New Arizona SB1070 Law

[Finnster]

Don't worry Jerry, your not going to offend me w/ opinions. Essentially I approach this problem as a pragmatist and am skeptical of the idological BS that seems to frame political issues these days.

I do absolutely agree that there is a problem w/ uncontrolled immigration and lack of coherent Federal policy, and states like AZ bear the brunt of it. I grew up in CO, so we had our fair share of illegals too. I also strongly agree there should be a low tolerance to criminality for any guests in this country. There are far too many hardworking and motivated people who would love to come here to tolerate anyone's bull$hit.
However, not only do I think this law will do much to stop II, I do fundamentally disagree with the notion that we should be making laws that everyone needs to carry gov't papers with them at all times, and that is a crime to not seem American enough if you get caught w/o your papers. Yeah I'm white, so even tho AZ promises there will be no racial profiling, everyone is going along w/ it with the implicit guarantee that the LEOs are only going to be after brown people. The AZ gov basically admits it by omission.

My cousin in Utah is married to a Bolivian, who is a citizen and is earning a law degree, and if they visit AZ, and if he decides he's going to take a walk in the park or go for a hike with his girls and he doesn't bring his wallet, my cousin shouldn't be getting a phone call from an INS detention facility that her family got arrested bc Dad still speaks with an accent and his english is still a bit rough. That's just F'd up and I don't care who you are.

Also, I work in the science field and we manufacture medical devices. I do think America is very skilled at manufacturing. We have European (or better) level of quality for much less expensive. The products China build are cheaper, but far inferior in quality and trustworthiness. We lose out on the low end as sometimes crappy is good enough.

However, on the high end, what I am not seeing is many Americans with the skills and education to do the technical jobs. Just in my area I work with people (scientists/engineers) from China, India, Nigeria, Kenya, Sudan, Poland, Russia, Czech R., Philippenes, Pakistan, Greece, UK, Hiati, Dom Rep, Puerto Rico, Costa Rica, Brazil, Camaroon, to name a few. I'm not sure Americans are even the majority.
My brother in law is a Chem E professor and its a similar story. Few qualified American graduate students to choose from, so the dept accepts many students from India and China with the neccessary background and accomplishment.
Nursing school is another good example of this.

So the question I ask, why are all these Americans out protesting and complaining about Mexicans coming and stealing their shitty jobs digging ditches for $8/hr? If your job is easily replacable by an illiterate from a 3rd world country, then you need to get your ass back to school and get a better education because there are thousands of high paying jobs going to legal H1 visa holders who have little American competition. Its rather pathetic actually given the opportunity citizens are born into here.

I also think low wage Mexicans/etc also contribute alot to American business competitiveness. I think the nation could do a lot more "low end" manufacturing combining American management techniques, innovation, and solid infrastructure with low wage guest workers to keep labor costs low, thus prices low, to compete better with crappy Chinese goods. Alot of other things need to happen too, but we also have to get over the xenophobia and start looking at the business opportunities. IMO, the Mexican infracture is too poor and the govt too corrupt to effectively utilize their low wage resource. We can take advantage of that for everyone's benefit.

If in the end we send a portion of this prosperity back to Mexico to build that country, enlarge the middle class, are create a larger consumer economy for American goods, all the better for us. The future prosperity for America is not going to be built on protectionism and low skill jobs for lazy & lowly educated natives. The world is catching up and we need to work harder and be smarter if we want to keep the privledges we have.

[lutach]

Finnster nailed it. Like I said in my posts, a lot of people are not pointing the finger at the source of the problem. I can guarantee, if the US Gov, gives the so called Illegal some sort of Tax I.D. Number like many Brasilians I know have, they would have to pay their taxes like everyone else. If they don't follow through, legal actions should be taken afterwards. I just hope the Mexican Gov. doesn't close down all the US or other foreign factories and/or companies in Mexico. Think about it now, Castle has a manufacturing place in Mexico. If that happens there, you will know other countries will probably do the same which is not good for any of us here in the USA.

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by Finnster

My cousin in Utah is married to a Bolivian, who is a citizen and is earning a law degree, and if they visit AZ, and if he decides he's going to take a walk in the park or go for a hike with his girls and he doesn't bring his wallet, my cousin shouldn't be getting a phone call from an INS detention facility that her family got arrested bc Dad still speaks with an accent and his english is still a bit rough. That's just F'd up and I don't care who you are.

You say you don't fall into ideological BS yet this statement is just that. Go read the law first then comment. It's only ten pages long. It specifically addresses racial profiling and also specifically addresses that a law enforcement officer cannot simply stop someone for suspicion of being illegal. What it does do is allow them to check the immigration status of people they have stopped for other law violations. The law also specifically states that the officers most uphold and follow ALL federal laws and guidelines regarding immigration policy.

Again read the law and stop quoting Napolitano/Holder/Pelosi/Calderon/Obama and the rest of the people quoting garbage that has no resemblance to the truth.

So don't claim to not be an ideologue when clearly your views and points all clearly reflections of liberal/socialist philosophy.

I cannot also understand the talk about ID cards and SS numbers to get these people legal when in fact they are breaking the law by their own wheel in the first place. What makes you think just because congress enacts something like that all of the illegals would jump in line, start paying their taxes!

Stop the handouts and enforce the laws we have now.

Last point specifically to Lutach:

If an American citizen wants to work these so called crappy jobs it's their right. What makes you so superior to say the American citizen shouldn't but the illegal immigrant can? There are many people no matter how much school that won't have the mental capacity to do much above ditch digging and other manual remedial labor. In turn I have had people like this who work for me and they have some of the best work ethics I have ever seen hands down. I paid them well and treated just like any other employee I had working for me.

Several of my closest friends are immigrants, however they came here legally and went through the correct process to obtain legalized status be it visa, green card, or full citizenship. Why should others get to bypass the processes simply because they want to?

One of mine and my wife's closest friends is from Mexico city, she immigrated legally as a teenager with her parents and now has two children who were born here. She has been trying to gain citizenship for over ten years and has to fight to keep her status. She also works, pays taxes, and is a productive person. Tell me why an illegal should just be handed the rights and privileges she has worked so hard for?

What many cannot seem to get through their heads is that most of these people do not want to pay taxes. They want the handouts and freebies that come with crossing the border illegally. Like BrianG said, cut this out and most of them will leave because the incentive to come will be gone. The good ones will work on immigrating legally like it should be.

[lutach]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

Last point specifically to Lutach:

If an American citizen wants to work these so called crappy jobs it's their right. What makes you so superior to say the American citizen shouldn't but the illegal immigrant can? There are many people no matter how much school that won't have the mental capacity to do much above ditch digging and other manual remedial labor. In turn I have had people like this who work for me and they have some of the best work ethics I have ever seen hands down. I paid them well and treated just like any other employee I had working for me.

Several of my closest friends are immigrants, however they came here legally and went through the correct process to obtain legalized status be it visa, green card, or full citizenship. Why should others get to bypass the processes simply because they want to?

One of mine and my wife's closest friends is from Mexico city, she immigrated legally as a teenager with her parents and now has two children who were born here. She has been trying to gain citizenship for over ten years and has to fight to keep her status. She also works, pays taxes, and is a productive person. Tell me why an illegal should just be handed the rights and privileges she has worked so hard for?

What many cannot seem to get through their heads is that most of these people do not want to pay taxes. They want the handouts and freebies that come with crossing the border illegally. Like BrianG said, cut this out and most of them will leave because the incentive to come will be gone. The good ones will work on immigrating legally like it should be.

You failed to see my point. A business owner is always trying to save money. A lot of people I know that have been fired, laid off or what ever other way of saying it are on unemployment just for the fact they won't work in a job that pays less. Maybe they are too proud or just embarrassed. I'm a business owner and in my line of business one needs to know multiple languages, so it kind of favors an immigrant, but I would never get an illegal immigrant to work for me like the big construction companies are doing. I know many illegal Brasilian immigrants that do pay taxes due to the fact they have a Tax I.D. Number. I myself am a legal resident. I've been here since I was 10 and have yet to decide if I should become a US citizen. I do carry all my I.D.s with me at all times. I'm not trying to protect the illegal immigrant here, but they are not the source of the problem. The one who employees them is and the economy now is not caused by illegal immigrants. I also know a lot of people who came here legally, but when they tried to get their green cards, they were denied, so now they are the so called illegal, but have Tax I.D. Numbers and works legally due to it and pay their taxes like anybody else. This will affect them and it doesn't seem right. I also don't see the illegal immigrants near my area going to the super market using food stamps, I do see whites and blacks doing it (Sorry again for bringing skin color to the chat). One example was a lady who had 4 kids with her. She had a shopping cart full and so did the oldest kid. She used her food stamp credit card to pay for everything and more. The more is she asked the cashier for $175 back. I bet she the the others I see are also on other Gov. plans as well. Do you think she's the only one doing that? Is it fair for everyone else?

Illegal Immigrants don't put a dent in the employment situation mainly because the jobs they do you wouldn't do and the economy because they didn't cause the mess the world is in today. They do support business' as they have to buy food, clothe and other things they need. Ask the US to send them all back and we will see the affect of it and it's not going to be pretty.

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by lutach

Illegal Immigrants don't put a dent in the employment situation mainly because the jobs they do you wouldn't do and the economy because they didn't cause the mess the world is in today. They do support business' as they have to buy food, clothe and other things they need. Ask the US to send them all back and we will see the affect of it and it's not going to be pretty.

You contradict yourself here though. On one hand you say the illegal immigrants have little effect but on the other you say they do.

What are these jobs that not single natural born US citizen won't do exactly?

As for being bilingual why does the immigrant have the advantage? I know plenty of bilingual natural born citizens. What about an immigrant from another English speaking country? What advantage do they have? It seems to me you favor immigrants because you are an immigrant.

It really seems as though you want to paint in broad strokes natural born US citizens as being stupid, lazy, and wanting to much money for a job while praising all immigrants as being smart, hard working, and willing to work for much less.

Like BrianG said laziness and stupidity knows no racial background or country of origin. There are plenty of these all over the world.

As far as the welfare and handouts go I want it stopped for everyone. No just illegal immigrants and not just Hispanic people. Caucasians, African-Americans, Hispanics, Asians, and so on all need to have the cord cut.

Finally you must understand that the problem with illegal immigration is not just the employment as that is only one small factor. It is the criminal activity, the hand outs, and the other problems it brings with it. Go take a look at pictures from border crossings on the Arizona border, Texas too. The shear amount of trash left behind is enough to make your stomach turn. Then you have the people who live in these areas who are constantly being robbed, the property being trashed and vandalized, dead bodies being found. This is real and one of the most important issues regarding illegal immigration.

[lutach]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

You contradict yourself here though. On one hand you say the illegal immigrants have little effect but on the other you say they do.

What are these jobs that not single natural born US citizen won't do exactly?

As for being bilingual why does the immigrant have the advantage? I know plenty of bilingual natural born citizens. What about an immigrant from another English speaking country? What advantage do they have? It seems to me you favor immigrants because you are an immigrant.

It really seems as though you want to paint in broad strokes natural born US citizens as being stupid, lazy, and wanting to much money for a job while praising all immigrants as being smart, hard working, and willing to work for much less.

Like BrianG said laziness and stupidity knows no racial background or country of origin. There are plenty of these all over the world.

As far as the welfare and handouts go I want it stopped for everyone. No just illegal immigrants and not just Hispanic people. Caucasians, African-Americans, Hispanics, Asians, and so on all need to have the cord cut.

You have to look beyond just what is happening in the USA to know what I mean. The issue will go deeper then what is seen in the news. Countries will get involved and when those countries supplying the US with many of the things US people needs, then you'll see exactly my point.

Would you cut someone's grass, trim their trees, clean the pool, clean their homes, wash the dishes, pick fruits and vegetables that machines can't do, collect garbage and so forth?

As a business owner I need to make as much profit as I can to keep my business going as well as pay my bill and buy things my family needs. So why would I hire someone asking for $45K then someone willing to do the same job for $25K? Like I said, look at the source of the problem and that is the one who employees the illegal. Yes, I do favor someone who is from another country, because of accent propose only. I have twin little brothers born here and their Portuguese is awful. You also failed to see where I wrote, that I wouldn't give an illegal immigrant employment. So you're missing a few points I'm trying to get across. Yes, I'm proud to be a Brasilian, US legal immigrant who pays a shit load in taxes and raises a beautiful daughter (US citizen) as a single parent.

That one is your opinion because that's not how I see it. You said that not me. I used to be a stock broker and the guys I worked with and for are some of the brightest guys I know. I learned how to sell because of them. The point I'm trying to make is the fact that people think it's only the illegal immigrant's fault, but they failed to see who gives them jobs.

The last 2, I agree with you 100%.

I do not favor anyone and I would love to see everyone work legally. Now as far a taxes goes, what are our tax money used for? It would be good if they give the Illegal the Tax I.D. Number I mentioned a few times, so they can pay taxes as well and if they don't they should get punished for their actions. More taxes for the USA more money to do what ever.

So I'll say this one more time. Want illegal immigrants to stop coming here, ask the money hungry corporate bastards to stop giving them jobs. It's that simple. With no money, they'll have to go back to their country or go to another country.

[snellemin]

Originally Posted by lutach

I do not favor anyone and I would love to see everyone work legally. Now as far a taxes goes, what are our tax money used for? It would be good if they give the Illegal the Tax I.D. Number I mentioned a few times, so they can pay taxes as well and if they don't they should get punished for their actions. More taxes for the USA more money to do what ever.

So I'll say this one more time. Want illegal immigrants to stop coming here, ask the money hungry corporate bastards to stop giving them jobs. It's that simple. With no money, they'll have to go back to their country or go to another country.

I agree with this.

And I love fast RC's too.

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by lutach

I do not favor anyone and I would love to see everyone work legally. Now as far a taxes goes, what are our tax money used for? It would be good if they give the Illegal the Tax I.D. Number I mentioned a few times, so they can pay taxes as well and if they don't they should get punished for their actions. More taxes for the USA more money to do what ever.

So I'll say this one more time. Want illegal immigrants to stop coming here, ask the money hungry corporate bastards to stop giving them jobs. It's that simple. With no money, they'll have to go back to their country or go to another country.

The problem I have with the first is that they have a way to do this now. They can file for legal immigration status ie a visa then pay taxes.

We should also be punishing anyone who hires illegals as well, no argument there.

As for the landscaping part, I have done it. I also take care of my own. I also have a good friend in the landscaping business who has several Caucasians including his brother that works for him. He also started the business himself doing the work himself. This even after being a college graduate from Texas A&M University. Sorry, I know too many people who do these things and do not buy into "they do the jobs other American's won't".

To your other point about employees that deal can go both ways. I am a business owner too and have worked for corporations and see both sides.

Case in point was several years back when I was looking for a CNC Machinist/Programmer. I had people submitting resumes who I could have gotten for 15 an hour as a basic machinist. However, they could not meat my needs as a programmer and advanced operator. I had to have someone in the 25-30 dollar per hour range as no one with those qualifications would work for less be it Hispanic, Caucasian, or any other race. By the way, the person I did end up hiring was an immigrant here legally from Scotland. He was/is an awesome machinist and programmer I might add!

Taking your example into consideration I would also be highly suspect as to the quality of work or the ability to do the job from someone who would take 25k per year to do a job that typically pays 45k per year.

As for someone refusing to "lower" themselves when they are out of work, that is a different story. But there are caveats there as well. I found that while I was unemployed people were nervous of hiring for a job I was technically "over qualified" for. Most likely because they had the belief that as soon as something better came along I would be gone. This same issue has been seen by others I know.

There are also employers out there that will purposely low ball you an offer because they think you are desperate and they can get more for less just because. That is a good reason as not to act desperate when job searching even if you truly are.

[lutach]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

The problem I have with the first is that they have a way to do this now. They can file for legal immigration status ie a visa then pay taxes.

We should also be punishing anyone who hires illegals as well, no argument there.

As for the landscaping part, I have done it. I also take care of my own. I also have a good friend in the landscaping business who has several Caucasians including his brother that works for him. He also started the business himself doing the work himself. This even after being a college graduate from Texas A&M University. Sorry, I know too many people who do these things and do not buy into "they do the jobs other American's won't".

To your other point about employees that deal can go both ways. I am a business owner too and have worked for corporations and see both sides.

Case in point was several years back when I was looking for a CNC Machinist/Programmer. I had people submitting resumes who I could have gotten for 15 an hour as a basic machinist. However, they could not meat my needs as a programmer and advanced operator. I had to have someone in the 25-30 dollar per hour range as no one with those qualifications would work for less be it Hispanic, Caucasian, or any other race. By the way, the person I did end up hiring was an immigrant here legally from Scotland. He was/is an awesome machinist and programmer I might add!

Taking your example into consideration I would also be highly suspect as to the quality of work or the ability to do the job from someone who would take 25k per year to do a job that typically pays 45k per year.

As for someone refusing to "lower" themselves when they are out of work, that is a different story. But there are caveats there as well. I found that while I was unemployed people were nervous of hiring for a job I was technically "over qualified" for. Most likely because they had the belief that as soon as something better came along I would be gone. This same issue has been seen by others I know.

There are also employers out there that will purposely low ball you an offer because they think you are desperate and they can get more for less just because. That is a good reason as not to act desperate when job searching even if you truly are.

Good points. In the economic situation we are in today, people will be quick to point the finger and most of the time they are pointing in the wrong direction. I see more and more companies letting people go so the shareholders and executives can still pocket their big paychecks knowing too well the employees made them that money. I for one would love to get someone to help me make more sales, but I haven't found a single person that can sales as good or better then me and that includes family and friends. I hope things works out for the best.

[JERRY2KONE]

Originally Posted by finnster

don't worry jerry, your not going to offend me w/ opinions. Essentially i approach this problem as a pragmatist and am skeptical of the idological bs that seems to frame political issues these days.

I do absolutely agree that there is a problem w/ uncontrolled immigration and lack of coherent federal policy, and states like az bear the brunt of it. I grew up in co, so we had our fair share of illegals too. I also strongly agree there should be a low tolerance to criminality for any guests in this country. There are far too many hardworking and motivated people who would love to come here to tolerate anyone's bull$hit.
However, not only do i think this law will do much to stop ii, i do fundamentally disagree with the notion that we should be making laws that everyone needs to carry gov't papers with them at all times, and that is a crime to not seem american enough if you get caught w/o your papers. Yeah i'm white, so even tho az promises there will be no racial profiling, everyone is going along w/ it with the implicit guarantee that the leos are only going to be after brown people. The az gov basically admits it by omission.

now see that is whats confusing. We are already required to carry id. Every adult is ither suposed to have a drivers license, or a state id if you do not drive. Even kids are supposed to be carrying a school id of some kind. You have to hold proper id to drink alcohol, purchase smokes, or enter any adult establihsment. So how is this any inconvenience at all.

my cousin in utah is married to a bolivian, who is a citizen and is earning a law degree, and if they visit az, and if he decides he's going to take a walk in the park or go for a hike with his girls and he doesn't bring his wallet, my cousin shouldn't be getting a phone call from an ins detention facility that her family got arrested bc dad still speaks with an accent and his english is still a bit rough. That's just f'd up and i don't care who you are.

no one should be without an id, and if one goes out without id then you take that risk of being questioned. Like i stated we are not living in the 1930's anymore.

also, i work in the science field and we manufacture medical devices. I do think america is very skilled at manufacturing. We have european (or better) level of quality for much less expensive. The products china build are cheaper, but far inferior in quality and trustworthiness. We lose out on the low end as sometimes crappy is good enough.

However, on the high end, what i am not seeing is many americans with the skills and education to do the technical jobs. Just in my area i work with people (scientists/engineers) from china, india, nigeria, kenya, sudan, poland, russia, czech r., philippenes, pakistan, greece, uk, hiati, dom rep, puerto rico, costa rica, brazil, camaroon, to name a few. I'm not sure americans are even the majority.
My brother in law is a chem e professor and its a similar story. Few qualified american graduate students to choose from, so the dept accepts many students from india and china with the neccessary background and accomplishment.
Nursing school is another good example of this.

that is the perfect example of the laziness of americans i was talking about earlier. We have become a nation of spoiled ungreatful people who expect that nothing is going to change. How sad is that?

so the question i ask, why are all these americans out protesting and complaining about mexicans coming and stealing their shitty jobs digging ditches for $8/hr? If your job is easily replacable by an illiterate from a 3rd world country, then you need to get your ass back to school and get a better education because there are thousands of high paying jobs going to legal h1 visa holders who have little american competition. Its rather pathetic actually given the opportunity citizens are born into here.

I also think low wage mexicans/etc also contribute alot to american business competitiveness. I think the nation could do a lot more "low end" manufacturing combining american management techniques, innovation, and solid infrastructure with low wage guest workers to keep labor costs low, thus prices low, to compete better with crappy chinese goods. Alot of other things need to happen too, but we also have to get over the xenophobia and start looking at the business opportunities. Imo, the mexican infracture is too poor and the govt too corrupt to effectively utilize their low wage resource. We can take advantage of that for everyone's benefit.

If in the end we send a portion of this prosperity back to mexico to build that country, enlarge the middle class, are create a larger consumer economy for american goods, all the better for us. The future prosperity for america is not going to be built on protectionism and low skill jobs for lazy & lowly educated natives. The world is catching up and we need to work harder and be smarter if we want to keep the privledges we have.

life is good