Nosediving Neus
 

Hey guys, just found out the other day that a direct drive conversion with a Neu motor requires a bit of throttle mid air to keep the nose up. Did you find the same?
Usually I use Lehners, they freewheel much smoother, and obviously the mid air controll is more similar to those of nitros.

Just curious if you found the same. Jumping wise, I like the Lehners (and even Feigaos) better.

Daf

I have experinced similar thing with feigao type motor. Ofcourse important that gear mesh is normal no any binding, motor bearings is ok, ESC dont have drag brake etc but one thing more, if spur and pinion not on one line car acting differently.
If pinions spisns anticlockwise i noticed this:
http://www.hot.ee/tom255/gearmesh1.jpg
And also plastic spur felt smoother maybe because its quieter...

Interesting observation Daf. I just switched from a Hacker B50 (which is also a free spinning motor like a Lehner) to a Neu in my buggy an started to notice the same thing. But, I didnt connect it to the motor being the issue. However, now that you say that it makes total sense. I may have to bring a free spinning motor and a neu with me to the track next time and test this theory.

I found that out a long time ago with my Aveox system. Some of my Aveox motor doesn't have a very strong cogging, but the lower turn one does.

Maybe adjust the throttle trim ever so slightly so that there is a teeny tiny bit of throttle when in "neutral"?

Yeah, that's what I was going to suggest. It worked for me with my dual 9L E-maxx.
Dafni- What is the length of a Lehner 1950?

Those Neus have a strong resistance to turning just sitting in my hand. I can imagine there would be some braking force unless some throttle was applied. Comes with the territory when you have a slotted stator I guess.

that's annoying. You can't get used to that.

It's not said that silence means more efficient; remember, plastic is an acoustic absorber.

I don't understand your graphics; the only thing that could make a difference is the cg, it has nothing to do with binding, unless the motor (pinion) and the spur are not parallel.

the stator would act like a fly-wheel. perhaps a heavier pinion would help Daf.. LOL

The Plettenbergs got the same strong resistance and 4 poles and they nosedive if you brake, too.

you mean if you don't brake?

If it's nose diving, just hold the throttle on for that extra second to kick the front up so when you drop throttle it levels the car out midflight ready for the come down.

I've experienced the same issue with my Neu over moderately inclined jump faces in the Buggy and Truggy. The steeper the face, the less it's an issue. Of coarse my current ride, the Revo, wants to backflip instead of nosedive. Running a Neu vs. fiegao/wan./nem. is like automatically dialing in 3.5% of brake drag; barely noticeable on the ground but occasionally annoying in the air. I've learned to compensate by "blipping" the throttle at lip contact just as if I was on my motocross bike.

I think its the core design kind of acts like a drag brake, only lots more stronger than any brushed. I've had my G2R with a 1515/2.5d nearly do a front flip when i just let off the throttle in the air

Daf knows what he is doing, trust me..

I'm sure he does, but Mozzy is right you just have to adjust the way you drive the vehicle.

he shares an observation, it's not a problem?

never mind.

I haven't noticed that with my Neu. And I've been using a 1515 2.5D in a buggy. (Until I can sell it and get a 1512/2D) Yes, it's very hard to turn the shaft by hand, but does not seem to act like a drag brake, at least to me (With Quark 125b). Double check that the drag brake is off.

I noticed with my big 2280, I had to do the same thing, although it was free spinning... it Still had to give it a little throttle to keep it levelled just because of the size of the motor... I only had this problem with my E-maxx and Mayhem buggy... ALl the other nitro to electric conversions were okay...

I think if you are used to driving a Neu powered vehicle you dont even notice it. The only reason I noted any difference is I switched from the Hacker to the new and tried it 10 minutes later in the exact same setup. I only rn one pack with the Neu before going home. I was just trying to see how the powere of the Hacker 10XL and the Neu 1512/2.5d felt back to back and geared for the same speed.

Its a very easy compensation to make and if you are used to driving it that way and Lehner of Hacker may seem light in the nose to you.

I wasn't saying he didn't know what he was doing.I guess from my perspective & having worked in a LHS, it's given me the added benefit of driving nearly every type of car on the mainstream market which forced me to be very open minded on how every car was different.

I'm probably one of the few guys at my local track that can ask anyone for a burn of their car on the track & they quite happily hand me the tx & say go hard.

Naturally I do, :lol:, & pull some pretty impressive laps (compared to them) with a car that's set up totally different to all mine. Although, the majority of the time I'm usually asked to drive a car to "see what I thought" of their set up & offer advice to correct any problems.

Please bare in mind, I know I'm not the best driver around & I will never say I am or that I know everything, I'm just very adaptive to situations & also make observations purely from curiosity of a persons individual set up.

Off on a tangent, my mate asked me to try his MBX5T with a MR Ninja 21 to help him iron out some handling issues before the racing started. I took it out completed two laps to get a feel & then I started going hard with it & another friend that always beats me in truggy class realised I was driving it & tried to catch me.
He came up to me later on & said "I was trying my hardest to catch you & I couldn't." I felt like it wasn't fast at all, but, a few people saw me drive & said it was very fast.

Do you guy's get that feeling too? I mean, you think you're slow, but, you're pulling blistering times. Well, that was the night I collapsed at the track from blood clots in my lungs & haven't driven a nitro car since. Another reason why I'm going brushless, no smoking!!

Can't add much here because my Neu is still not here (seems the whole RC industry is on backorder!) anyway I wonder for you guys having this issue if the vehicle seems to feel like it's breaking when going to a corner in neutral as well?

I would have to say that if it's braking in the air, it's braking on the ground too.

It doesn't doing on the ground as much due to the weight of the vihecle. It the air the wheels/tires are basically spinning free.

Oh ok, wasn't sure.

to slow down tires in the air takes way less energy than braking an entire car. (inertia)

I realise that.

That's why you get rid of the motor braking & use the mechanical brakes.

Also, not using the motor as a brake prevents the motor from overheating.

mechanical brakes on a brushless vehicle? and back at home you are still firing the stove with rocks?

Don't give up your day job, cause, you're a crap comedian.

If you took the time to look at commercially available conversions, the majority offer the mechanical braking as an option.

The Tekno Revo conversion uses the existing brakes as do alot of their buggy & truggy conversions.
This is directly from their site..........
Uses stock mechanical brakes so you can tune front/rear brake bias if using the center differential kit. This results in much more predictable braking and less heat generation compared to using 'motor braking', not to mention it will save your transmission from unneeded stress.

The only good thing those rocks are for is to throw at your head.

Look before opening mouth.

I apologize for my post, i didn't realized that it would lead into a response like this from your side..

I have tried both, and motorbrakes outperform mechanical brakes. You could simple ask me about my opinion.

My reply was somewhat unbiased, but instead of asking, you simple felt offended and start to throw mud. Not a good start from your side.

Unlike you, I don't care for tekno's selling arguments, and i am able to decide myself what i like and what i don't like.

About your post; i find it unacceptable that you reply the rude way you do; i thought you normally help out people? the post made here don't show a helpful person.

Calling me a smartarse, and want to throw rocks at my head. Thanks for that.

woah flaming an admin huh? you do know he is almighty correct? ok im sorry for getting in on that, anyway i just drove the revo today with the 1515 1y, and off alot of jumps, i kept diving, couldnt understand it, i was on my way home and this thread popped in my head, like a freakin mallet hitting a gong, i woke up. duh! wish i would have been quicker might have saved my rear body post

You may want to heed your own advise, my friend. Of these "commercially available conversions" you mention - I would bet that nobody offers the range of conversion parts that RC-Monster does - nobody is even close to the number of vehicle conversion parts we offer(so I would say we are the majority) - and it is true that most or all of our mounts offer an allotment for mechanical brakes....BUT the majority use motor braking and not mechanical braking - and by a longshot.
Your quote of mechanical braking being more predictable isn't true, either - the fact is that electric motor braking will be more consistent - no mechanical parts to wear or cause fade. Electric braking can also be tuned for far more braking force vs. mechanical brakes. Don't confuse predictable or tunable handling with predictable braking - the electric brakes will be the same every time without fading(consistent and therefore predictable).
Using pure mechanical brakes will lower motor temps, and having the opportunity to adjust brake bias can have its tuning benefits as well - along with its detriments. I would say it is largely user preference - the mechanical brake's ability to tune bias can improve handling at the expense of more weight, complexity and work to get set up(worthwhile tradeoff to some, but certainly not the majority). Any "commercial" electric vehicle on the market uses motor braking - the idea of mechanical brakes was born because nitro vehicles have to use mechanical brakes - one benefit of electric is the simplicity - brakes come with the power system.

Basically, there is no "right" or "wrong" way to get it done, but simply different strategies and preferences that vary from user to user. There are far more bashers in the hobby than there are racers, and a basher will almost always prefer the simple electric motor braking - easy to install, easy to convert their vehicle and nothing to really tune - plug and play convenience at its best. A racer is far more likely to experiment with mechanical braking to tune front/rear bias, but this will be a matter of preference as well. Some like it, some don't. There is no right or wrong, but simply differing opinions and preferences. Personally, I think the "best" way to do it may be a hybrid setup - a small servo to mechanically brake the rear only, and motor braking for the center diff itself - a small servo can be used for minimal weight, and front/rear bias can be effectively tuned on your radio(with channel mixing). The tunability of pure mechanical brakes, but with lower weight, increased simplicity(mechanically) and easier "right now" tuning through the radio. I use motor braking on most of my stuff, though - the fact is driving electric vehicles is different than driving nitro vehicles, and I rather enjoy the pure simplicity of this strategy(and on about 95% of the tracks I race on, I haven't felt disadvantaged without the front/rear bias tunability) - I won't force my opinions on anyone else, though - or bother calling names and throwing stones at those who disagree.

Hey Daf,
Its been a while, nice to see you online
I have been racing my MBX5T with a NEU 1515 2Y for some time and I really don't notice much, if any, "drag brake" when jumping. I also run a 6 Pole Mega motor and I don't notice much, if any, "drag brake" on that truck either.

As for Brake setups, personally I would rather use motor braking on all my vehicles but I've found that cars with center diff's perform much better for me with brake bias (mostly rear only). Also, the Tekno guys use the 2 speed Revo trans which requires mech brakes due to the oneway bearing so the advantages they list aren't option's but requirements. :mdr:

I like Mikes Hybrid brake suggestion using a very small, light weight servo for rear brakes only and motor brakes for the remainng percentage of braking power you desire.