ROAR approval of non novak ESC's and Motors

Bob, when are you going to do the right thing for the sport and allow competitive designs or step down from being the ROAR approval committee.
This is bad for the sport and frankly makes ROAR look bad which explains the decline of ROAR and of on-road racing. the current spec is dated and smacks totally of protecting Novak - not the sport.

Andy

Originally Posted by alangsam

Bob, when are you going to do the right thing for the sport and allow competitive designs or step down from being the ROAR approval committee.
This is bad for the sport and frankly makes ROAR look bad which explains the decline of ROAR and of on-road racing. the current spec is dated and smacks totally of protecting Novak - not the sport.

Andy

If the current spec is there to protect Novak it is sure doing a bad job....
All of the "usual suspect" ROAR manufacturers have a ROAR legal motor.
Associated, Losi, Novak, Trinity, Tekin, Hacker and Schumacher all have stock motors, for modifieds you can throw in Orion and Hobbico as well.

I don't understand why certain manufacturers (perhaps based in the heartlands) think it is fair that ROAR changes to meet their needs. If they truly want to be involved in ROAR racing they could have come up with something that was ROAR approved by now.
I am sure at some point the rules will change, but then everyone will have to come up with something new. You cannot run a racing organization without rules so that cars can be quickly inspected, so there will always been rules.
Additionally with any bureaucracy change is slow. You cannot expect ROAR to have gone from brushed (turn based) motors straight to rpm/kv motors.

Originally Posted by cmcclive

If the current spec is there to protect Novak it is sure doing a bad job....
All of the "usual suspect" ROAR manufacturers have a ROAR legal motor.
Associated, Losi, Novak, Trinity, Tekin, Hacker and Schumacher all have stock motors, for modifieds you can throw in Orion and Hobbico as well.

I don't understand why certain manufacturers (perhaps based in the heartlands) think it is fair that ROAR changes to meet their needs. If they truly want to be involved in ROAR racing they could have come up with something that was ROAR approved by now.
I am sure at some point the rules will change, but then everyone will have to come up with something new. You cannot run a racing organization without rules so that cars can be quickly inspected, so there will always been rules.
Additionally with any bureaucracy change is slow. You cannot expect ROAR to have gone from brushed (turn based) motors straight to rpm/kv motors.

i appreciate your response. Isnt Bob head of the committee?
as an active on-road racer i am interested in the advancement of the technology. the current spec requires everyone to exactly replicate/copy the novak motor design down to the colors of the wires. this is not required to keep the integrity of the inspection process. this is an older design and frankly when you look at the motors you have listed they are basically identical. yes some of the OEM's have indeed done this but it isnt moving the sport forward and creating the environment to push the envelope. Why would they want to spend R&D to produce something with no differentiation other than the amount the brand can carry? We should expect ROAR to go from one to the other. They desperately need to move to avoid becoming irrelevant. It hasnt happend because Novak chose to promote the older design which is all they have vs change to rpm/kv.
I suspect as soon as novak decides to produce such a design ROAR specs will change, not before then. This is very obvious to the racing community.

[wade7575]

NovakTwo I'm not saying Bob or Novak is olny concerned with Novak be the olny ROAR approved motor's you can run in ROAR racing.But can you tell me this I have seen post's in other threads where you have implied Novak would welcome other Motor's to be approved for ROAR and racing,and if Bob does truly feel this way and feel'sthat this is hurting the Hobby by ROAR dictating to Joe racer he must use a Novak system if he want's to run in a Brushless class why does Bob not tell ROAR to get bent and either approve more motor's and ESC system's that comply with the rule's or we meaning Novak will stop making are motor ROAR compliant or just plain and simply just focus on the backyard basher setup`s.If you can not answer for Bob why Novak won`t just stop making ROAR compliant motors and focus on other thing`s please don`t cop out and just say something like I can not answer for Bob then please ask him and pass it along or if Bob won`t saying anything on this matter then that will give me all the info I need.

[NovakTwo]

Originally Posted by wade7575

NovakTwo I'm not saying Bob or Novak is olny concerned with Novak be the olny ROAR approved motor's you can run in ROAR racing.

But can you tell me this I have seen post's in other threads where you have implied Novak would welcome other Motor's to be approved for ROAR and racing,and if Bob does truly feel this way and feel'sthat this is hurting the Hobby by ROAR dictating to Joe racer he must use a Novak system if he want's to run in a Brushless class

why does Bob not tell ROAR to get bent and either approve more motor's and ESC system's that comply with the rule's or we meaning Novak will stop making are motor ROAR compliant or just plain and simply just focus on the backyard basher setup`s.

If you can not answer for Bob why Novak won`t just stop making ROAR compliant motors and focus on other thing`s please don`t cop out and just say something like I can not answer for Bob then please ask him and pass it along or if Bob won`t saying anything on this matter then that will give me all the info I need.

One of your suggestions here seems to be that if Novak is not completely happy with the existing ROAR motor rules, we should just pick up our marbles and go home. Or, hold our breath until we turn blue?

Maybe you could explain just why we would stop making motors that conform to the rules----I'm not getting your point. Novak sensored motors were specifically designed (by Novak, from the ground up) to be acceptable to racers competing in ROAR-type, 6-cell events.

You seem to believe that Bob has waay more authority over ROAR than he does or, even, wants. Also, Bob does not feel that the existing rules are hurting the hobby or racers. These rules actually seem to be working quite well. ROAR has published rules for both BL Modified racing and BL Stock racing. I do not see the Stock BL rules changing anytime soon.

The entire goal of the restrictive BL stock rules is limiting the variation in all motors sold to stock racers (for ROAR sanctioned events). Therefore, a specific wind motor (17.5) from one company should have virtually the same performance as the same wind motor sold by a competitor. This is designed to "level the playing field", take stock motor variation out of the racing equation and limit the "motor of the month" mentality.

Where motor rules may be expanded is in the Modified BL motor category. If you check any of my previous statements, you will probably notice the word "modified" is used. Companies interested in an expansion of the rules to include other designs know what the ROAR procedure is.

It is the responsibility of the company (ies) desiring the change to submit a formal proposal to ROAR (and the standing BL motor committee) detailing their proposed changes. It is not Novak's responsibility to undertake the project to convince the BL motor group to alter the existing mod rules.

[wade7575]

I'm not saying that Bob has super specail power and just cast's his spell on ROAR and he get's whatever he want's from them,I understand ROAR is slow to change but what I don't understand is why one company should have a monopoly.What I'm saying is this Novak has said in the past they would welcome other motor's in ROAR racing but seeing as that ROAR is slow to change and if Novak would welcome the change.

Tell me this if Tekin or some other ESC Motor Manufactor was told by ROAR go design and build it and we'll approve it,can you honestly say that Novak would'nt be complaining and asking why there being shut out.

All I'm trying to say is choice is nice,and as far as Novak picking up all there Marble's and going Home,I'm not trying to say that,all I'm trying to say is Novak should do the right thing and tell ROAR that they want to share there Marble's or ROAR may find themselves with no Marble's.

Why could other Company's that make motor's not make motor'sthat would have the same Torqueand RPM as a Novak motor,I know they may never be perfectly equal but there could be a Max RPM and Max Torque rule that any approved 17.5 can go over.

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by alangsam

i appreciate your response. Isnt Bob head of the committee?
as an active on-road racer i am interested in the advancement of the technology. the current spec requires everyone to exactly replicate/copy the novak motor design down to the colors of the wires. this is not required to keep the integrity of the inspection process. this is an older design and frankly when you look at the motors you have listed they are basically identical. yes some of the OEM's have indeed done this but it isnt moving the sport forward and creating the environment to push the envelope. Why would they want to spend R&D to produce something with no differentiation other than the amount the brand can carry? We should expect ROAR to go from one to the other. They desperately need to move to avoid becoming irrelevant. It hasnt happend because Novak chose to promote the older design which is all they have vs change to rpm/kv.
I suspect as soon as novak decides to produce such a design ROAR specs will change, not before then. This is very obvious to the racing community.

I would like to see these questions answered as well.

[NovakTwo]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

I would like to see these questions answered as well.

I thought that I had addressed these questions in an earlier post.

i appreciate your response. Isnt Bob head of the committee?

as an active on-road racer i am interested in the advancement of the technology. the current spec requires everyone to exactly replicate/copy the novak motor design down to the colors of the wires. this is not required to keep the integrity of the inspection process.

this is an older design and frankly when you look at the motors you have listed they are basically identical. yes some of the OEM's have indeed If novskdone this but it isnt moving the sport forward and creating the environment to push the envelope. Why would they want to spend R&D to produce something with no differentiation other than the amount the brand can carry?

We should expect ROAR to go from one to the other. They desperately need to move to avoid becoming irrelevant. It hasnt happend because Novak chose to promote the older design which is all they have vs change to rpm/kv.

I suspect as soon as novak decides to produce such a design ROAR specs will change, not before then. This is very obvious to the racing community.

Bob is not now, nor has he ever been, head of the ROAR brushless motor committee.

The entire goal of the ROAR stock rules was to nail down the specs so that all motors sold for ROAR stock racing would have virtually the same performance. Any motor sellers, who want to offer motors for stock, have to follow these rules. So far, 8 companies have had their motors approved for Stock racing.

ROAR rules require the specific colors, and sequencing of the sensor wires.

If Novak designs a new motor, we would have to follow the ROAR guidelines for submitting a proposal to amend the existing rules. Then all members of the BL motor committee would have to vote in favor of amending the rules to accommodate our new proposal. Not very likely.

[wade7575]

I think if ROAR really cared they never should have asked Bob anything about designing a Brushless motor for ROAR and instead should have asked Bob and 3 to 4 other ESC and Motor maker's to sit in on the meeting and ROAR should have old them to all go away and don't come back until all of you can agree on a common design.If it would have been done this way then no one could be saying that one company and olny one is looking out for there own vested interest.But if you ask me the whole thing still stink's.

[NovakTwo]

Hi Andy,

I'm not Bob, but I'll take a stab at answering your question. ROAR established a BL Motor Manufacturers' Committee before the deliberation over the BL Spec rules that were established earlier this year. All manufacturers and resellers of brushless motors, who were interested in offering motors for ROAR-style racing, were invited to join.

This committee consisted of reps from most of the major companies (including CC and Tekin), whether or not they were currently offering BL motors for sale. It was this group of companies, not Bob alone, who voted on the decision about the specifications for the stock/spec BL motor that were later accepted by ROAR.

Once the spec rules were finalized, the companies were more comfortable in committing resources to tooling up their own BL motors that conformed to the criteria established for stock brushless motors. Here is the list of motors (companies) submitted to ROAR for approval:

ROAR Brushless Motor Approvals

Any motor company, that wishes to have the BL committee consider a change to the existing rules, must submit a formal proposal to ROAR to be debated by this standing group of manufacturers.

Originally Posted by alangsam

Bob, when are you going to do the right thing for the sport and allow competitive designs or step down from being the ROAR approval committee.
This is bad for the sport and frankly makes ROAR look bad which explains the decline of ROAR and of on-road racing. the current spec is dated and smacks totally of protecting Novak - not the sport.

Andy

[SpEEdyBL]

Give Novak a break. There is an organization called ROAR that sanctions races, and they happen to have rules. If you don't want to follow their rules, then don't race in their races. How difficult can that be to understand?

Simple suggestion: get your local track to sanction a race and allow any motor.

Or, if you are really worked up, start your own organization with the hundreds of other angry racing and call it ANYTHING GOES or something like that.

My understanding is that novak was the company to step up and ended up being the first to submit a motor that the rules could be based around. Obviously nobody like castle or hacker intervened. They could have, but they didn't. And obviously, it was agreed upon by several companies.

I've owned plenty of motors and the the only real difference between the coreless wide rotor style motors that castle uses vs. the novak motors in performance is the feel. One isn't more powerful than the other. If you want a specific power, torque, speed combination, all you have to do is select the wind and the gearing. For practical use, there is no combination that one type of motor can do and the other cannot.

Yes, I mentioned the feel (or throttle response) of each type of motor is a bit differen't, but suppose ROAR rules were based on the castle motor instead and involved strict requirements. Then you have people who like whatever it is about the novak style motor complaining. And nope, you couldn't run a neu motor either because its wider. So no matter how you have it, plenty of motors are restricted and plenty of people complain.

[TexasSP]

I will give Novak the credit for the above. Heck trinity several years ago had a page on their website stating how "bad" brushless motors were and how they were not more efficient/faster/better/etcetera than brushed motors.

However there is no escaping the fact the the roar rules are very conveniently catered to the Novak design. roar itself needs to step out of the dark ages of old school bureaucracy and allow more free flow of ideas. roar ways only stifle the RC hobby. Thankfully the it's the heli/airplane/boat people that have been the driving force of electric advancement. Of course the governing bodies of the air/water hobbies are much more receptive to advancement.

I think the biggest issue most people have stated is the fact the is so obvious to all who look at it. Bob has an extreme amount of inlfuence on roar admit it or not.

[Arct1k]

I equate ROAR to the FIA running F1 - At the end of the day they are actually trying to constrain development to create a more level playing field.

They are trying to make it a driver driven hobby rather a kit driven hobby... It is interesting to see that the "hotest" car race at my local track is now "Stock Slash" - The only thing you can change is to the optional pinion!

[NovakTwo]

With the acceptance of BL motors and lipo batteries, a couple of the big problems of competition racing were solved, Big races had become a battery war, and to a lesser extent a motor war.

Those companies that could control batteries----by going through thousands of cells, to select the best for their factory drivers, had a deleterious effect on competition. Factories, who sent special motor "tuners" to races, also had an unfair advantage. After all, if some tuner invests hundreds of dollars of time in a $50.00 motor, chances are the motor will be superior to those "off the shelf" items.

So, for now, the playing field is more level than in many years. Not much can be done to the lipo packs. And the brushless motors don't yet offer much of an opportunity to cheat. So the factories can concentrate on what they really want to sell---kits.