuted by the Church of Rome. Trouble is that means you end up with crazy cults and secluded communities that force pre-pubescent girls to marry dirty old men etc etc; and scientology ( oh brother... ).

I agree with kids being brought up by two men in a gay relentionship is gonna leave them with a possibly scewed view on whats normal so far as relationships go, but I doubt it would cause the child to become gay themselves just because their carers are ( unless they were already that way inclined; IT IS NOT A CHOICE to become gay ffs.

I also agree that it would be much worse for the child to grow up in a family where the dad beats the wife & possibly children and sits arrond drinking all day- what kind of twisted moral and ethical attitude woudl that leave the kid with towards woman when he gets older.

The important thing is that the child is loved and cared for, and not abused- so long as they are taught about relationships ( gay and straight ) as they grow up, they wont be left screwed up in the head.

[bumsnogger]

Hi guys,this is fun.I noticed someone mentioned irani homosexuals,or lack of.If your caught being gay,they cut your head off!.So the guys with homosexual tendencies bu***r the little boys!If you look back into history,they have been doing this for millenia.Vlad the impaler was given to the Turks as a way of stopping them invading romania.guess what happened to him? Thats why he liked impaling people!(He's the guy dracula's based on)This repression is more dangerous than openness.As for battlefield high jinks,I would go without a "roll in the hay" rather than be shot to pieces by a fundamentalist(the clues in the name,mentalist!) As would a gay soldier.I've got a friend,Big gay Dave,he's big and gay,He would kill for his nieces,literally! It's not down to sexual prefferences,it's down to who you are,If you're a twat,you're a twat whether you're gay or not. My girlfriend's friend is bi,he can't find a girl he gets on well enough with tyo settle down.It's up to him,he's not affecting kids ,or anyone else really.

[hootie7159]

I agree suicide...as long as the child is loved....I was raised in a heterseual household and I was raised to be tolerant of everything (well that and I went to high school and elementary in San Francisco so I was exposed to everthing at a young age) so in my eyes happiness was normal :). But again...that's just MHO :) glad we can kep it civil

[bigboi146]

Originally Posted by BrianG

One thing I don't agree with is that gay/lesbian couples can adopt or have kids (unless the child was born from a "normal" relationship before they turned/decided/found out to be gay). It's one thing to live one's life the way they want, but to subject the kid to "gay bias" while growing up is another. Comes down to what is "biologically correct". Again, this is just my opinion...

I agree with you. Although Im no psychologist i believe that kids do naturally follow in their parents footsteps. Check out this poem by Larkin.


They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

[hootie7159]

Im gonna have to disagree with you saying that because a child is raised by gay parents he/she will most likely turn out to be gay themselves...yes children are the products of how parents raised them but what about the little knuckle-headed kids who commit crimes whose parents are heterosexual and great parents? I'm jut saying that there are other influences on how a child is raised besides the parents...( friends, society, culture..etc etc etc)...once children are old enough to realize that they have a CHOICE to lead there lives one way or the other how they end up is ultimately their decision....there are many heterosexual couples who have been great parents whose children turn out to be gay....as well as many heterosexual couples who have been great parents by their child makes one bad decision and now they're in jail....we really need to get rid of stereotypes and focus on good people raising good children who ultimately will make the right choices for themselves when they get old enough and become good people ....Gay or straight....

[kulangflow]

Questions for the group just for the sake of discussion:

-If you support the homosexual lifestyle, do you also have all of those exact same tolerances and support for polygamist families?

-If someone does not choose to support the homosexual lifestyle, does this automatically make them ignorant and/or intolerant?

-For the "who are we to ..." questions, can this not also be applied to pretty much every cultural/ethical decision made?

I'm enjoying this discussion by the way. If I may offer some suggestions for the benefit of the discussion:

-Everyone remember that no matter how popular your opinion might be, you are not universally right just because you think you are right.
-Try to stay away from factual statements like "it is a choice" or "it is not a choice" because neither has actually been proven. Just say, "I think it is/isn't a choice because ....".
-Remember that none of this is a one way or the other issue. I believe most people are somewhere in between and largely undecided.

Hopefully this helps keep things civil and productive.

[suicideneil]

1) Not really- one wife per husband, first come first served Though it is true that some people have the urge to have many relationships, some only wish to have one partner- I think thats true of many animal species, so humans are no different ( you get gay animals too btw ). Most western cultures say its the law to only have on partner, I cant imagine trying to keep several nagging wives happy at once, would cost a fortune...
2) Not neccessarily, depends what their reasoning is ( 'burn the homos cos they am evil' isnt a good reason to not support same-sex relationships ). Some good points have been bought forward in this thread, but also some fairly weak ones too. Unless you could conclusively prove that same-sex parents leave their children screwed up in the long term its fairly invlaid to say they definatley would or wouldnt- makes me wonder if Hitler's parents were nice people or not, never seen any documentaries on the subject... ( IE nature vs nurture ).
3) Different cultures & communities have different view points on issues, but you have to take an objective view and decide if something ( like homo-sex ) is harmful to society or not really- think of all the great hairdressers & fashion designers we'd lose if homo-sex was illegal. One shouldnt force their views on other people, rather we should all respect eachothers views so long as they are well founded ( preferably with facts or research & well informed opinions, not just ' the bible says...' ).

[reno911]

I still believe that it is a fundamental choice, that may or may not be related to that persons life combined with genetic aspects. Say a young girl was raised in a family where her father beat her mom. Then in her first relationship she was beaten by her boyfriend. She had always had close female friends, whose lives where similar. One day something happened where she just never thought to be with a man due to an image she has developed of them.

Same can go for men. One of my gay friends was raised in a family of 2 boys and 3 girls. Being the oldest, what i consider the experimental child, he was treated equally by both parents. He was of a smaller petite build like his mom, and did not get the bulky manly features of his dad. His dad tried to get him into sports, but due to his build shortly gave up. Both parents tried to find something he was good at. He excelled in school, like his mom, eventually both parents figured out he had a talent in art. Both very supportive. Later in life after three girls, the had another boy. This time he resembled the dad more. Horrible grades and big broad shoulders. Naturally the dad took to this son more due to there resemblance. Leaving the older scrawny son to his mom. Over time the support from both sides became single sided and the dad started saying that he wished he had the second son first. Basically admitting that he waist his time with the four first kids getting to the last good son. Naturally the older boy fell into the niche with his 3 younger sisters and his mom. After trying to compete with what means he had to develop and relate to his father's manly lifestyle his father kept shooting it down. He tried dating women in highschool and college, but he had too much of his mothers kindness and emotional ties. He told me once that he finally had enough with trying to fornicate with the opposite sex since he was practically one of them. It was a shame because he always had extremely good looking girls drawn to him. But they always said he was too nice, and not very decisive. We didn't see each other for a few years, he went to school in San Francisco for art, and when he came back he was no longer trying to get a girl, he had found his good friend and partner.

Long story short, there are too many factors in how homosexuality develops. There is such a large genepool in this world, combined with such large amounts of liberal freedoms that not only can homosexuality occur, but many other variations of anything that can be considered normal. Then again, maybe we should have started this conversation with the topic of what is considered a normal American life.

[TexasSP]

I have been out for the past few days and went to a crawler comp yesterday so I an just now catching back up. I will hit a few points here.

For the adoption part, I am with finnster and some others. First you must understand adoption is very close to my heart. My wife and sister in law are adopted as well as several of my cousins. While I do not support a gay/lesbian couple as the first choice for an adoptive child, I would much rather the child be in that family than one who is abusive or lost in the foster system. I believe a human has much more ability to deal with any harm that would do them versus dealing with an abusive relationship.

As for the celebrities it sickens me how it has become celeb-sheik to adopt children from wherever. Seriously, it's just like Paris and her dogs. Children are not an accessory and/or status symbol.

Now going back to the main topic. I still can't see how it adversely affects people being gay/lesbian in the military. There are plenty of hetero people causing problems as well and just can't see how someone being gay will automatically cause a problem. As long is the guy in the shower isn't staring at you constantly who cares? I had guys in high school who we later found out were gay and took showers with us in the locker room with no adverse effects. I really don't see that if I am hunkered down under fire in Iraq next to a gay guy that his first inclination is to jump me and have sex.

I have known too many gay/lesbian people, have and had too many gay/lesbian friends and have gays/lesbians in my family to pigeon hole them into a corner all the same. I know people who lived the gay/lesbian lifestyle and now do not. And no they didn't go to some weird religious camp to scare the gay away. These are people who were in therapy and through it's course worked through many issues and came out wanting a different life. So my belief is that a myriad of factors contributes to a person being gay and that there is no set formula or gene that makes it so.

[hootie7159]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

So my belief is that a myriad of factors contributes to a person being gay and that there is no set formula or gene that makes it so.

well said tex....nice post...

[zeropointbug]

Ultimately it is choice, I would agree with that. (Reno911) To get to the crossroads there is something causing it... I have said society, but I think a better word would be 'system', it's fucked up as most of you will agree and like Texas said, a myriad of factors that stems from the root of the system.

[bumsnogger]

Hi guys.I had a friend who's stepdad would come home drunk and b****r him.He's a full on junkie now! His stepdad was "straight" He ruined a life! But my friend did slit him from hip to hip,and got "away with it" because of diminished responsibility.That means the police knew about it!! So ,if his stepdad was gay ,he wouldn't have "needed" to do that to a child,he would have got his jollies with his partner.Same in the muslim world,or anywhere that bans homosexuallity.People have extremely strong urges.Oh nice one to the african president who let the 2 gay guys off a 14 year sentence for getting engaged. If any of us couldn't satisfy our urges,we'd explode!(not literally).If someone doesn't find the opposite sex attractive,but does find the same sex nice,who am I to say it's wrong? Or you for that matter. If Obamah said ugly women deserve sex,and every American man had to service a monster,could you get it up? Neither can gay guys ,with pretty or munty ladies!

[rabosi]

Originally Posted by Arct1k

Play nice everyone... :)

Nice and subtle. I'm surprised no one else commented.