Regenerative breaking on MMM

So, you'll notice none of the questions I ask are anything like anyone else's because, well, I'm a freak.

I am working on a diesel powered vehicle for a Biofuel race from Berkeley CA to Las Vegas NV. Basically, no matter what, we can start with 1 gallon of gasoline's worth of energy (battery charge, biodiesel, granola for the hippies on bikes.) All other energy needs to be collected AND processed during the trip from biomass. I want to try and make it on one gallon.

SO

I am working on the idea of a parallel hybrid system using an electric motor to get up to speed and a small diesel engine to generate electricity and power the vehicle at speeds fitting it's point of peak efficiency.

How would I generate power? Simply by applying a small amount of parasitic drag with the electric motor when the vehicle is running under diesel power until a desired battery level was reached (20% to 0% drag, depending on power levels.)

I'd probably be using 4ah leadacid for the battery source, which should accept a charge fairly readily.

How effective is the drag break at recollecting energy on the CC controllers, or is it simply a shunt that isn't useful for collecting power?

Thanks!

P.S. I just got my V3 in the mail this morning. That's for another robotic project, though.

[TexasSP]

The regenerative braking on the controllers is simply a done so as there is a place to put the energy created per Patrick. To keep things from over heating it goes into the batteries however as I understand it doesn't create a significant amount of energy.

So it uses the battery as a load, not really as a means to recover much energy. Maybe it would still be enough to make this usable. The idea is to simply avoid the complexity of a transmission and to have a hyper efficient power train once the diesel is at speed. 99% of the drive time would be at speed.

Originally Posted by TexasSP

The regenerative braking on the controllers is simply a done so as there is a place to put the energy created per Patrick. To keep things from over heating it goes into the batteries however as I understand it doesn't create a significant amount of energy.

[Pdelcast]

The braking is regenerative because it has to be -- can't dump that much energy anywhere but back into the battery. (The battery is used as a load, but using a battery as a load mean charging the battery...)

It is not, however, optimized.

Still gets fairly good efficiency up to about 35% braking power -- above that the conversion efficiency gets lower.

[johnrobholmes]

It would be easier (and probably more efficient) to use a nice brushed motor as a generator (dynamo) direct from the engine. Use this to charge your battery and run the electric drive system.

[tc3_racer_001]

like an alternator???

[VintageMA]

You may want to consider looking into how regenerative braking is performed on trains and subways. Ya know that burst of heat you feel coming from a subway is from the motor being used as a generator and dumping it's load through huge resistor banks. Then there are some systems where the generated energy is dumped back into the grid.

There may be more documentation available out there on how this is done - and much easier with a brushed motor (as mentioned) - then with a BL one.

[BrianG]

Originally Posted by johnrobholmes

It would be easier (and probably more efficient) to use a nice brushed motor as a generator (dynamo) direct from the engine. Use this to charge your battery and run the electric drive system.

Could use a BL motor and use a 3-phase bridge rectifier, since that is somewhat how an alternator works...

No matter what, the energy you expend will be more you capture because of efficiency losses. But, if your biodiesel engine can be freed from the stop and go part (and the inefficiencies that entails), maybe it will overcome the inefficiency of the added electric motor drag.

So at, say, 50% breaking, efficiency of regeneration is lessened?

Meaning 20% breaking is within the "optimal range" what ever that percentage of regeneration is. I don't need high efficiency here. I just need simplicity.

I want the control loop to be simple (adjust numbers as needed):

If voltage > 12, run at 0% parasitic drag break.
If 12 > voltage > 11.5 , run at 10% parasitic drag break.
If voltage < 11.5 , run at 20% parasitic drag break.

The idea is to float around 3ah out of 4ah of charge capacity in the battery giving me enough of a buffer before I over charge if I use the MMM as the breaking mechanisms instead of relying (completely) on mechanical breaking.

Think the MMM can run for 20 hours straight, at 12 volts, doing next to nothing? ;-)

Originally Posted by Pdelcast

The braking is regenerative because it has to be -- can't dump that much energy anywhere but back into the battery. (The battery is used as a load, but using a battery as a load mean charging the battery...)

It is not, however, optimized.

Still gets fairly good efficiency up to about 35% braking power -- above that the conversion efficiency gets lower.

That's the idea.

Originally Posted by BrianG

Could use a BL motor and use a 3-phase bridge rectifier, since that is somewhat how an alternator works...

No matter what, the energy you expend will be more you capture because of efficiency losses. But, if your biodiesel engine can be freed from the stop and go part (and the inefficiencies that entails), maybe it will overcome the inefficiency of the added electric motor drag.

nah, each point of the conversion has loss. Fuel to mechanical to electrical to battery to electrical to mechanical. I want to go from fuel to mechanical as efficiently as possibly with some waste to electrical to allow the mechanical to be as simple as possible. More simple than the average card with a 5 speed tranny.

Originally Posted by johnrobholmes

It would be easier (and probably more efficient) to use a nice brushed motor as a generator (dynamo) direct from the engine. Use this to charge your battery and run the electric drive system.

[auto2]

use AIR flow to recharge the battery . also install a set of bicycle pedals where the gas and brake belong . or use virbration to charge the batterys. i saw a flashlight you had to shake to build up a charge. the shocks could do that.

[johnrobholmes]

I was just thinking about a way to get rid of the first conversion from 3 phase. If you can build an easy rectifier you are good. Braking with the MMM will be regenerative no matter what, so unless you are using a freewheel on the driveline you will get back a few percent. Using a MMM on the generator side would be a horrible idea IMO, the efficiency is not there for generator use.


What is the goal of the project? Maximum distance, minimum fuel expenditure over a specified distance?

Originally Posted by auto2

use AIR flow to recharge the battery . also install a set of bicycle pedals where the gas and brake belong . or use virbration to charge the batterys. i saw a flashlight you had to shake to build up a charge. the shocks could do that.

If I were going to collect waste energy, it would be from the heat off of the cylinder.

That's a good idea and something I'll play with, but I am thinking the power I'll need for acceleration will be so trivial that it's not a very important that i make the perfect generator.

This is to make wacky shit and learn new stuff and promote bio fuels and hang out with cool people and get chicks... making it to Las Vegas is optional

Originally Posted by johnrobholmes

I was just thinking about a way to get rid of the first conversion from 3 phase. If you can build an easy rectifier you are good. Braking with the MMM will be regenerative no matter what, so unless you are using a freewheel on the driveline you will get back a few percent. Using a MMM on the generator side would be a horrible idea IMO, the efficiency is not there for generator use.


What is the goal of the project? Maximum distance, minimum fuel expenditure over a specified distance?